Anybody Knows How Bass is Supposed to Sound?

Mike Lavigne · Feb 10, 2017

microstrip said:
We can not separate bass performance from the overall system balance and characteristics. Each of us will address the bass performance of his favorite system, of his dream system or of his best friend system, and we will find they are all technically very different ...

In my limited experience digital needs a different type of bass than vinyl. It is mostly a feeling, I have not data enough to support it.

I think that the difference between vinyl bass and digital bass has to do with the character of your vinyl system. vinyl can be very, very, linear.......or it can be 'something different'. it is maybe more challenging to take the linear vinyl approach as the whole system needs to line up that way. but you can play various formats from the same mic feed and it's possible for all of them to be cut from the same cloth. only different in degrees of information. not character differences.

but if your digital is solid state, and maybe you don't even use a preamp, but your vinyl includes a tubed preamp, a tubed phono stage, and a cartridge which might not be totally linear, now you have a divergence of reference points and then, sure, you do have your system lean one way or another. but this situation is of your choosing, and not a fundamental truth.

systems can be equally complimentary to both digital and vinyl.

if so, you do tend to move toward overall system synergy. maybe it's why I preferred the Aqua Formula to the GG or Nagra HD in my system.......it lines up closer to my linear vinyl and the system itself.

Rodney Gold · Feb 10, 2017

I like electronica , yello , zimmer, deep forest ...got a big room and I like it loud..some seriously low bass there that you feel viscerally..decent output to 20hz and below matters ... so long as its controlled

Robh3606 · Feb 10, 2017

I like electronica , yello , zimmer, deep forest ...got a big room and I like it loud..some seriously low bass there that you feel viscerally..decent output to 20hz and below matters ... so long as its controlled

Yes me too and controlled and uncompressed are the key. You should hear the pitch change on every note clearly and when VLF comes in it's visceral and clean almost count the cycles and pants flappin! Just like the real thing at a live show!

Rob

RogerD · Feb 10, 2017

bonzo75 said:
I too listen to bass on orchestral, and bass is supposed to exist in space. The tympani or bass drum strike might be down in front of you, but the sound comes from the whole stage towards you and is everywhere. I find most speakers do a point strike - some from the woofer down below, or from part of a column. The best examples of bass coming from a whole plane, top to bottom, side to side, with decay has been with the restored Apogees. With pile driver kick drums.

Best example of low noise and bass capability of woofers enhancing the whole system, including the bloom of string instruments, has been Mike Lavigne's system, so people should pay careful attention to what he wrote up their though almost no one else will be able to go implement it

And the best slam bam bass and a more practical way of using woofers to crossover from speakers can be learned by following Marty.

Bonzo, as you say the bass should be invisible,but still have sock,weight and articulation. This is a key marker from a very low noise floor. Not to say setup and the design of a system does not have a lot to do with this level of transparency. The reference recordings have wonderful types of bass,clean,powerful,extremely articulate. I have never heard a RR recording that doesn't fully integrate all aspects and is not invisible, the recording Crown Imperial is a good example.

amirm · Feb 10, 2017

Rodney Gold said:
Every week or 2 I use the CARA test disc and run closely spaced tones from 20 - 200hz..at pretty high volumes and every time I do it , there is something else in the room that resonates merrily along .. find these and damp them.. you have no idea of how this "cleans up" the bass
You will also be surprised at exactly whats buzzing , resonating or rattling ...took me 1/2 an hour to track down a shade of one of my spotlights that was buzzing....

It is a sobering experience, isn't it? I had my new media room purpose built with all these instructions to the builder. I move in and run that sweep and could not believe all the buzzing from the HVAC vents. It was hell getting them to come and deal with it, and at the end despite all the goop they put on it, it still is not right. Kudos to you for running it frequently. I don't feel like getting depressed that often.

bonzo75 · Feb 10, 2017

microstrip said:
We can not separate bass performance from the overall system balance and characteristics. Each of us will address the bass performance of his favorite system, of his dream system or of his best friend system, and we will find they are all technically very different ...

In my limited experience digital needs a different type of bass than vinyl. It is mostly a feeling, I have not data enough to support it.

No, we compare to live show bass and then decide on favorite system. Digital bass sucks compared to vinyl, on orchestral, led zep, and nirvana.

For a simple speaker system which most will have, they will need DSP with woofers or maybe that new CR1 type JL.But a normal cone will produce insufficient bass. Ang then people try to get bigger cones in smaller rooms and it gets worse.

FrantzM · Feb 10, 2017

bonzo75 said:
No, we compare to live show bass and then decide on favorite system. Digital bass sucks compared to vinyl, on orchestral, led zep, and nirvana.

For a simple speaker system which most will have, they will need DSP with woofers or maybe that new CR1 type JL.But a normal cone will produce insufficient bass. Ang then people try to get bigger cones in smaller rooms and it gets worse.

You got to be kidding !! I know this is a highly subjective hobby and whatnot but .... Man!!! The things I have seen people write and with an air of absolute truth! Digital bass sucks !!! Really!?!??? .. This kind of statements are not helping. I am fully aware that the likely readers or posters at WBF are seasoned audiophiles yet some come here to learn and this is as wrong as it can be ...
So is most of the rest but I 'll stop there...

NorthStar · Feb 10, 2017

A synthesizer produces digital bass, Yello's bass is digital, Daft Punk's bass is digital. How can digital bass suck?

Acoustic analog bass is much more sophisticated to tune properly; the phase/coherence, the timbre, the tonality, the modality, the sustain, the decay, the naturalness.
What kind of cone material is best? ..Say for organ music.

And if using multiple subwoofers, multiple channels from a movie like 'Interstellar' reproduction in our room theaters, with the implementation of say from Room Perfect or from Dirac Live or from Illusonic, ...; this is the digital domain of 'Dead Can Dance', of 'Yello', of 'Daft Punk', of 'Michael Sterns', of 'Mickey Hart', of organ synthesizers...with bass that pulverizes our emotions to smithereens, and everything else attached to them, including our underwears (if we wear some), and our brain's flapping vents.

Size matters, the room matters. ...Everything matters (Mike Lavigne's powerful linear contentment).

The music matters, the music we listen to; and each music has its own bass definition, and recorded with its own unique character...very true that.
Each music recording engineer exercises constancy within its own time frame and space. From one to another that consistence loses its essence; one music engineer to another, one music recording label to another, one microphone's brand and positioning to another...

How do you know how bass is supposed to sound @ all times with all music recordings and in all rooms?
Who knows, everybody knows? ...Like Leonard Cohen's song from the first post.
Can you measure or say how it truly goes?

Gorgeous day here today by the way.

RogerD · Feb 10, 2017

bonzo75 said:
No, we compare to live show bass and then decide on favorite system. Digital bass sucks compared to vinyl, on orchestral, led zep, and nirvana.

For a simple speaker system which most will have, they will need DSP with woofers or maybe that new CR1 type JL.But a normal cone will produce insufficient bass. Ang then people try to get bigger cones in smaller rooms and it gets worse.

Digital bass sucks compared to vinyl, on orchestral, led zep, and nirvana.

Depends on the system. Although last time I compared my tape to digital there was a difference,but the resolution of the system has increased. I think at some point that window of difference closes somewhat. Both have pluses and minuses. Anyway if my system bass sucks compared to live I'll gladly take it. Listen to Teldec Shostakovich #8 Rostropovich

Yuri Korzunov · Feb 10, 2017

NorthStar said:
[video]http://www.vevo.com/watch/leonard-cohen/Everybody-Knows/CAC231400059[/video]

Say you have full range loudspeakers with multiple large woofers, or restricted bass response loudspeakers with separate subwoofer(s).
How do you know how to balance the bass in your room with the other frequencies of the audio spectrum?
Do you use an audio test album/disc with a SPL meter, and your ears while listening to the acoustic bass accompanying Diana Krall or Patricia Barber?

For the purists, without subs; do you adjust the bass control behind your speakers, or on your pre/pro?
And, is there a bass control on your pre/pro? ...Or even behind your speakers?

For the non-purists, with subs; how do you feel about DSP subwoofers? Or would you rather have a DSP pre/pro to perform the task?

Brief, bass management by any method available to get the best sounding bass in all its referential purity. And how is it supposed to sound?
...Acoustically married/balanced in perfect synchronicity and phase to your room and ears and measurements.

Last, can you reproduce accurately ... say a drum kit? ...The lowest note of the piano? ...Of a synthesizer? ...Of an organ?

Sweep sine test signal and panoramic SPL meter (including auto mode) is the best option for adjusting subwoofer.

Non-panoramic SPL meter and software generator or test files second option.
Generator better way, because need exactly found resonance frequencies.

When I tuned subwoofer, I have not any SPL-meter, so I used special test files with own synthesed sine sequence in frequency range of subwoofer and low range of frontal speakers.

Number of experiments show me, that need to create special sequence. I suppose, it depend on frequency response.

Sequence of tones on different frequencies allow listen difference between these frequencies (keep in audio memory in the brain). So we can compare non-neighbour frequencies this way.

My sub have controls: cut frequency, several types of filter (I suppose with different steepness), level, dynamic range.

First I played back music with powerful bass (electronic). Set subwoofer for satisfied sound.

Further, I change one parameter and check, change other and check, etc.

As result sub was tested by music (from classic to electronics) again and slightly corrected by volume.

Sub should not be separate audible. If we listen sub separatelly, it mean what sub wrong adjusted.

Al M. · Feb 11, 2017

FrantzM said:
You got to be kidding !! I know this is a highly subjective hobby and whatnot but .... Man!!! The things I have seen people write and with an air of absolute truth! Digital bass sucks !!! Really!?!??? .. This kind of statements are not helping. I am fully aware that the likely readers or posters at WBF are seasoned audiophiles yet some come here to learn and this is as wrong as it can be ...
So is most of the rest but I 'll stop there...

Yes, this is a ridiculous statement, I fully and emphatically agree. It might have been true 20 years ago, but not anymore.

BTW, the bass on CD masterings of Led Zep which Bonzo mentions does often suck, it's anemic, but that has nothing to do with the digital medium itself, which these days can produce outstanding bass. My remedy, turn up the sub. Sounds great in my system. In cases like this it's actually an advantage that my main speakers don't go that low; you can fill in the midbass as well as the low bass with the sub, it's a more linear remedy for bass shy recordings (but you could do it with DSP as well, of course).

But on some LP pressings the bass on Led Zep is nothing to write home about either.

NorthStar · Feb 11, 2017

Yuri Korzunov said:
Sweep sine test signal and panoramic SPL meter (including auto mode) is the best option for adjusting subwoofer.
Non-panoramic SPL meter and software generator or test files second option.
Generator better way, because need exactly found resonance frequencies.
When I tuned subwoofer, I have not any SPL-meter, so I used special test files with own synthesed sine sequence in frequency range of subwoofer and low range of frontal speakers.
Number of experiments show me, that need to create special sequence. I suppose, it depend on frequency response.
Sequence of tones on different frequencies allow listen difference between these frequencies (keep in audio memory in the brain). So we can compare non-neighbour frequencies this way.
My sub have controls: cut frequency, several types of filter (I suppose with different steepness), level, dynamic range.
First I played back music with powerful bass (electronic). Set subwoofer for satisfied sound.
Further, I change one parameter and check, change other and check, etc.
As result sub was tested by music (from classic to electronics) again and slightly corrected by volume.
Sub should not be separate audible. If we listen sub separatelly, it mean what sub wrong adjusted.

Sounds like a good method to me Yuri. Multiple subs have to be balanced equally; gain and phase. And best to have them equidistant to the MLP.

I use DSP Room EQ, after balancing the two subs with a SPL meter and test tones from a disc.
I am soiled, non-pure, sold, old (over 18), inconsequential. It sounds alright to me, realistically illusional. :b

Hiring a pro acoustician would be one of the best options for most people, including I.
Mark Seaton, a member here, would know one thing or more.... http://seatonsound.net/

metaphacts · Feb 11, 2017

Interesting thread for sure.

Have a son who started with a cello in elementary school, moved to the bass and had bands in the basement for many years. He's 32 now and spends most of his life on the road as a touring bass player in a rock and roll (alternative) band. Most of what passes for bass in a system, even a killer high end system, is very far from reality. The combination of tone, textures and dynamics is almost non-existent in some of the most revered and supposedly state of the art systems.

Of course as always, YMMV.

Yuri Korzunov · Feb 11, 2017

NorthStar said:
Sounds like a good method to me Yuri. Multiple subs have to be balanced equally; gain and phase. And best to have them equidistant to the MLP.

I use DSP Room EQ, after balancing the two subs with a SPL meter and test tones from a disc.
I am soiled, non-pure, sold, old (over 18), inconsequential. It sounds alright to me, realistically illusional. :b

Hiring a pro acoustician would be one of the best options for most people, including I.

I used things and skills that I had under hand

Hiring of professional is the right way.
There are many details: Increasing of level by EQ, where acoustic downfall, is not effective, as example.
Also room acoustic may be used as sound enhancer.

Me seems first need model room in a computer software (even implemented already).
After system implementations, first adjust by mechanical way (placement of speakers, panels, sound traps, etc.).
After it apply DSP.

Rodney Gold · Feb 11, 2017

You can do it yourself very easily these days and gain a lot of understanding of how your room works and interacts with the speakers

DIY trapping can look very attractive , measuring requires a $75 usb mic..
You start with the bare essentials and can add more at cheap costs
tons of tutorials/articles out there that can guide you
room/speaker optimization is not a black art..

Here is a picture of my DIY 4" thick flat panel corner traps

bonzo75 · Feb 11, 2017

Al M. said:
Yes, this is a ridiculous statement, I fully and emphatically agree. It might have been true 20 years ago, but not anymore.

BTW, the bass on CD masterings of Led Zep which Bonzo mentions does often suck, it's anemic, but that has nothing to do with the digital medium itself, which these days can produce outstanding bass. My remedy, turn up the sub. Sounds great in my system. In cases like this it's actually an advantage that my main speakers don't go that low; you can fill in the midbass as well as the low bass with the sub, it's a more linear remedy for bass shy recordings (but you could do it with DSP as well, of course).

But on some LP pressings the bass on Led Zep is nothing to write home about either.

I said relative. Not in isolation.

andromedaaudio · Feb 11, 2017

I ll try to record/ upload some 40 hz and higher performance/bass guitar this weekend , with a 20 watt transistor amp , dont need a 1000 watts class D for snap /dynamics.

audioguy · Feb 11, 2017

metaphacts said:
Most of what passes for bass in a system, even a killer high end system, is very far from reality. The combination of tone, textures and dynamics is almost non-existent in some of the most revered and supposedly state of the art systems.

Of course as always, YMMV.

In my opinion, that is true for the entire frequency range, not just bass. A high end audio system is an awesome way to listen to music, but, in my opinion, is not really close to the real deal. We can, on very rare occasion, get fooled for moments, but that's only because we don't have instant access to the real deal. Not a reason to not chase the best that reproduced audio has to offer. Just sayin'

JackD201 · Feb 11, 2017

FrantzM said:
Hi

Bass is one of those areas for which manya audiophiles profess a certain condescension. THose who seek the ultimate in bass are seen by many as "bassheads" and from that point not worthy to voice their opinions. The audiophile saying is that the "midrange" is where most of the music is .. true to a point , if the bass is wrong EVERYTHING will sound wrong even if the music doesn't seem to have any bass.. For illustration listen to a chamber piece on a full range system then on a limited range ( i-e weak bass system).

I'm chuckling right now because I've been called a bass head at times.

YES! I am a bass head but only good bass please!

No one note and worse droning bass like one would find on those insane car installs.

In my non-expert, limited experience (heck get the disclaimers out of the way from the get go right?), there are three main variables to consider if one wants to get close to live bass at home. The first for me would be the selection of a target peak pressure levels. Next would be room size which links directly to low frequency reverberation. Last would be the amp and loudspeaker combo that would allow you to get there across the spectrum without any strain/breakup. That is a pretty tall order. The paradox is, the smaller the room, the harder to do! If I leave out sources it is only because I believe that whether you are after life like sound or not, one should have the best source he can own. It's a constant.

I believe that the "focus on the midrange" thing is only because I'm pretty sure we all agree that little or no bass is better than lousy bass. Well, either we just have to work harder at getting good bass or just be happy and leave well enough alone. You can't just put a pair of <insert large format loudspeaker here>in a room and assume all will be cool. The first two variables are the more difficult to deal with and in fact should determine your choice of loudspeaker(s) and subsequently, amplification.

Oh, Thanks Stevie

andromedaaudio · Feb 11, 2017

Victor wooten/you tube on bass guitar on a cheapo 20 watt amp , i have the volume at 10 oclock so it can play much harder , some noise at 15 sec in the vid as my other comp started to make some music noise, my room is a bit to reverberant probably also need some more basstraps , havent measured reverberation time yet .

Nice dynamic solo at 3:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59eYWMiXhuA&feature=youtu.be

Anybody Knows How Bass is Supposed to Sound?

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