REF750SE vs VTL Siegfried Mk2

tdh888

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2010
298
28
935
Philippines
Hi guys ,

We had the opportunity to compare the TOL Amps of both companies. The REF 750SE was setup using REF 6 and the REF PHONO 3 . The SIEGFRIED was set up using both the TL7.5 MK3 & TP 6.5 Phonostage. Turntable is Kuzma XL DC W/ two tonearms ( 4 point 14' w/ Ultraeminent Phono cart & 4 point 11' w/ Kuzma CAR 50 Cart ) Speakers we used were the JM LAB Grand Utopia EM . Cables & coditioners were TOL Synergistic Research interconnects and speaker cables. This equipments is owned by a single individual. Our local audiophile group preferred the ARC sound . I think the owner as well prefer ARC. He was a diehard VTL fan but when he experienced the ARC sound he was smitten and he acquired ARC Products .

tdh888 IMG_0647.JPG
 

tdh888

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2010
298
28
935
Philippines
IMG_0645.JPG
 

tdh888

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2010
298
28
935
Philippines
IMG_0648.JPG
 

tdh888

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2010
298
28
935
Philippines
Sorry for the quality of the pictures it was taken using the I phone camera .

tdh888
 

tdh888

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2010
298
28
935
Philippines
The liquidity & purity of the midrange , probably because of the upper midrange bloom , w/c is the the trademark of ARC. The VTL's mids is sort of dry . Dynamic contrast & power . From low level to sudden shifts to high level signals the REF 750SE jumps faster and higher , probably because of the more robust power supply. The group thinks the 750SE is a better match to his Grande Utopia's .
Btw Dafos congragulation on your new REF 6 .
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
3,186
1,717
1,260
Alpharetta, Georgia
Love the ARC stuff but I wonder what financing terms one gets when they retube the amps. ;)
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,303
1,420
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Gotta love them big boys :)

I have a bunch of KR KT88s coming for Jim's Siggy Mk2s. I wonder ow they will compare to the stock tubes. I see the Ref now sports KT150s. I like those tubes.
 

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
5,137
2,793
1,898
Encino, CA
The liquidity & purity of the midrange , probably because of the upper midrange bloom , w/c is the the trademark of ARC. The VTL's mids is sort of dry . Dynamic contrast & power . From low level to sudden shifts to high level signals the REF 750SE jumps faster and higher , probably because of the more robust power supply. The group thinks the 750SE is a better match to his Grande Utopia's .
Btw Dafos congragulation on your new REF 6 .

I heard the Ref 250s with KT150s on Grande Utopia at Albert Porter's house and it didn't tax the amps at all. In fact, the 250s will sound better than the 750SE so the owner should save considerable money and re-tubing expense. I suggested to Albert he try a Ref 75SE for fun - I think it might even work.
 

tdh888

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2010
298
28
935
Philippines
Hi Keith ,

The ARC amp of the owner prior to upgrading to the REF 750 SE was a REF 250 but it had KT 120's. The REF 250's at that time sounds taxed when playing music w/ wide dynamic contrast , it seems its running out of gas compared to the Siegfried 2 . Regarding retubing these big amps I myself will blink when its time to retube my REF 610's but I think its worth it . We've tried a REF 75 w/ the Grande Utopia EM's and there is really a midrange magic that seems unique to medium powered amps ( push pull 2 power tubes / ch) there is purity in the mids that the big boys cant emulate. But unfortunately we can only limit ourselves to listening to small ensembles and female vocalist when using the Grande Utopia EM.

tdh888
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,303
1,420
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Hi Tdh is that Sonny's system? Please send my regards :)
 

tdh888

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2010
298
28
935
Philippines

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
5,137
2,793
1,898
Encino, CA
Hi Keith ,

The ARC amp of the owner prior to upgrading to the REF 750 SE was a REF 250 but it had KT 120's. The REF 250's at that time sounds taxed when playing music w/ wide dynamic contrast , it seems its running out of gas compared to the Siegfried 2 . Regarding retubing these big amps I myself will blink when its time to retube my REF 610's but I think its worth it . We've tried a REF 75 w/ the Grande Utopia EM's and there is really a midrange magic that seems unique to medium powered amps ( push pull 2 power tubes / ch) there is purity in the mids that the big boys cant emulate. But unfortunately we can only limit ourselves to listening to small ensembles and female vocalist when using the Grande Utopia EM.

tdh888

What were the meters reading? I don't recall them getting over 25 watts in Albert's large room and he likes to crank them up. Can't help but think the KT150s are the reason - the KT120s don't have as much shove. He has owned the VTL 750s as well.

These are 94dbs/8ohm speakers - 250 watts is a lot on the Grande EM. In fact, Albert and the audio society preferred the Allnic 140 watt mono amps I believe more recently.
 

tdh888

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2010
298
28
935
Philippines
Sorry Keith I was not able to observe the movement of the power meters, because of the distance of the amps from the listening position & the small power analog meters of the REF250 . Compared to the Siegfried 2 you can discern that the VTL was more composed during loud passages. It was able to fill up the room effortlessly w/ music. Could it be also that the speaker impedance of the Grande Utopia EM dips from a friendly 8 ohms down to 3 ohms ? The effect of the KT120's in the REF 250 must have been a reason as well .Another factor could be the sheer size of my friends dedicated listening room (30 feet lenght x 22 feet width x 14 feet height) .
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,303
1,420
1,820
Manila, Philippines
I had no idea Sonny's room was so cavernous. I'm still waiting for an invite :D Maybe one day I can swing by after golf w Cong D. Mendoza and Amonv.
 

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
5,137
2,793
1,898
Encino, CA
Sorry Keith I was not able to observe the movement of the power meters, because of the distance of the amps from the listening position & the small power analog meters of the REF250 . Compared to the Siegfried 2 you can discern that the VTL was more composed during loud passages. It was able to fill up the room effortlessly w/ music. Could it be also that the speaker impedance of the Grande Utopia EM dips from a friendly 8 ohms down to 3 ohms ? The effect of the KT120's in the REF 250 must have been a reason as well .Another factor could be the sheer size of my friends dedicated listening room (30 feet lenght x 22 feet width x 14 feet height) .

well that is a super size room alright - yikes!
 

dafos

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2010
306
0
401
Prepare to gain 5 pounds when you visit Sonny and his gracious wife, pre merienda lunch, lunch, merienda, Pabaon pa ng merienda, try listening seriously as your digestive system saps all energy...but kidding aside, the best grande utopia EM I've heard by a huge margin, and that's before the latest upgrades.

Doc Luigi, laban ba ref 6 sa ref 10?
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing