MB Thread Comment

microstrip · Feb 12, 2017

ack said:
(...) As far as MB goes, an over-hyped product without verifiable data and science is bordering a miracle - do you guys believe in miracles? We here will be listening to these cables soon, and I bet we will have more measured words to describe the sound. I also just noticed this post from Marty http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19340-Shunyata-Venom-Phono-cable&p=435611#post435611 expressing a little reservation:

And finally, I find personal attacks and innuendos (especially from manufacturers) just simply boring. And I am not referring to you.

Be good.

ack,

Perhaps you are not seeing that your post can be considered intrinsically an attack to the high-end. We do not have verifiable data and science on most of the high-end, most of the time we have just possible explanations on technical aspects that can correlate with our preferences.

Unfortunately the original thread was closed at the point I would have interesting thinks on hypothetical science to explain the poor text of the MB site (or btw, the sites of many other devices using dielectrics), but surely not how they work. I could happily go on debating with Al. or other friendly posters. But the thread went in a personal vendetta against the high end, supported by hasty conclusions driven by an aggressive court style that is not compatible with my timing or any science discussion, IMHO. It is regrettable that in name of the open mind of the high-end, people who are intrinsically against the essence of it - individual or small group preference - come here just to ruin threads on products just because of personal conflicts with their owners or dealers.

Forgive my answer - but I usually read your post with interest - you are a DIY person and love modifying equipment using components that have no scientific support at all - IMHO this shows an extremely open mind towards sound reproduction - I hope you and others understand my view on the MB cables.

ack · Feb 12, 2017

microstrip said:
you are a DIY person and love modifying equipment using components that have no scientific support at all

Who says the components I use have no scientific support... what do you think the low ESR values of the capacitors I use are all about... voodoo? I'll ignore your entire post.

microstrip · Feb 12, 2017

Al M. said:
I didn't think the thread went toxic. There were just technical concerns voiced that some found unpleasant.

Perhaps it was inappropriate to suggest that Steve wasn't entitled to change his mind on issues, and to hold past statements against him. I change my mind all the time, and sometimes even laugh about my past opinions. In fact, the inability to change your mind is not intellectual strength, but intellectual, as well as emotional, weakness. So I am firmly on Steve's side on this one.

And no, I don't think Don has anything to apologize for. I do appreciate his opening post here, a true gentleman indeed.

IMHO the debate was not on technical concerns, it was on the use of technical words in an apparently meaningless sentence for marketing purposes.

I think everyone agrees that if a manufacturer decides not to disclose any technical details, and no one has them, technical concerns are just speculation. IMHO two words created the emotional debate - "superconductor" and "free-radical". IMHO both can be technically connected to the performance of the MB cables, but indirectly.

PeterA · Feb 12, 2017

ack said:
Jack, thanks for reaching out. First of all, I will never ever spend anywhere near what you quoted on cables. Second, personally, happiness has nothing to do with material things, but if this stuff makes you guys happy, I am happy for you. The family went to the BSO last night to listen to Symphonie Fantastique, and it was Ravishing; I was shaking my head toward the end, in pure disbelief - that's what makes me happy. Meantime, I and others continue to debate just the merits of the products themselves, and not the posters.

As far as MB goes, an over-hyped product without verifiable data and science is bordering a miracle - do you guys believe in miracles? We here will be listening to these cables soon, and I bet we will have more measured words to describe the sound. I also just noticed this post from Marty http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19340-Shunyata-Venom-Phono-cable&p=435611#post435611 expressing a little reservation:

Sounds like a great concert, ack. I am sorry I missed it.

Given the level of discussion about these cables on this forum, I wonder if I would be able to approach the listening with anything like an open mind. I hope I will be able to join you to find out. Expectation bias has already permeated my thinking about these cables. I have tried to remain respectful of the opinions expressed by those who have heard the cables and shared their thoughts with the forum, but I wonder how fair an assessment I or anyone else who has read or commented on Steve's MB thread can have at this point.

Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but I find that with most products heavily discussed on forums, or even heavily reviewed in the press, I am influenced by what I have read before I actually hear the product for myself. And I think it is perhaps even more the case with these MB cables. Do you think that you will be able listen to these cables with an open mind at this point? I hope I can, but I wonder. It should be fun and informative, regardless.

microstrip · Feb 12, 2017

ack said:
Who says the components I use have no scientific support... what do you think the low ESR values of the capacitors I use are all about... voodoo? I'll ignore your entire post.

The effect of the low ESR in the power supply of an analog Mosfet or similar technology subwoofer amplifier using negative feedback could never justify the differences you quote in subwoofer sound quality in the bass frequencies. Anyone simulating or measuring it will arrive at the same conclusion. Yes, our ears are much more powerful than people imagine.

I respect the DIY people and envy them. I have done it myself with great pleasure. But will never support it with my electronics knowledge or science. Our modifications are essentially empirically driven.

ack · Feb 12, 2017

PeterA said:
Sounds like a great concert, ack. I am sorry I missed it.

Given the level of discussion about these cables on this forum, I wonder if I would be able to approach the listening with anything like an open mind. I hope I will be able to join you to find out. Expectation bias has already permeated my thinking about these cables. I have tried to remain respectful of the opinions expressed by those who have heard the cables and shared their thoughts with the forum, but I wonder how fair an assessment I or anyone else who has read or commented on Steve's MB thread can have at this point.

Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but I find that with most products heavily discussed on forums, or even heavily reviewed in the press, I am influenced by what I have read before I actually hear the product for myself. And I think it is perhaps even more the case with these MB cables. Do you think that you will be able listen to these cables with an open mind at this point? I hope I can, but I wonder. It should be fun and informative, regardless.

The performance was so immensely ravishing that a small part of the audience swarmed to the stage at the end, to applaud as close as possible. I have never seen anything like this before. And yes, I agree, there will be a certain amount of bias going in to listen to the MB cables. Maybe I should not partake, after all.

ack · Feb 12, 2017

microstrip said:
The effect of the low ESR in the power supply of an analog Mosfet or similar technology subwoofer amplifier using negative feedback could never justify the differences you quote in subwoofer sound quality in the bass frequencies. Anyone simulating or measuring it will arrive at the same conclusion. Yes, our ears are much more powerful than people imagine.

I respect the DIY people and envy them. I have done it myself with great pleasure. But will never support it with my electronics knowledge or science. Our modifications are essentially empirically driven.

That's your opinion. Also think whether calculating a filter's corner frequency and then adjusting it is based on science or not.

microstrip · Feb 12, 2017

PeterA said:
(...) Given the level of discussion about these cables on this forum, I wonder if I would be able to approach the listening with anything like an open mind. I hope I will be able to join you to find out. Expectation bias has already permeated my thinking about these cables. I have tried to remain respectful of the opinions expressed by those who have heard the cables and shared their thoughts with the forum, but I wonder how fair an assessment I or anyone else who has read or commented on Steve's MB thread can have at this point.

Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but I find that with most products heavily discussed on forums, or even heavily reviewed in the press, I am influenced by what I have read before I actually hear the product for myself. And I think it is perhaps even more the case with these MB cables. Do you think that you will be able listen to these cables with an open mind at this point? I hope I can, but I wonder. It should be fun and informative, regardless.

Well, I would say the opposite - although I am a curious audiophile, nothing I have read in WBF has strongly driven me towards listening to MB cables. I appreciate reading about the enthusiasm of the WBF members who use it, and respect a lot their opinions, but nothing I have read had enough substance to trigger the desire of listening to them. Besides, my system, musical preferences and listening practices are different from that of those who own MB, listening to them would be just a shot in the dark.

I need a long time to listen to cables - it is why I when I am interested in some specifc cable I always buy them and keep them for a few months before choosing - next week I will be swapping the Crystal Dreamlines for the TA OPUS.

JackD201 · Feb 12, 2017

ack said:
Pat in the head??? If nothing else, I was wishing you well with a virtual handshake... And I am not really happy or proud of the money I have invested in this hobby, but I do enjoy the results. Live music is what make me truly happy in this hobby.

Same here Tasos I come from a musical family where sadly I probably have the least musical talent. Phil said your system sounded very good surely you also gain happiness from music other than live. Seems you have no reason not to even if it be just a fraction thereof.

Over here "be good" is what parents tell their kids. If your intention was not to be patronizing I withdraw my protestations.

I don't see why you should be bothered about what you've spent either. You didn't steal or hurt anyone to be able to do it. The results are what matter and you're getting it.

If I'm bothered at all it's this "over-hyped" thing. God, what hasn't been hyped one way or another at one time or another by someone or other? There's a difference between not having scientific basis and not having it made available to you. If it works for some like Mr. Brisson to let it all out, good for them. Gavin Fish is a friend. Has been since he joined Larry at LH Labs. He's a great guy, we talk about other things, his flying, our health concerns, not just audio. The approach works for him and Larry at LH too. For the many that would rather not publish, that is their call. The first marketing copy of MB was not my cup of tea either but it just didn't take away anything from the performance in the end. Have I had people not like it in their systems? Yes. Why not? It doesn't matter. They need what they need, they like what they like. That's fine. They have been great for me and many others though. Sometimes I feel that you expect us to do our evaluations along your lines. I don't think that is fair. Not all of us are scientists and should we be forced to follow the information presented lacking the necessary tools to truly comprehend them we will be taking leaps of faith anyway so the lack of the same with regards to MB is not an issue. At least we can agree that we can all enjoy the results of our respective endeavors. Respect for the approaches we as the end users take was all I was asking for anyway.

microstrip · Feb 12, 2017

ack said:
That's your opinion. Also think whether calculating a filter's corner frequency and then adjusting it is based on science or not.

Could you be my specific? Surely f = 1/ (2*PI*R*C) - it is science! But what we were debating was the audible and scientific effect of ESR ...

PeterA · Feb 12, 2017

microstrip said:
Well, I would say the opposite - although I am a curious audiophile, nothing I have read in WBF has strongly driven me towards listening to MB cables. I appreciate reading about the enthusiasm of the WBF members who use it, and respect a lot their opinions, but nothing I have read had enough substance to trigger the desire of listening to them. Besides, my system, musical preferences and listening practices are different from that of those who own MB, listening to them would be just a shot in the dark.

I need a long time to listen to cables - it is why I when I am interested in some specifc cable I always buy them and keep them for a few months before choosing - next week I will be swapping the Crystal Dreamlines for the TA OPUS.

I own TA cables and had the full calibrated loom in my system for a month before committing to buying them. That was particularly generous of the manufacturer. I would love to hear the TA OPUS and can only imagine what they sound like. I did compare my 5M TA REF XL mm2 IC to those from two other brands briefly the other day with a couple of buddies, and my TA clearly sounded best in my system. If I am able to hear the MasterBuilt cables in my friend's very familiar system, it will certainly be a fun gathering and perhaps quite informative. I will wait to see and may report my impressions.

ack · Feb 12, 2017

microstrip said:
Could you be my specific? Surely f = 1/ (2*PI*R*C) - it is science! But what we were debating was the audible and scientific effect of ESR ...

Nope. I brought up capacitor ESR as one example. One of my DAC's other mods was to also adjust the corner frequency of the analog output section, using the formula you quoted; you may have missed it. I think we need to stop right here, as you have no argument in my mind. I simply ignored your entire post.

PeterA · Feb 12, 2017

ack said:
The performance was so immensely ravishing that a small part of the audience swarmed to the stage at the end, to applaud as close as possible. I have never seen anything like this before. And yes, I agree, there will be a certain amount of bias going in to listen to the MB cables. Maybe I should not partake, after all.

No, I don't think you should avoid hearing them, even if you can't avoid expectation bias. It'll be fun. You will never know what these cables sound like unless you hear them, and you know the system somewhat anyway. It can't hurt and you may learn something. I'm very curious and hope I have the chance to follow Lief's advice of "just listen". At least then, I will have a more informed opinion.

microstrip · Feb 12, 2017

ack said:
Nope. I brought up capacitor ESR as one example. One of my DAC's other mods was to also adjust the corner frequency of the analog output section, using the formula you quoted; you may have missed it. I think we need to stop right here, as you have no argument in my mind. I simply ignored your entire post.

Yes, you can stop any time - apologies for bothering your science. It was not my intention. But I try to keep my feet on ground - not an easy thing in audio matters.

ack · Feb 12, 2017

JackD201 said:
Same here Tasos I come from a musical family where sadly I probably have the least musical talent. Phil said your system sounded very good surely you also gain happiness from music other than live. Seems you have no reason not to even if it be just a fraction thereof.

Over here "be good" is what parents tell their kids. If your intention was not to be patronizing I withdraw my protestations.

No, my intent was to wish you well, and again, thanks for reaching out. But we do sometimes very strongly disagree on certain things. The question is, how do we all leave the emotions out of it.

And yes, I gain happiness from my system, which has pinned me down for listening marathons as long as 16 hours straight. But it cannot approach the immensity of a truly spectacular live performance. I hope anyone will pay at least one visit to the BSO at some point. Consider this: to achieve perfection, all musicians have to perform perfectly - that's the BSO, and that's the standard we go by over here.

JackD201 said:
If I'm bothered at all it's this "over-hyped" thing.

Sure, perhaps too strong a comment, apologies are in order if it bothered anyone. But I was really referring to the super-conductor/CERN thing again, not what you guys have written about the sonics - I've been discussing the technical merits of the products, and I have never commented on anyone's claims on the sonics.

All the best

ack · Feb 12, 2017

microstrip said:
Yes, you can stop any time - apologies for bothering your science. It was not my intention. But I try to keep my feet on ground - not an easy thing in audio matters.

That's fine. If you are curious, here's the start of that modification http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?21961-RCR-filter-can-you-verify-my-calculations using real science; the rest is in my system thread

Leif S · Feb 12, 2017

ack said:
No, my intent was to wish you well, and again, thanks for reaching out. But we do sometimes very strongly disagree on certain things. The question is, how do we all leave the emotions out of it.

And yes, I gain happiness from my system, which has pinned me down for listening marathons as long as 16 hours straight. But it cannot approach the immensity of a truly spectacular live performance. I hope anyone will pay at least one visit to the BSO at some point. Consider this: to achieve perfection, all musicians have to perform perfectly - that's the BSO, and that's the standard we go by over here.

Sure, perhaps too strong a comment, apologies are in order if it bothered anyone. But I was really referring to the super-conductor/CERN thing again, not what you guys have written about the sonics - I've been discussing the technical merits of the products, and I have never commented on anyone's claims on the sonics.

All the best

Why is it so complicated for people to understand this???

MB never claimed it was the exact same material used for CERN!!! It was developed during that time and is a variation. MB never claimed that the formula used for the Ultra cable was a "Super Conductor." It was to give insight on how the formulation was developed. Apparently it was written poorly on the website and it was removed. It is proprietary and it will remain that way.

Al M. · Feb 12, 2017

PeterA said:
Given the level of discussion about these cables on this forum, I wonder if I would be able to approach the listening with anything like an open mind. I hope I will be able to join you to find out. Expectation bias has already permeated my thinking about these cables. I have tried to remain respectful of the opinions expressed by those who have heard the cables and shared their thoughts with the forum, but I wonder how fair an assessment I or anyone else who has read or commented on Steve's MB thread can have at this point.

Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but I find that with most products heavily discussed on forums, or even heavily reviewed in the press, I am influenced by what I have read before I actually hear the product for myself. And I think it is perhaps even more the case with these MB cables. Do you think that you will be able listen to these cables with an open mind at this point? I hope I can, but I wonder. It should be fun and informative, regardless.

I don't know, Peter, but I have prepared myself to be pleasantly surprised. Perhaps they will be the best cables I will have heard in the system, who knows? Maybe I will truly be blown away and really have learned something?

Yet, even if I may write the most glowing review possible, I will still end it with an emphatic criticism of the marketing strategies of MB. In fact, in that case I will have the more reason to: if the cables are really that good, then I could make even more the argument that there is no reason for MB to cheapen the buzz around them with such marketing.

Al M. · Feb 12, 2017

Leif S said:
It is proprietary and it will remain that way.

Again, nobody has ever claimed MB should give up proprietary information. But when they make specific statements like:

"the musical signal will be affected when the electrons collide with the dielectric’s “free radical” electrons."

we would like to have them backed up with some scientific data, i.e. measurements. Otherwise it's just marketing bluster.

This does not require divulging proprietary information.

spiritofmusic · Feb 12, 2017

Leif, no disrespect to you, or anyone else on this thread, but I find it somewhat jarring that the marketing dept got involved, and on the basis of this parallel thread and your continued correspondence, remain involved
I even have issues when a chief designer or engineer of a brand chimes in, but as long as it's to kind of address qs or provide constructive information, and is within strict limits, it's a lot less controversial than marketeers putting the party line
This is not a personal criticism, just a very specific thing in this thread I haven't seen in any others, and allied w retracted claims, just sits poorly w me

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