Harmonic Resolution Systems VXR Stand

spiritofmusic · Feb 4, 2017

Mike, I was just relaying what I'd heard about a possible downside to active isoln as pertains to our possible needs
That these devices were never designed to be used w equipment that creates vast amounts of vibrations themselves, and that they mainly deal w external airborne vibrations or floor borne vibrations
So, electron microscopes etc are quiet in operation and need protection from the world
Tts create a world of chaos w high torque spinning platters etc, and MAYBE lab grade isoln MIGHT not be as comprehensive as passive isolation that isolates from without AND within

bonzo75 · Feb 4, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Mooks better than all the other products you mentioned, that's a blanket statement by definition
Saying you find them to work in lots of situations, but YMMV would be a lot more accurate
And you know what a fanboy I was when I heard the Giants under my cdp back in London, so much so I bought the set from you
So, imagine my reaction when they really didn't work here
I'd say that's the very definition of system dependent
Btw, I do take my music to many demos, eg the Apogee Divas I heard a few days ago
Just didn't fancy lugging my lps to Munich
And as you know I took music to Bill's where I settled in my mind my preference for T&A Dac8 w SGM server over the GG

Both of us didn't see you compare at Bill's

bonzo75 · Feb 4, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Mike, I was just relaying what I'd heard about a possible downside to active isoln as pertains to our possible needs
That these devices were never designed to be used w equipment that creates vast amounts of vibrations themselves, and that they mainly deal w external airborne vibrations or floor borne vibrations
So, electron microscopes etc are quiet in operation and need protection from the world
Tts create a world of chaos w high torque spinning platters etc, and MAYBE lab grade isoln MIGHT not be as comprehensive as passive isolation that isolates from without AND within

That what you heard, and the Spiers Robertson, came from Purite. In this case it's not possible for most of us to compare, so the choice comes to taking his experience or Mike's.

spiritofmusic · Feb 4, 2017

I didn't need to compare at Bill's
Rush "2112" was poor on the GG thru SGM at Bill's TO ME, and stellar on Dac8 thru SGM at Barry's TO ME
I heard enough of other cuts on the GG that day to know it's shortfall on PRaT and overall transparency was a no no FOR ME
And GG presentations I've heard elsewhere just don't speak TO ME
YMMV etc, et al, ad infinitum

The comments re active isolation didn't come from Purite

Steve Williams · Feb 4, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I think we get caught up in 'gear crush' when we look at gear racks. elegance is a strong motivator. some of these racks can get so expensive since they have to look like furniture. it takes lots of secret sauce to get this big massive rack system to overcome all it's resonance. same with those big massive shelves. those are negatives.....and the cost is from fixing the inherent penalty of all that mass.

the Artesania Racks make no pretense of being furniture. your wife will likely hate it. industrial as hell. but there are no shelves. no friggen shelves. the gear just hangs on tunable dampers.

love to place bets on which rack would actually sound the best.

you have to understand exactly how stuff works. less is more.

even the footers on your gear presents problems for all those other racks. the Artesania eliminates that footer issue.

Mike

In all fairness you really have it wrong regarding the racks. It approaches the entire system very scientifically. I would suggest a different way to achieve a similar result. I could say that my entire system is similar to each component being on a Herzan. I heard both Mike and I can say that you would be hard pressed to pick one over another based on hearing. I read the CMS white paper and read the patent. There is enormous science there. Finally if you were to put a Herzan under each of my components the cost would be ridiculously high.....not that the racks aren't but for my money these have been the best I've ever had in my system. As an aside if you're talking ugly racks you can't say that the Herzan is eye candy as it isn't imho

Steve Williams · Feb 4, 2017

FWIW when TechDas releases their AF Zero it will come with an Artesania rack. Go figure

Mike Lavigne · Feb 4, 2017

Steve Williams said:
Mike

In all fairness you really have it wrong regarding the racks. It approaches the entire system very scientifically. I would suggest a different way to achieve a similar result. I could say that my entire system is similar to each component being on a Herzan. I heard both Mike and I can say that you would be hard pressed to pick one over another based on hearing. I read the CMS white paper and read the patent. There is enormous science there. Finally if you were to put a Herzan under each of my components the cost would be ridiculously high.....not that the racks aren't but for my money these have been the best I've ever had in my system. As an aside if you're talking ugly racks you can't say that the Herzan is eye candy as it isn't imho

if I was choosing based on looks, this is what I would get. but it's just a pretty face.

the Herzan is all business. and when I turn out the lights, that is what I hear.

spiritofmusic · Feb 4, 2017

Herzan w lights off, and lights on?
Both good?

stehno · Feb 4, 2017

andromedaaudio said:
Stehno , Finite element is about a lot more then furniture , its designed also in cooperation with an applied science university in germany .

First off, I never said FE was just furniture. If you read the one sentence I mentioned FE specifically, you would notice I said, "From an aesthetics-only perspective...". Surely you're not telling me I'm not entitled to my opinion about FE's good looks, are you?

As for its being designed in cooperation with an applied science university, well, that's nice to know. I guess. What about the next guy coming along and telling me another rack manufacturer has equal qualifications because of their vast experience of driving race cars over chuck holes?

But I suppose based on its industry reputation for performance as well my own speculations, I could say the FE just nice furniture and probably be somewhat accurate.

stehno · Feb 4, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
interesting. so somehow you assume that industry and laboratory/medical science is behind high end audio on decoupling/isolation technology? I'd say you have that 100% backwards. high end audio follows the coat tails of what science is doing. all these rack designers are claiming roots in materials science to one degree or the other.

Frankly, Mike, I never assume anything is much behind high-end audio in any category. And since I'm of the really tiny camp of perhaps 1 or 2, that thinks vibration isolation is contrary to basic laws of physics in that it's pretty much impossible to isolate anything from vibrations, with regard to decoupling / isolation specifically, I happen to think that sector is about on par with high-end audio.

Mike Lavigne said:
if active isolation is state of the art for lab science, then it's state of the art. period. "technology hasn't matured" is way off base.

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am.

Mike Lavigne said:
you could be right that the Artesania is the worst performing of the three racks; I've not heard one. OTOH it has by far the greatest degree of decoupling. and it's not caught up in trying to be furniture.

I think the opposite result is more likely.

It's because from the picture you provided showing areas of this "greatest degree of decoupling" at the shelves that I've little doubt this rack in particular to be the worst performer of the 3 pictured. But like you, I've not heard one either.

But hopefully we can all agree to some extent that vibrations and their effects is a mechanical problem. I'm just saying that if that's true, it would also seem at least to me that a superior mechanical solution could also easily suffice as a proper remedy.

stehno · Feb 4, 2017

DaveyF said:
One thing that is consistently missing from all of these conversations and threads about isolation and the racks that we use to support gear is---

and I believe this is the most important aspect of the whole issue--

WHAT IS THE SUPPORT STANDING ON!!

Because if you are using your stand on a sub floor, or over a multitude of other surfaces...tile, wood, carpet etc., then the effect will be different based on the isolation device and its engineering.

I totally believe that a support that is on a solid concrete slab floor with nothing below it ( i.e. ground level) will behave completely differently than one that is on a suspended floor with joists or ? beneath it. Floor flex for one comes into play here ( and do not think that
you can build a system that is on a second floor or crawl space that doesn't elicit some kind of flex...however small).

Excellent point and I should have included that in my earlier post when I was trying to describe a more holistic approach to addressing vibration-controlling efforts.

One vibration-controlling methodology (decoupling) is primarily the desire to decouple or severe its mechanical conduit from the floor. While a superior mechanical energy transfer method (coupling) should be seeking to tightly couple with the sub-flooring system in the attempt to provide a superior mechanical conduit.

microstrip · Feb 4, 2017

Steve Williams said:
(...) I would suggest a different way to achieve a similar result. I could say that my entire system is similar to each component being on a Herzan. I heard both Mike and I can say that you would be hard pressed to pick one over another based on hearing. (...)

Steve,
Are you saying that you felt that the sound signature of the Hertzan and the CMS racks is the same?

Steve Williams · Feb 4, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
if I was choosing based on looks, this is what I would get. but it's just a pretty face.

the Herzan is all business. and when I turn out the lights, that is what I hear.

View attachment 30902

well if you think your wife is going to hate Artesania I bet I know what she'll think of the above

microstrip · Feb 4, 2017

andromedaaudio said:
I like this one and far from 30 k even with more layers .
4 layers 1230 mm wide 11,500 euro

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/finitelemente/3.html

2010-07-FE-Pagode-edition-OK by andromeda61, on Flickr

When I got my Pagode rack Finite Element did not have this finish - I would have happily paid extra for this great aspect.

Ron Resnick · Feb 4, 2017

This stand looks pretty and living-room friendly but this stand does not look very sturdy to me. I would think having the supports at the corners would make the whole thing more rigid.

rockitman · Feb 4, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I know Christian had those issues with his Adona, for whatever reason I've had no similar issues with my Adona. I did see his massive (and not spendy) Herzan support table he acquired and assume it would make it things even better. so lots to think about in terms of choices. this stuff is rarely plug and play.

I'm pretty sure my adona gxt stand was a bit taller than yours. The weight of the ts140 and my TT setup is around 350lbs on that stand. I think that is the reason I had a sway issue that adversely affected the normal function of the ts140.

stehno · Feb 5, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
This stand looks pretty and living-room friendly but this stand does not look very sturdy to me. I would think having the supports at the corners would make the whole thing more rigid.

Assuming we're talking tight metal-to-metal joinery where the wood is just a facade, this design's outer frame appears quite solid at least from an outside frame perspective. The fact that the vertical posts are in toward the center and not at the 4 corners has the potential to improve performance since these vertical posts are under greater stress than if they were at the 4 corners.

A guitar string is a good example. I'd like to say the more tight or stressed the guitar string is the faster it seems that mechanical energy transfers - but I can't say that and remain accurate. What I can say is that the more taut or stressed the string is the more efficient the mechanical energy transfer becomes along with perhaps greater volumes of mechanical energy transferring. When there is no tension there is little or no transfer of energy. The same goes for any hard or rigid material that could be used as a mechanical conduit.

So if anything, and assuming the Finite Element's frame is rigidly constructed / fastened / joined, the toward-center vertical posts with unbalanced weight-distribution components placed on the shelves should help generate a bit more performance. In fact, the more unbalanced the component's weight distribution is on the shelf, the greater the stress, and hence hopefully the better the performance. So barring all other variable performance influences including methodologies, these posts' positions should help not hinder performance while potentially only slightly compromising the load capacity of a given shelf.

stehno · Feb 5, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
passive shelves/passive racks have no more effect on component borne vibrations than active systems. active systems sense any type of resonance and dampen it. passive systems must be tuned to dampen particular resonances ahead of time. they are not agile to adjust to just any resonance. and active is effective over a very wide range of weight variance. whereas passive is essentially a spring and tuned to a more limited weight range.

so I'm not sure what exactly you are asking.

Several things, Mike.

1. How do you know that all passive racking systems have no more effect on component borne vibrations than active systems? What exactly are you implying?

2. What is damping anyway? (not dampen which is to make something wet) There are numerous takes on damping and its significance with mechanical energy but there's only one understanding I cling to. Any given component will have areas that are more susceptible (more easily excitable) to vibrations than others, e.g. a tube, a flimsy or loosely anchored top plate, a diode, etc. or maybe a pcb board within. In fact, some of these weak spots are so vulnerable to mechanical vibrations that they in turn will start vibrating sympathetically with the vibrations they've already captured.

The way I look at damping or try to use damping to my advantage is to realize that vibrational energy first and foremost wants to travel seeking to release its full energy in a given vulnerable spot and I don't want it to. It's gonna release its energy somewhere but since I don't want it releasing its energy here, I damp that area with the hope and intent the mechanical energy will continue its travel and hopefully find an exit path before it can settle at the next vulnerable spot within the component and release its energy there.

spiritofmusic · Feb 5, 2017

Who's going to be the first brave individual to put all their gear on active shelves, and maybe go even further, and actively isolate their uber heavy spkrs?

morricab · Feb 5, 2017

If you guys are going use "lab grade" stuff sold to you by boutique dealers then why don't you go to the sources and by from lab suppliers of this stuff??

Here's a few names for you:
Meles Griot
Newport
Thor Labs

A lab grade optical breadboard has far better properties than any of the materials used by boutique rack makers in terms of floor and airborne vibrations. The honeycomb structure is far better than granite. Air or active suspension is of course SOTA.

It's not cheap but cheaper by far than HRS and I know from using large optical tables with sensitive optics that it works.

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