Are we sometimes disillusioned in this audio business/hobby?
- Thread starter NorthStar
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I don't really agree
If high end would bring some more common sense to the table , and things that can be measured would be measured , the overall standard can be lifted .
If you don't measure what can be measured high end keeps sometimes bathing in some kind of mysticism.
If all that money that is poored in 30 K cables and what not , would be used to develop a SOTA. modern day tape machine ,....then ....
I think that will forever be a dream.
Can you tell me what measures better in tape than DXD digital?
I said measure what can be measured
Some things can not be measured , like for example 30 K cable improvements.
Or correct /musical harmonics and overtones .
Which digital lacks in my view in comparison to tape(records ) done right.
Ps although I like digital as well , its just not the pinnacle in audio reproduction in my view
Some things can not be measured , like for example 30 K cable improvements.
Or correct /musical harmonics and overtones .
Which digital lacks in my view in comparison to tape(records ) done right.
Ps although I like digital as well , its just not the pinnacle in audio reproduction in my view
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Welcome back! For a moment, I was thinking that we had lost the old you
But I did mention in my post's title that it was just an "essay". I'm also a freelance artist. It's in my roots, and I like to exercise that aspect on very rare occasions now and then.
After all, this audio business passion/hobby that we all have in common has many various directions; from the very scientific to the very best opulence.
See, that's one balance I was referring to prior, among many more.
Even some audio manufacturers have similar qualities from their own roots, in describing what their audio designs can do to you by transforming your life for the better, inside you and all around. Masters of illusion, some?
It's a good thing to find our sense of personal sanity by having our two feet well anchored on terra firma and our brain above the polluted/noisy atmosphere.
It's a very personal journey and all journeys could be written in books. The books we write are the ones we are happy to listen to. ...We share in words our joys and passions, without persuasion, with freedom of expression, in the comfort of this gigantic universal listening living music room/box.
We learn to accommodate, to advance all together, in search of the audio truths and music bliss and life's simplicity and love.
Money won't necessarily provide it, it can help, it does, and it doesn't. The human brain can be a very nicely polished and fine tuned turbine of great power and ingenuity. It can works wonder in a world of illusions, realities, ...all that jazz.
Happiness is .....
And Frantz, I wrote my post from inspiration of your prior reply to Roger's post.
This one ? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...business-hobby&p=436429&viewfull=1#post436429
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I don;t think it was your intention but this post continue to carry the fallacy that more expensive = better. I read this in this very WBF and it is to me telling. I am paraphrasing it. I am not verbatim (perhaps someone could help me as it refers to an essay or book I intend to purchase) : "In the absence of clear metrics price becomes the criterion. The more expensive the better." That is the case in Luxury markets. A stainless steel Patek Philip is perceived "better" than a ss Rolex Submariner itself better than a ss Tag Heuer Aquaracer... If survival is at stakes however and for people doing the real deep dive you will see them with a variety of watches much cheaper but truly and measurably better s than any of those .. among these the Casio G-shock, Seiko and Citizen .... most often they wear something looking like a watch but is actually a dive computer the more expensive models rarely go over $1000 and the most popular are around $300 ... Audio is not life and death fortunately
We have been led to think more expensive = better to almost a subconscious level this has led to a certain amount of disillusion from me.
Great post, Frantz.
The luxury or 'beauty' aspect of audio is something that I have become more critical of lately. Personally, I don't care about it, but it comes with some of the best audio and makes it even more expensive. Let's take for example the dCS Rossini DAC that I had fallen in love with. It comes with intricate custom machining of the case that alone may cost $ 1,000. After mark-up by dealers and others in the chain, the contribution of this to the sales price might be $ 2-3 K, on a $ 24 k DAC. Berkeley also has this fancy one-piece case for the Reference DAC. Do I really want to pay for that luxury? Is it necessary for sound quality? I am not convinced. Schiit for example also produces a quite heavy duty case for their Yggdrasil DAC (the whole DAC weighs 25 pounds), but they have found a dirt cheap way to have it done. No fancy milling involved like for the dCS and Berkeley DACs (our Berkeley Alpha DACs have a quite simple case).
The finish of my speakers has been criticized in reviews for its matte grey 'pedestrian' look from the Nextel material,
http://www.reference3a.com/decapo.html
Do I care? No. I like the look. I just don't want something ugly. And there really ugly speakers out there with a luxury piano gloss finish.
I want to pay for sound, not for finish. I understand that there is owner's pride, and if I'd own one of the aforementioned DACs I'd also take pride in the look. But I would rather be without the fancy looks and a few thousand dollars more in the bank account.
Yes
Yes
Yes
Both
Both
Contentment?
We know for certain it's not the absolute truth.
Look at it this way. If high-end audio today turned all its knowledge, resources, and focus to machines / robots assimilating sex/making love, about 40 years into the future TAS (The Absolute Sex) magazine would be filled with advertisements and review articles about state-of-the-art products like the one in this video with industry leaders' endorsements claiming performance levels "indistinguishable from the live event".
I would argue that if we are really completely honest with ourselves, not all of us are necessarily looking for what most would define as "contentment".
When I was in the midst of the most active part of this [strike]disease[/strike] hobby, my purchase decisions were subconsciously driven my many factors. As noted in some previous posts, a product that had a great reputation and great industrial design (from 30 years ago, the mono block Krell MDA 300's come to mind), might show up on my list. In the days when I actually believed all of the reviews in TAS and Stereophile, some of those reviews would drive my purchases (if they thought it was great, then clearly I needed it so other people would think I was great). And until I finally figured out that 99.99999% of my friends quietly thought I was a complete lunatic and could not care less about the audio equipment I owned, I was (apparently subconsciously) trying to impress them.
Certainly at a conscious level, I was telling myself I was purchasing product X to improve the music listening experience.
And while clearly not true of everyone, but true in my case, much of my pursuit of audio bliss or contentment or whatever you want to call it was nothing more than my version of alcoholism, drug use or any of the other better known addictions.
And once I was able to really admit to myself what I was doing, a certain level of sanity began to prevail. Not complete sanity, mind you, but massive improvements. And to continue the transparency, being retired and on a fixed income helped as well
When I was in the midst of the most active part of this [strike]disease[/strike] hobby, my purchase decisions were subconsciously driven my many factors. As noted in some previous posts, a product that had a great reputation and great industrial design (from 30 years ago, the mono block Krell MDA 300's come to mind), might show up on my list. In the days when I actually believed all of the reviews in TAS and Stereophile, some of those reviews would drive my purchases (if they thought it was great, then clearly I needed it so other people would think I was great). And until I finally figured out that 99.99999% of my friends quietly thought I was a complete lunatic and could not care less about the audio equipment I owned, I was (apparently subconsciously) trying to impress them.
Certainly at a conscious level, I was telling myself I was purchasing product X to improve the music listening experience.
And while clearly not true of everyone, but true in my case, much of my pursuit of audio bliss or contentment or whatever you want to call it was nothing more than my version of alcoholism, drug use or any of the other better known addictions.
And once I was able to really admit to myself what I was doing, a certain level of sanity began to prevail. Not complete sanity, mind you, but massive improvements. And to continue the transparency, being retired and on a fixed income helped as well
<<Mostly though, I think we simply overthink things>>....yet most persist in saying it's all about the music. A very big amen to that old buddy!
I would argue that if we are really completely honest with ourselves, not all of us are necessarily looking for what most would define as "contentment".
When I was in the midst of the most active part of this [strike]disease[/strike] hobby, my purchase decisions were subconsciously driven my many factors. As noted in some previous posts, a product that had a great reputation and great industrial design (from 30 years ago, the mono block Krell MDA 300's come to mind), might show up on my list. In the days when I actually believed all of the reviews in TAS and Stereophile, some of those reviews would drive my purchases (if they thought it was great, then clearly I needed it so other people would think I was great). And until I finally figured out that 99.99999% of my friends quietly thought I was a complete lunatic and could not care less about the audio equipment I owned, I was (apparently subconsciously) trying to impress them.
Certainly at a conscious level, I was telling myself I was purchasing product X to improve the music listening experience.
And while clearly not true of everyone, but true in my case, much of my pursuit of audio bliss or contentment or whatever you want to call it was nothing more than my version of alcoholism, drug use or any of the other better known addictions.
And once I was able to really admit to myself what I was doing, a certain level of sanity began to prevail. Not complete sanity, mind you, but massive improvements. And to continue the transparency, being retired and on a fixed income helped as well
Don't be so hard on yourself!
I totally understand your perspective and there's a lot of truth there... shopping is addictive. But then again so is breathing air, drinking water and eating food. The nature of human existence requires consumption... like most things totally depriving yourself of everything not required for the body's survival isn't a good answer and neither is consuming just to make you feel good to the point it negatively affects your life.
IMO, it's a good thing to follow your interests and put energy (including money) into what you enjoy. If people didn't do this human life would be very boring. It took a certain amount of obsession over many years to get to the point I started an audio business, I think the same is true with any creative endeavor.... we NEED people to be obsessive and get really good at what they do, whatever it is... performing music, recreating music, painting, sculpture, building automobiles, architecture.... I'd argue some of the most obsessive and driven people have made the greatest contributions to the human race and make our time here more interesting and enjoyable. What if Ferrari decided his obsession with cars was simply costing him too much money and he needed to snap out of it?... He'd probably do something boring and useful like accounting or baking pies and the world would be poorer for not having Ferraris. Same with most artists, writers, performers, etc.
Dave, I think you are trying to water down Audioguy's very honest message.
Yes, obsessive people have advanced humanity, but there is a distinction between healthy and unhealthy obsession. The obsession with audio that Audioguy experienced, and which I think holds for many (I have not been completely free of it at times myself), is unhealthy. It is like a bad drug habit, no doubt about it. Nothing good comes from unhealthy obsession.
And yes, if to a substantial degree you are buying audio equipment to impress other people, rather than just for our own enjoyment, you are an idiot (same holds for cars and other hobbies). Fortunately some realize that eventually, some don't.
Thanks but I don't think I was hard on on myself at all. The very first step in solving a problem is accurately identifying the problem and then admitting to it. As noted, I certainly don't think everyone who pursues the best in audio (or anything else for that matter) has an addiction problem. But without going into the details, I had one of those "ah ha" moments that clearly demonstrated that I needed to make some decisions as it was obvious I was dealing with an addiction (at the psychological level, it was a "spending addiction" and not an "audio addiction"). And sometimes it is a really fine line between addiction and "following your interests" or being "obsessed" about something. And it can become a slippery slope.
And anyone who has ever had an addiction issue and has chosen to pursue help (e.g. a 12 step program) will continually and for the rest of their life have to be aware of it. That is why someone who is in, for example, an alcohol recovery program, even after being sober for 25 years, will, at a 12 step meeting, introduce themselves as "Hi. My name is xxxxx and I am an alcoholic".
The transition from "following your interest" to "addiction" is not instantaneous. There is a song by a group named "Casting Crowns" called "Slow Fade".
Here are some of the lyrics:
It's a slow fade when you give yourself away
It's a slow fade when black and white have turned to gray
Thoughts invade, choices are made, a price will be paid
When you give yourself away
People never crumble in a day
The journey from your mind to your hands
Is shorter than you're thinking
Be careful if you think you stand
You just might be sinking
I would argue that if we are really completely honest with ourselves, not all of us are necessarily looking for what most would define as "contentment".
When I was in the midst of the most active part of this [strike]disease[/strike] hobby, my purchase decisions were subconsciously driven my many factors. As noted in some previous posts, a product that had a great reputation and great industrial design (from 30 years ago, the mono block Krell MDA 300's come to mind), might show up on my list. In the days when I actually believed all of the reviews in TAS and Stereophile, some of those reviews would drive my purchases (if they thought it was great, then clearly I needed it so other people would think I was great). And until I finally figured out that 99.99999% of my friends quietly thought I was a complete lunatic and could not care less about the audio equipment I owned, I was (apparently subconsciously) trying to impress them.
Certainly at a conscious level, I was telling myself I was purchasing product X to improve the music listening experience.
And while clearly not true of everyone, but true in my case, much of my pursuit of audio bliss or contentment or whatever you want to call it was nothing more than my version of alcoholism, drug use or any of the other better known addictions.
And once I was able to really admit to myself what I was doing, a certain level of sanity began to prevail. Not complete sanity, mind you, but massive improvements. And to continue the transparency, being retired and on a fixed income helped as well
One of the most refreshing honest and rare post I have ever seen in the WBF.
However much we may avoid this issue. Snobbism is there. A person buys a Magico, Wilson, YG, Rockport, Gryphon loudspeakers ... Endless "Congrats" , thumbs ups, et.. Same (worse) or another person come here and declare he just bought a JBL , yawns , poorly veiled sneers, at best indifference ... Snobbery is endemic to our hobby and perhaps any hobby.. A guy comes with a Leica ... yeah! He/she's elite.. he/she knows stuff... Please read this URL >> HERE<<< . when it comes to taking real pictures the Leica M9 is blown away by the 4 times cheaper Nikon D600... Truly blown away ... Now in Audio, in that non static thing we call music, Biases are much more difficult to eliminate and we find many talking about toe tapping as being a metric , with all-seriousness, so it will continue to be so and a Klipsch still will not be held in the same esteem as a Wilson... Nor a Mac as a Dagostino.
Now, a mea culpa . I am guilty of that snobbery as any hobbyist: A WBF member Joelinid has the Klipsch Cornwall. In a post in which he was discussing about an amp, I suggested to him without EVER having heard his Cornwalls that his system would improve by a change of speakers!!! Difficult to find a better display of snobbery coupled with ignorance and arrogance ... The intention wasn't negative, but the attitude, unconscious, to my belated defense, was ... Sorry Joeinid
Like Audioguy I am progressing and am very mindful of my own audio choices. I listen to more music and my sights are toward a system that will provide satisfaction to my ears...
... The above may not true for everyone but to paraphrase Audioguy, it was for me. Until recently
audioguy, I understand what you and Al M are saying... I'm not trying to water down your experience or say it's anything other than what you stated... But I am saying not to be too hard on yourself for it because it's a human experience and one that has it's potential upsides. I've thought about my buying habits and interests a lot, and I think there's an element of obsession and addiction with nearly everything IF you choose to look at it in that light. I am saying there's another way to look at it, one that's not so dark and one that doesn't require you to give up your interests if indeed you buy into the line of reasoning that it's an addiction. Because seen in the addiction light there's going to be tons of stuff you do that can be seen that way, and I'm not sure that's really a healthy way to look at things.
In the end it's the intent behind the behavior that really counts, if you are spending money to feel the rush of the new purchase or to impress others then by all means modify your behavior. OTOH, we all get a rush from new purchases. We all like to share our purchases with out friends. These are universal "human nature" type behaviors that every single person in the entire world is subject to. So sometimes the "fine line" between addiction and following your interests is simply a matter of perspective.
I'm posting this because I don't think it's healthy to NOT follow your interests based on a perspective that's overly judgemental and biased, and ironically enough, you're most likely to be judgemental and biased when looking at yourself. Like most things there's a middle way in between labeling your interests addictive and being completely irresponsible with your money and time when following an interest. The truth, and the happiest/best way to go, is always in the middle.
In the end it's the intent behind the behavior that really counts, if you are spending money to feel the rush of the new purchase or to impress others then by all means modify your behavior. OTOH, we all get a rush from new purchases. We all like to share our purchases with out friends. These are universal "human nature" type behaviors that every single person in the entire world is subject to. So sometimes the "fine line" between addiction and following your interests is simply a matter of perspective.
I'm posting this because I don't think it's healthy to NOT follow your interests based on a perspective that's overly judgemental and biased, and ironically enough, you're most likely to be judgemental and biased when looking at yourself. Like most things there's a middle way in between labeling your interests addictive and being completely irresponsible with your money and time when following an interest. The truth, and the happiest/best way to go, is always in the middle.
One of the most refreshing honest and rare post I have ever seen in the WBF.
However much we may avoid this issue. Snobbism is there. A person buys a Magico, Wilson, YG, Rockport, Gryphon loudspeakers ... Endless "Congrats" , thumbs ups, et.. Same (worse) or another person come here and declare he just bought a JBL , yawns , poorly veiled sneers, at best indifference ... Snobbery is endemic to our hobby and perhaps any hobby.. A guy comes with a Leica ... yeah! He/she's elite.. he/she knows stuff... Please read this URL >> HERE<<< . when it comes to taking real pictures the Leica M9 is blown away by the 4 times cheaper Nikon D600... Truly blown away ... Now in Audio, in that non static thing we call music, Biases are much more difficult to eliminate and we find many talking about toe tapping as being a metric , with all-seriousness, so it will continue to be so and a Klipsch still will not be held in the same esteem as a Wilson... Nor a Mac as a Dagostino.
Now, a mea culpa . I am guilty of that snobbery as any hobbyist: A WBF member Joelinid has the Klipsch Cornwall. In a post in which he was discussing about an amp, I suggested to him without EVER having heard his Cornwalls that his system would improve by a change of speakers!!! Difficult to find a better display of snobbery coupled with ignorance and arrogance ... The intention wasn't negative, but the attitude, unconscious, to my belated defense, was ... Sorry Joeinid
Like Audioguy I am progressing and am very mindful of my own audio choices. I listen to more music and my sights are toward a system that will provide satisfaction to my ears...
... The above may not true for everyone but to paraphrase Audioguy, it was for me. Until recently
I did not see this when Dallasjustice posted about his new JBLs.
And, Klipsch are bargain speakers compared to many other brands at the time. IMO, they are not great speakers and there's a lot of good reasons why. Of course you can do better, and it's not snobbery to say it.
That was not the case for me. Nor do I believe it is the case for most addictions. I do believe it is a fine line between addictive behavior and non-addictive behavior with any addiction. Let's take alcohol. My wife and I have a glass of wine (usually with some dark chocolate
) 3 to 4 times per week while watching television. We are not wine addicts. But let's pretend we have 12 glasses of wine (of course, with dark chocolate) per evening, 7 days per week. That probably is an addiction. At what point along that path did we become alcoholics? The answer: It is not directly about the number of glasses of wine we drink but all about why we drink the wine. But 12 glasses of wine per day is, in my opinion, "not a matter of perspective". And that was me in audio. It was not about the awesome equipment that I purchased (and lots of it), it was about what drove the purchases. When I first began to sense that my audio hobby had crossed the line, I was, at the same time, reading some book, and a short discussion of addiction was covered. Curious, I then purchased a book on addictive behavior, and in it, (don't recall the name of the book) it listed many of the possible attributes of an addictive personality and addictive behavior. I met every single attribute. I could no longer honestly try to kid myself that audio was just a hobby.
One of the most refreshing honest and rare post I have ever seen in the WBF.
However much we may avoid this issue. Snobbism is there. A person buys a Magico, Wilson, YG, Rockport, Gryphon loudspeakers ... Endless "Congrats" , thumbs ups, et.. Same (worse) or another person come here and declare he just bought a JBL , yawns , poorly veiled sneers, at best indifference ... Snobbery is endemic to our hobby and perhaps any hobby.. A guy comes with a Leica ... yeah! He/she's elite.. he/she knows stuff... Please read this URL >> HERE<<< . when it comes to taking real pictures the Leica M9 is blown away by the 4 times cheaper Nikon D600... Truly blown away ... Now in Audio, in that non static thing we call music, Biases are much more difficult to eliminate and we find many talking about toe tapping as being a metric , with all-seriousness, so it will continue to be so and a Klipsch still will not be held in the same esteem as a Wilson... Nor a Mac as a Dagostino.
Now, a mea culpa . I am guilty of that snobbery as any hobbyist: A WBF member Joelinid has the Klipsch Cornwall. In a post in which he was discussing about an amp, I suggested to him without EVER having heard his Cornwalls that his system would improve by a change of speakers!!! Difficult to find a better display of snobbery coupled with ignorance and arrogance ... The intention wasn't negative, but the attitude, unconscious, to my belated defense, was ... Sorry Joeinid
Like Audioguy I am progressing and am very mindful of my own audio choices. I listen to more music and my sights are toward a system that will provide satisfaction to my ears...
... The above may not true for everyone but to paraphrase Audioguy, it was for me. Until recently
Frantz,
IMHO your post just means you do not understand WBF and our mutual friendship in this forum - congratulations are not exactly on the gear, but mostly on the feelings of the owner. People who share their equipment, opinions, emotions and adventures get accolades.
Even worst, it also means that you only read WBF posts concerning high price equipment and ignore the posts on great gear at more reasonable prices.
Sorry, but I am currently a member of WBF, not (yet
) a member of Audiophile Anonymous. YMMV ...
Frantz,
IMHO your post just means you do not understand WBF and our mutual friendship in this forum - congratulations are not exactly on the gear, but mostly on the feelings of the owner. People who share their equipment, opinions, emotions and adventures get accolades.
Even worst, it also means that you only read WBF posts concerning high price equipment and ignore the posts on great gear at more reasonable prices.
Sorry, but I am currently a member of WBF, not (yet
microstrip
however much you want to slant it .. Try to be honest for a second or 2
.. You may fail but do try ... When Dallasjustice posted that he went from YG to JBL how many congrats did he receive? His feelings were certainly at play here. He liked what he acquired. please do show me how many congrats he received... to use your terms IMHO there would be some of us who would congratulate him for his feeling. so
You infer it was a matter of price not I .. Mac are not cheap nor are JBL speakers at least the ones Dalla acquired ..
Have you gleaned my post and see how many times I have posted about things as diverse as Fridge, Coffee machines or watches? or AV receivers or cheap but interesting
Terms like even worst means you paid no attention to the tenor of my post and simply went to a knee-jerk reactions .... How many times I have suggested gear that I think of distinction but modest prices e.g Magnepan ... even cheap hears such as the iFi nanoDac about which I wrote ... I would say that I do strongly believe that prices are not an indication of quality you OTOH ... What are you talking about? Bro?
... I continue to be an audiophile and a member of WBF.. Is there a given type of posts that you would deem worthy of those?
If it isn't about the music, then we don't need an audio business/hobby? What are we going to use to spin our LPs?
Who is going to go dancing on a Saturday night @ the jazz club cabaret, on the rhythm of the live jazz band?
Music is our real business, business of the heart and soul. Audio is needed to play with our emotions, audio provides the sacred grounds to spin our heads around and have fun with our bank accounts by playing numbers. As the world keeps orbiting, and with us sitting on it, the gravitational force is strong.
@ the end there is Live music, and there is Reproduced music. The later is the audio game. But without music there's no game.
Thank you for this balanced post, Dave. What you say may be true for many of us, but for some there will be something darker going on, as Audioguy's experience testifies.
I often like to look at the sunnier side of things, as you do in your post, but lately this has become more and more difficult for me with things audio. I do see all those problems with "more expensive = better", the luxury aspect of things that distracts from the pure audio aspect, and the addictions.
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