Are we sometimes disillusioned in this audio business/hobby?

NorthStar · Feb 10, 2017

Is it all nice and true everything new and highly praised by many?
Is there something underneath the surface that we don't know and are not supposed to know?

Are we sometimes so much in love with our audio that we get blinded by the audio truth?
Do we love what we love because that's love for us or because we just don't know the underground?

This is not general, this is epidemic...I think. I call it the "audio disease", the "fake audio", like the sad truth we cannot escape from because of our natural human weakness...money and superficial world of magic illusions. Our faith keeps us adrift, our faith in the superficial world of materialism/capitalism.
We have a hard time to admit the balance of truth and equality, to tell the material things by their real names/merits.
After all, humans aren't perfect and humans are machine's/chip's programmers designing our audio components.

Am I a little right or am I a little wrong?

This is not general, just a window of the bigger picture...I think.
What is it that we're all looking for from our audio components? ...Established and undeniable top-notch performance with solid reliability from ownership and proven listening experience, or some' else with even more positive aggressivity from concrete numbers that don't lie!
What kind of truth turns us on, the one we love to follow till death do us part?

spiritofmusic · Feb 10, 2017

NorthStar, I've semi retired to the UK country at the age of 52 to practice some more "slow living" ie more home cooking, country walks and driving, live classical and jazz in The Sticks, bird watching, cloud busting, star gazing...
...and, a small fortune spent on a dedicated room which
1/ gets me a massive upstick in sq, new music collection as a result, and
2/ gets me off the upgrade merry go round, save for a once and only investment in streamer/dac

This move has cemented my recent upgrading history where over the last decade esp I've actively chosen to invest in smaller, niche, less well known brands like Soundsmith, Eera, Nat, Zu, Sablon, Symposium, Entreq
Whether it's reverse snobbism, or I'm onto something, the sheer price/performance ratio of these products fills me w pride that I've invested my hard earned w them, and I have personal contact w the head designers of many of them eg Sean of Zu, Peter of Soundsmith, Mark of Sablon, Peter of Symposium
This combination of discovering and sticking w cult/underground brands, and a personal connection, gives me an additional pleasure beyond the fact that their gear performs beyond their price points
Choosing brands is a v personal endeavour beyond simple considerations of "does it sound any good"

NorthStar · Feb 10, 2017

My post is too vague I think. But I wanted to be that way, because of all the various perspectives.

I agree 100% with what you've just said. As long as the music is playing without interruption and that it floats the boat that we're sailing on, with the waves gently rockin' the stern and the winds delicately swelling the sails. The steering wheel on auto pilot when governed by the presence of a beautiful imagery, tangible imagery; a voluptuous siren erupting from the ocean's depth @ the surface of the majestic horizon. .

It can also happen @ the top of a skyscraper in Dubai, relaxing in the penthouse's outside swimming pool (like in the film 'Oblivion'), and it can happen in the country side peacefully nested @ the mountain's highest snow peak with the rarest bird of them all, another beautiful siren but that one from the blue waters of the sky.
______

I was more thinking about new products that don't deliver yet the new promised technologies, but waiting to appear later on anyway.
Digital Ready, Analog Ready, Future Ready, Vision Ready, Molecule Ready, DNA impregnated, ...that type of product's line with a pitch of future security.
And audio products with fatal attractions (love @ first sight, lush) and also later discoveries of fatal flaws (toilet's drain, flush).

kach22i · Feb 15, 2017

NorthStar said:
What is it that we're all looking for from our audio components?

I heard or read recently that music is related to sex.

Maybe our brains get fooled into thinking music is sex?

If so, then maybe we are looking for love in all the wrong places.

Looking for intimacy from some sort of made-made surrogate.

We are all cyborgs, at least according to the TVO program I watched last night. I think this is directly related to the topic, not an attempt at sidetracking anyone.

Anyways, in the TVO (Television Ontario) program the host actor Paul Giamatti participates in a bunch of experiments and interviews a bunch of scientists.

The rubber hand experiment was interesting.

Paul Giamatti Experiences The Rubber Hand Illusion: How Sight, Touch, And Perception Can be Fooled
http://www.medicaldaily.com/pulse/p...-how-sight-touch-and-perception-can-be-360450
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DphlhmtGRqI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I currently cannot find the episode the rubber hand was in (looks to be a National Geographic item), they also did a doll feet exercise which blew my mind. Another item featured; a deaf man can feel sound vibrations though back stimulation by wearing a vest, and identifies over a dozen spoken words though the sensors/vibrators actions.

My point being that the brain can adapt to near substitutions and fill in the blank.

Paul G. talks about that program here:

Breakthrough - More than Human
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/breakthrough-series/videos/paul-giamatti-on-human-engineering/

Not sure where you can view it, worth watching if your are into sci-fi or science.

This looks promising:

What music does to the human brain
http://tvo.org/article/current-affairs/shared-values/what-music-does-to-the-human-brain

Trainor’s research is a long way from providing a comprehensive explanation for our deeply emotional connection to music. But she has certainly scratched the surface of this fascinating area of neuroscientific inquiry. And her desire for a better understanding of the power of music is an itch she doesn’t plan to ignore.

Bobvin · Feb 15, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
NorthStar, I've semi retired to the UK country at the age of 52 to practice some more "slow living" ie more home cooking, country walks and driving, live classical and jazz in The Sticks, bird watching, cloud busting, star gazing...
...and, a small fortune spent on a dedicated room which
1/ gets me a massive upstick in sq, new music collection as a result, and
2/ gets me off the upgrade merry go round, save for a once and only investment in streamer/dac

Spirit, first, nice you get to retire at 52. Most only dream of early retirement (personally I'm back at school at 59.) But 2nd, your post includes a term "cloud busting" and I'm curious to know what you mean by that... as I am aware of this term only with repect to the work of Wilhelm Reich. (Perhaps a conversation better had via pm or email.)

Rodney Gold · Feb 15, 2017

I am semi retired at 58 with some health issues..I spend around 4-5 hrs a day in my dedicated room with my system.
All Im looking for is that listening to my system must always be an "experience" , I want to be surprised and amazed and at one with the music every time. Eventually that leads to another purchase as you become "jaded"
My system is very simple, but highly configurable .. so luckily I have a lot of settings I can play with before finally blowing my next wad .. which I am about to do

The deep dark current is most likely our own OCD'ness and a skewed sense of value in terms of very small differences and diminishing returns

thedudeabides · Feb 15, 2017

Depends on your level of neurosis.

JackD201 · Feb 15, 2017

In a word....naaaah. To to me any hobby is about learning. Disillusionment comes when you cling to much to what you know NOW when in truth, paradigms continue to shift.

Mostly though, I think we simply overthink things.

DaveC · Feb 15, 2017

JackD201 said:
In a word....naaaah. To to me any hobby is about learning. Disillusionment comes when you cling to much to what you know NOW when in truth, paradigms continue to shift.

Mostly though, I think we simply overthink things.

Good answer!

RogerD · Feb 15, 2017

You can get disillusioned if you don't have the necessary disposable income to play this game as the best is priced for Kings and Queens. I did not despair though,I looked at the equipment I had collected over the years and took the stance that good engineering should prevail. So I read about reducing EMI and noise,which led me to recap my preamp,buy the best DAC i could find,upgrading a few cables and the most important thing,increasing my equipments pathway to ground. All this allowed me to have exceptional sound at 1990 prices.....so I repealed the merry-go-round and the angst that comes with it. Sometimes with a little common sense you can break through barriers and for me I love challenges. Tell me that it can't be done...and I'll do the impossible.

audioguy · Feb 15, 2017

I don't think I am disillusioned, but I have had a great case of the "practical" hit me. Even if I were still working full time and had the kind of disposable income I previously had, the cost to make real and significant audible improvements has gone way beyond whatever I am willing to pay, regardless of my pay grade. So while I still spend money (don't think that ever stops), the numbers are significantly smaller. I am focused on improving what I already have by continually trying new kinds of target curves for Dirac on my SSP, working on refining my room acoustics and improving the accuracy of my bass response (the "foundation" of all music). Also, as I have gotten more into the video side of my hobby, I have made some changes to make that part more fun (but not necessarily better) by investing in the Kaleidescape System.

Each time I sit down to listen to music in my room, I am still amazed at how enjoyable it is. (I no longer listen to my 2 channel music with 2 channels) But I will confess, not much lower on the enjoyment scale is what I hear when I ask "Alexa" to play jazz on the 2 speakers I have by my computer monitor ($250 for the pair).

twitch · Feb 15, 2017

RogerD said:
You can get disillusioned if you don't have the necessary disposable income to play this game as the best is priced for Kings and Queens. I did not despair though,I looked at the equipment I had collected over the years and took the stance that good engineering should prevail. So I read about reducing EMI and noise,which led me to recap my preamp,buy the best DAC i could find,upgrading a few cables and the most important thing,increasing my equipments pathway to ground. All this allowed me to have exceptional sound at 1990 prices.....so I repealed the merry-go-round and the angst that comes with it. Sometimes with a little common sense you can break through barriers and for me I love challenges. Tell me that it can't be done...and I'll do the impossible.

"Roger that" ........

NorthStar · Feb 15, 2017

kach22i said:
I heard or read recently that music is related to sex.

Maybe our brains get fooled into thinking music is sex?

If so, then maybe we are looking for love in all the wrong places.

Looking for intimacy from some sort of made-made surrogate.

We are all cyborgs, at least according to the TVO program I watched last night. I think this is directly related to the topic, not an attempt at sidetracking anyone.

Anyways, in the TVO (Television Ontario) program the host actor Paul Giamatti participates in a bunch of experiments and interviews a bunch of scientists.

The rubber hand experiment was interesting.

Paul Giamatti Experiences The Rubber Hand Illusion: How Sight, Touch, And Perception Can be Fooled
http://www.medicaldaily.com/pulse/p...-how-sight-touch-and-perception-can-be-360450
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DphlhmtGRqI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I currently cannot find the episode the rubber hand was in (looks to be a National Geographic item), they also did a doll feet exercise which blew my mind. Another item featured; a deaf man can feel sound vibrations though back stimulation by wearing a vest, and identifies over a dozen spoken words though the sensors/vibrators actions.

My point being that the brain can adapt to near substitutions and fill in the blank.

Paul G. talks about that program here:

Breakthrough - More than Human
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/breakthrough-series/videos/paul-giamatti-on-human-engineering/

Not sure where you can view it, worth watching if your are into sci-fi or science.

This looks promising:

What music does to the human brain
http://tvo.org/article/current-affairs/shared-values/what-music-does-to-the-human-brain

This' the best post I've read from the WBF's archives in quite a while, since it was first founded...I think.
______

I've watched a film last night; 'Arrival' - the music score was . . . spatially . . . orgasmic. ...Like an interstellar communion inside a black communication hole system.

andromedaaudio · Feb 15, 2017

Disillusioned ??

Yes maybe 8 years ago searching for this searching for that , these days I have pretty much arrived , pretty satisfied with the sound reproduction .
I could improve the room more thats about it , a lower noise floor , better diffusion and a bit lower reverberation time .
Only thing I feel I can improve on is refurbish my tape machines a bit more / buy another one :band get some more high quality tapes from different sources

FrantzM · Feb 15, 2017

RogerD said:
You can get disillusioned if you don't have the necessary disposable income to play this game as the best is priced for Kings and Queens. I did not despair though,I looked at the equipment I had collected over the years and took the stance that good engineering should prevail. So I read about reducing EMI and noise,which led me to recap my preamp,buy the best DAC i could find,upgrading a few cables and the most important thing,increasing my equipments pathway to ground. All this allowed me to have exceptional sound at 1990 prices.....so I repealed the merry-go-round and the angst that comes with it. Sometimes with a little common sense you can break through barriers and for me I love challenges. Tell me that it can't be done...and I'll do the impossible.

I will leave the discussions on the search to eliminate noise to another thread ...

I don;t think it was your intention but this post continue to carry the fallacy that more expensive = better. I read this in this very WBF and it is to me telling. I am paraphrasing it. I am not verbatim (perhaps someone could help me as it refers to an essay or book I intend to purchase) : "In the absence of clear metrics price becomes the criterion. The more expensive the better." That is the case in Luxury markets. A stainless steel Patek Philip is perceived "better" than a ss Rolex Submariner itself better than a ss Tag Heuer Aquaracer... If survival is at stakes however and for people doing the real deep dive you will see them with a variety of watches much cheaper but truly and measurably better s than any of those .. among these the Casio G-shock, Seiko and Citizen .... most often they wear something looking like a watch but is actually a dive computer the more expensive models rarely go over $1000 and the most popular are around $300 ... Audio is not life and death fortunately

We have been led to think more expensive = better to almost a subconscious level this has led to a certain amount of disillusion from me. I see too many times people going in lateral moves all the while claiming that it is best. I am annoyed that there is almost a conscious effort to push away any search for clear metrics of quality in audio reproduction.
Disillusioned in the business ? Yes , in retrospect however, what was I thinking back then? Really?? It is a business. The purpose of those in this business is to make money by means available to them ... yet I would grant you that I remain disillusioned by the business side of High End Audio.

In the hobby itself .. Oh no! Getting more enthusiastic every day ... And now thanks to technology and the Internet there is much more music at literally our fingertips. We're living some interesting times

microstrip · Feb 15, 2017

FrantzM said:
(...) I am annoyed that there is almost a conscious effort to push away any search for clear metrics of quality in audio reproduction. (...)

Frantz,

It is just the instinct of survival

. Currently most of those openly proposing such "clear" metrics only aim to destroy the high-end. Unfortunately they do not suggest or fight for anything constructive.

Sorry to annoy you ...

FrantzM · Feb 15, 2017

microstrip said:
Frantz,

It is just the instinct of survival . Currently most of those openly proposing such "clear" metrics only aim to destroy the high-end. Unfortunately they do not suggest or fight for anything constructive.

Sorry to annoy you ...

No You haven't ... And I frankly believe you are right. There is mystic that needs to be associated with luxury items, that air of exclusivity... of making the owner special... Indeed .. reducing things to mere measurable parameters is not fun or sexy or remunerative ... But frankly we are nowhere near that. There is a lot to learn and a lot we don't know ... yet. The human ear will retain its place for a while

NorthStar · Feb 15, 2017

Essay: World of Audio Disillusion Impregnated By No Others Than Us | Sex, Money And Power ?

Without taking any side, and with very restricted life's experience, in my opinion there is a fair balance for each one of us.
It is that fair balance where and when in peace with the unknown space of the universe that we start to have a small glimpse @ the grander picture.
All opinions are valid, more or less...it all depends...everything/everyone is important...it's all relevant in the theory of relativity.

Disenchantment in the face of reality, known and unknown, is a real stance.
The search of the unknown is a perpetual/eternal quest. It is @ the edge of extermination that we find the resources of a better comprehension.

Disillusionment comes from our interpretation of the laws established to distilled the impurities.

In simple practical words; we only know as far as the balance between illusion and reality. And that knowledge is an effervescence in a scientific world of explorations and theories. Our beliefs can easily be misconstrued by our own oneself. If trying to persuade our environment with others living in it; it can produce illusionary chain reactions, from more or less different levels of amplitude.

No one has the absolute truth in this audio business passion that attracts us like a deep addiction from the highs we get when shooting ourselves in front of some loudspeakers. The illusion can be revelatory as it can be revolutionary. And it's not the same intensity for even two identical people (twins say).

True, music is sex. It's an addiction, like a shot of morphine. There is no illusion about this; it envelops the listener fully from inside out...to the depth of all his/her senses passing through the heart, soul and mind of any living thing...humans, trees, flowers, animals, planets in orbit, ...everything moving and alive.

Sound is travel. Music is procreation. Audio is survival. Us, we exist in the time and space that we live, no more and no less.
There is no illusion @ creating our own audio/music world. There are 7.35 billion different human worlds within the whole planet Earth today. This is not an illusion, it's a fact. The rest is up to us; who we follow if it's not us.

andromedaaudio · Feb 15, 2017

I don't really agree

If high end would bring some more common sense to the table , and things that can be measured would be measured , the overall standard can be lifted .
If you don't measure what can be measured high end keeps sometimes bathing in some kind of mysticism.

If all that money that is poored in 30 K cables and what not , would be used to develop a SOTA. modern day tape machine ,....then ....
I think that will forever be a dream.

NorthStar · Feb 15, 2017

andromedaaudio said:
I don't really agree

If high end would bring some more common sense to the table , and things that can be measured would be measured , the overall standard can be lifted .
If you don't measure what can be measured high end keeps sometimes bathing in some kind of mysticism.

If all that money that is poored in 30 K cables and what not , would be used to develop a SOTA. modern day tape machine ,....then ....
I think that will forever be a dream.

Then if what you say is true we need everyone.

Are we sometimes disillusioned in this audio business/hobby?

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