Are we sometimes disillusioned in this audio business/hobby?

FrantzM · Feb 18, 2017

Al M. said:
Thank you for this balanced post, Dave. What you say may be true for many of us, but for some there will be something darker going on, as Audioguy's experience testifies.

I often like to look at the sunnier side of things, as you do in your post, but lately this has become more and more difficult for me with things audio. I do see all those problems with "more expensive = better", the luxury aspect of things that distracts from the pure audio aspect, and the addictions.

For quite some time it has been a lonely fight for me and a few others. The flight toward higher prices has become a constant in the audiophile ecosystem. It has become so pervasive as to be perceived as "normal", thus the notions of "price category", "price level", price "class", the more condescending "for its price, etc". I don't see much end to this state of affair. The only consolation and this is connected to Audioguy prior post is that there continue to have excellent products at sane price points in Audio reproduction. Finding and building a system with then does require a certain amount of research and dedication.

Detlof · Feb 18, 2017

NorthStar said:
If it isn't about the music, then we don't need an audio business/hobby? What are we going to use to spin our LPs?
Who is going to go dancing on a Saturday night @ the jazz club cabaret, on the rhythm of the live jazz band?

Music is our real business, business of the heart and soul. Audio is needed to play with our emotions, audio provides the sacred grounds to spin our heads around and have fun with our bank accounts by playing numbers. As the world keeps orbiting, and with us sitting on it, the gravitational force is strong.

@ the end there is Live music, and there is Reproduced music. The later is the audio game. But without music there's no game.

Thank you for that. If i think back on my long long long quest it was an unconsciously driven search for the beauty of and in music. I always made terrible mistakes, when I was seduced by dealers, reviews and snap decisions. I had to learn to trust what was in my head and only my own pair of ears attached to it. It was a very lonely business for a while. Frankly, i was quite astonished, when others came and liked it. It gave me confidence. I am now at peace, I know now, that the sacrifices I made were not in vain in creating, what an old old friend in the business called my "weird ass system ". Yes it is a game, but it is always also a creative act. I cannot say that I am disillusioned. Perhaps I was for a while, with most of my fellow audiophiles, because for a long time i naively thought, that they were driven by the same passion as I was. that was not very world wise. I had to be patient to learn that there are many ways that lead to Rome, i.e. to the sounds, that we perceive as music.

Detlof · Feb 18, 2017

FrantzM said:
For quite some time it has been a lonely fight for me and a few others. The flight toward higher prices has become a constant in the audiophile ecosystem. It has become so pervasive as to be perceived as "normal", thus the notions of "price category", "price level", price "class", the more condescending "for its price, etc". I don't see much end to this state of affair. The only consolation and this is connected to Audioguy prior post is that there continue to have excellent products at sane price points in Audio reproduction. Finding and building a system with then does require a certain amount of research and dedication.

I absolutely agree. But then you can get wonderfully sounding systems costing less than 10k if you know what you are doing. At the same time however, there do exist breakthrough products, that from the point of view of their performance might merit their price. The MSB Select 2 comes to mind, or some of the top echelon phono cartridges. There is now way around it, if you like to drive and corner fast and go to the limit, you are safer in a 200k Porsche than in a 30k Golf.

audioguy · Feb 18, 2017

Al M. said:
Thank you for this balanced post, Dave. What you say may be true for many of us, but for some there will be something darker going on, as Audioguy's experience testifies.

I often like to look at the sunnier side of things, as you do in your post, but lately this has become more and more difficult for me with things audio. I do see all those problems with "more expensive = better", the luxury aspect of things that distracts from the pure audio aspect, and the addictions.

On the "sunnier side of things", I get almost as much joy listening to music on my frequency limited $200 speakers driven by my Amazon Dot (used when I am on my computer) playing compressed Amazon Prime music as I do from my much larger, more complex and much pricer system in my dedicated room. There is hope !!

Al M. · Feb 18, 2017

FrantzM said:
For quite some time it has been a lonely fight for me and a few others. The flight toward higher prices has become a constant in the audiophile ecosystem. It has become so pervasive as to be perceived as "normal", thus the notions of "price category", "price level", price "class", the more condescending "for its price, etc". I don't see much end to this state of affair. The only consolation and this is connected to Audioguy prior post is that there continue to have excellent products at sane price points in Audio reproduction. Finding and building a system with then does require a certain amount of research and dedication.

That is why I have become so excited about products with great value, including my speakers, which only cost $ 3K:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20786-Review-Reference-3A-MM-de-Capo-BE-monitors

Great value also appears to be had from the provocatively irreverent Schiit Audio, for example from their $ 2,300 Yggdrasil DAC,

http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

which according to numerous sources appears to be competitive with DACs multiple its price. I am definitely going to try it within the next couple of months. The technical descriptions certainly seem to suggest that they know what they are doing; co-founder Mike Moffat used to be the chief engineer of Theta Digital. Basically he is a legendary, pioneering figure in high end digital.

audioguy · Feb 18, 2017

Al M. said:
That is why I have become so excited about products with great value, including my speakers, which only cost $ 3K:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20786-Review-Reference-3A-MM-de-Capo-BE-monitors

Great value also appears to be had from the provocatively irreverent Schiit Audio, for example from their $ 2,300 Yggdrasil DAC,

http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

which according to numerous sources appears to be competitive with DACs multiple its price. I am definitely going to try it within the next couple of months. The technical descriptions certainly seem to suggest that they know what they are doing; co-founder Mike Moffat used to be the chief engineer of Theta Digital. Basically he is a legendary, pioneering figure in high end digital.

After looking at pictures of your room and system and learning how long you keep equipment, I have a better feeling for your position on this hobby. You appear to be doing it correctly. Good for you.

Detlof · Feb 18, 2017

audioguy said:
On the "sunnier side of things", I get almost as much joy listening to music on my frequency limited $200 speakers driven by my Amazon Dot (used when I am on my computer) playing compressed Amazon Prime music as I do from my much larger, more complex and much pricer system in my dedicated room. There is hope !!

Love that! I call that innocent listening, because you are not constantly tempted or distracted to listen how the gear sounds, you just enjoy the music.

Al M. · Feb 18, 2017

audioguy said:
After looking at pictures of your room and system and learning how long you keep equipment, I have a better feeling for your position on this hobby. You appear to be doing it correctly. Good for you.

Thank you.

Regarding audiophilitis nervosa, I have calmed down from my burning desire last year to purchase the $ 24 K dCS Rossini DAC. It sounds terrific, and I can perfectly understand why someone who can afford it would want to have it, or even it's bigger brother, the dCS Vivaldi. Yet I have decided that for me personally it's a too outrageous expense. Also, I have gained renewed appreciation for my own Berkeley DAC after the speaker upgrade last year, and after some other system improvements. The DAC does have shortcomings, but they are much less severe than I thought.

For the sake of audio sanity I decided to strive less high and give the 10 x less expensive but allegedly fantastic Schiit Yggdrasil DAC a shot. If it works out, great. If it doesn't, that's fine too, it's only 115 bucks restocking fee (5 %). And then I'll have confirmation that I have a really good DAC already. So either way, it should turn out well.

audioguy · Feb 18, 2017

Detlof said:
Love that! I call that innocent listening, because you are not constantly tempted or distracted to listen how the gear sounds, you just enjoy the music.

Those $250 per pair speakers (Audioengine A2+) probably image better than any speaker at any cost I have ever heard - even with a computer monitor in-between them.

audioguy · Feb 18, 2017

Addiction aside for the moment, I have been in my home theater/music room for the last 3 or 4 hours today listening to all kinds of music - mostly female vocal - of course expanded to a 7.4.4 set of speakers. And I am reminded yet again what got me going on this crazy journey in the first place. And while the process to get here was not particularly healthy, the end result provides much joy. While I do most of my music listening alone (today was an exception as my wife joined me - but slept most of the time), the use of the room for our Friday and/or Saturday date nights provides a great way to spend part of an evening.

DaveC · Feb 18, 2017

audioguy said:
Addiction aside for the moment, I have been in my home theater/music room for the last 3 or 4 hours today listening to all kinds of music - mostly female vocal - of course expanded to a 7.4.4 set of speakers. And I am reminded yet again what got me going on this crazy journey in the first place. And while the process to get here was not particularly healthy, the end result provides much joy. While I do most of my music listening alone (today was an exception as my wife joined me - but slept most of the time), the use of the room for our Friday and/or Saturday date nights provides a great way to spend part of an evening.

That's good to hear!

Al M. · Feb 18, 2017

audioguy said:
On the "sunnier side of things", I get almost as much joy listening to music on my frequency limited $200 speakers driven by my Amazon Dot (used when I am on my computer) playing compressed Amazon Prime music as I do from my much larger, more complex and much pricer system in my dedicated room. There is hope !!

I also enjoy very much watching DVR recorded concerts of Steve Vai, Slash feat. Myles Kennedy, and Mostly Mozart from Lincoln Center on my $ 300 TV with downward firing baby speakers and no bass whatsoever. However, when I listen closely, rock cymbals for example are so immensely wrong, not just in terms of sound but also in terms of attack and decay -- must be a really lousy internal DAC. But it doesn't really matter when you're wrapped up in the music.

On the other hand, on my main system I just listened to Frank Zappa's 'Guitar', a collection of a bunch of his guitar solos (1988). Not only did it sound great, the music blew my mind.

Zappa is not just one of the greatest rock composers, but also one of the greatest guitarists, no doubt.

microstrip · Feb 18, 2017

FrantzM said:
microstrip

however much you want to slant it .. Try to be honest for a second or 2 .. You may fail but do try

... When Dallasjustice posted that he went from YG to JBL how many congrats did he receive? His feelings were certainly at play here. He liked what he acquired. please do show me how many congrats he received... to use your terms IMHO there would be some of us who would congratulate him for his feeling. so
You infer it was a matter of price not I .. Mac are not cheap nor are JBL speakers at least the ones Dalla acquired ..
Have you gleaned my post and see how many times I have posted about things as diverse as Fridge, Coffee machines or watches? or AV receivers or cheap but interesting
Terms like even worst means you paid no attention to the tenor of my post and simply went to a knee-jerk reactions .... How many times I have suggested gear that I think of distinction but modest prices e.g Magnepan ... even cheap hears such as the iFi nanoDac about which I wrote ... I would say that I do strongly believe that prices are not an indication of quality you OTOH ... What are you talking about? Bro? ... I continue to be an audiophile and a member of WBF.. Is there a given type of posts that you would deem worthy of those?

I will not comment on other posters threads and attitudes, I commented on your post. Your answer just confirms what I have written. Nothing to add.

Unfortunately for our wallet, in general prices are correlated with quality if people know how to use their money with knowledge and expertise.

Al M. · Feb 18, 2017

microstrip said:
Unfortunately for our wallet, in general prices are correlated with quality if people know how to use their money with knowledge and expertise.

If you replace "in general" with "in a number of cases" I would agree.

Alas I cannot consider the high end as so healthy as to see a correlation between price and quality "in general".

microstrip · Feb 18, 2017

Al M. said:
If you replace "in general" with "in a number of cases" I would agree.

Alas I cannot consider the high end as so healthy as to see a correlation between price and quality "in general".

Then we happily disagree ... IMHO it is "in general".

BTW, when I make this type of statements, I try to weight brands with their market penetration. A brand that makes and sells just two or three units of an expensive item has very little weight in my statement.

Lee · Feb 20, 2017

I've seen a few things that I believe kill the fun of our hobby.

1. I think many in our hobby take it too seriously. Lots of insecure people have to have the best gear which is fine on one level as anyone should spend their money as they please. But there is an insidious desire to put down those with lesser budgets and lesser systems. It also happens to manifest in condescending attitudes for people with less experience. I think we should share knowledge and help people as we were all there before.

2. I think some people are "gear heads" and just really care about the equipment and a handful of often boring and overplayed audiophile recordings. I think this turns off a lot of people visiting audio club meetings and other, less public listening sessions.

3. Breathtaking rudeness on forums. I've seen the worst of human behavior from AA to Steve Hoffman Music Forums to WBF. We need to be kind to those with different opinions no matter how violently we may disagree. Each person brings their own experience and knowledge to the debate. If we could just listen to the other side of the argument as well as we at least profess to listen to music, I bet each side would learn something.

4. Choosing the wrong friends. This applies in spades. There are very good and kind people in the hobby. A very generous new friend just loaned me some $4K Utopia headphones to audition that are practically new. I was flabbergasted at the offer. But there are people who are hyper-competitive that seem to put down everyone who doesn't fit their world view of audio. I've seen this locally and at shows.

5. Choosing the wrong audio dealers. I've gotten to be quite intolerant of dealers who always claim their current products are the best. Come on, no one store has the finest gear. Second, the need for many dealers to make a sale by pissing on last year's model which you bought. This can be a soul-crushing, life-sucking experience until you realize that you have many options, online and otherwise, and it's really so much bullshit.

That said, if you can avoid #1 to #5 above, this hobby is immensely rewarding. When system and room synergy is working, the music can be sublime.

amirm · Feb 20, 2017

Lee said:
I've seen a few things that I believe kill the fun of our hobby.

1. I think many in our hobby take it too seriously. Lots of insecure people have to have the best gear which is fine on one level as anyone should spend their money as they please. But there is an insidious desire to put down those with lesser budgets and lesser systems. It also happens to manifest in condescending attitudes for people with less experience. I think we should share knowledge and help people as we were all there before.

2. I think some people are "gear heads" and just really care about the equipment and a handful of often boring and overplayed audiophile recordings. I think this turns off a lot of people visiting audio club meetings and other, less public listening sessions.

3. Breathtaking rudeness on forums. I've seen the worst of human behavior from AA to Steve Hoffman Music Forums to WBF. We need to be kind to those with different opinions no matter how violently we may disagree. Each person brings their own experience and knowledge to the debate. If we could just listen to the other side of the argument as well as we at least profess to listen to music, I bet each side would learn something.

4. Choosing the wrong friends. This applies in spades. There are very good and kind people in the hobby. A very generous new friend just loaned me some $4K Utopia headphones to audition that are practically new. I was flabbergasted at the offer. But there are people who are hyper-competitive that seem to put down everyone who doesn't fit their world view of audio. I've seen this locally and at shows.

5. Choosing the wrong audio dealers. I've gotten to be quite intolerant of dealers who always claim their current products are the best. Come on, no one store has the finest gear. Second, the need for many dealers to make a sale by pissing on last year's model which you bought. This can be a soul-crushing, life-sucking experience until you realize that you have many options, online and otherwise, and it's really so much bullshit.

That said, if you can avoid #1 to #5 above, this hobby is immensely rewarding. When system and room synergy is working, the music can be sublime.

So well said. Thank you Lee.

ack · Feb 20, 2017

Lee said:
I've seen a few things that I believe kill the fun of our hobby.

1. I think many in our hobby take it too seriously. Lots of insecure people have to have the best gear which is fine on one level as anyone should spend their money as they please. But there is an insidious desire to put down those with lesser budgets and lesser systems. It also happens to manifest in condescending attitudes for people with less experience. I think we should share knowledge and help people as we were all there before.

2. I think some people are "gear heads" and just really care about the equipment and a handful of often boring and overplayed audiophile recordings. I think this turns off a lot of people visiting audio club meetings and other, less public listening sessions.

3. Breathtaking rudeness on forums. I've seen the worst of human behavior from AA to Steve Hoffman Music Forums to WBF. We need to be kind to those with different opinions no matter how violently we may disagree. Each person brings their own experience and knowledge to the debate. If we could just listen to the other side of the argument as well as we at least profess to listen to music, I bet each side would learn something.

4. Choosing the wrong friends. This applies in spades. There are very good and kind people in the hobby. A very generous new friend just loaned me some $4K Utopia headphones to audition that are practically new. I was flabbergasted at the offer. But there are people who are hyper-competitive that seem to put down everyone who doesn't fit their world view of audio. I've seen this locally and at shows.

5. Choosing the wrong audio dealers. I've gotten to be quite intolerant of dealers who always claim their current products are the best. Come on, no one store has the finest gear. Second, the need for many dealers to make a sale by pissing on last year's model which you bought. This can be a soul-crushing, life-sucking experience until you realize that you have many options, online and otherwise, and it's really so much bullshit.

That said, if you can avoid #1 to #5 above, this hobby is immensely rewarding. When system and room synergy is working, the music can be sublime.

Thank you for this post, and indeed, I have seen all of the above and more. If I were to add to #1 through #4, it wouldn't go well. So I'll just comment on #5 - I strongly support dealers, but some truly suck the life out of the hobby. I dumped the local dealer after some 25 years because of unrelenting insults in the last few months. I guess the older they get, the more snobbish they become; and that's putting it mildly... if you only were in a position to hear what their own ex staff have to say...

Detlof · Feb 20, 2017

Lee said:
I've seen a few things that I believe kill the fun of our hobby.

1. I think many in our hobby take it too seriously. Lots of insecure people have to have the best gear which is fine on one level as anyone should spend their money as they please. But there is an insidious desire to put down those with lesser budgets and lesser systems. It also happens to manifest in condescending attitudes for people with less experience. I think we should share knowledge and help people as we were all there before.

2. I think some people are "gear heads" and just really care about the equipment and a handful of often boring and overplayed audiophile recordings. I think this turns off a lot of people visiting audio club meetings and other, less public listening sessions.

3. Breathtaking rudeness on forums. I've seen the worst of human behavior from AA to Steve Hoffman Music Forums to WBF. We need to be kind to those with different opinions no matter how violently we may disagree. Each person brings their own experience and knowledge to the debate. If we could just listen to the other side of the argument as well as we at least profess to listen to music, I bet each side would learn something.

4. Choosing the wrong friends. This applies in spades. There are very good and kind people in the hobby. A very generous new friend just loaned me some $4K Utopia headphones to audition that are practically new. I was flabbergasted at the offer. But there are people who are hyper-competitive that seem to put down everyone who doesn't fit their world view of audio. I've seen this locally and at shows.

5. Choosing the wrong audio dealers. I've gotten to be quite intolerant of dealers who always claim their current products are the best. Come on, no one store has the finest gear. Second, the need for many dealers to make a sale by pissing on last year's model which you bought. This can be a soul-crushing, life-sucking experience until you realize that you have many options, online and otherwise, and it's really so much bullshit.

That said, if you can avoid #1 to #5 above, this hobby is immensely rewarding. When system and room synergy is working, the music can be sublime.

Lee thank you ! This is excellent.

NorthStar · Feb 20, 2017

I was on my way to the best videos section of the forums, when I first decided to see what was new today, February 20th, 2017

There is no illusion to what I've just read above. This one's for you, Lee, and everyone else:

Are we sometimes disillusioned in this audio business/hobby?

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