Harmonic Resolution Systems VXR Stand

PeterA · Feb 6, 2017

thekong said:
My guess is that high quality turntables don't generate that much vibration on their own. If they do, I think it would show up at the screen of the Herzan.

I've seen Rockitman's Herzan react to hand claps. Doesn't the Herzan screen indicate that the servos are moving, meaning the Herzan unit itself or the platform on which it is placed is moving relative to the Herzan's top plate? If this is the case, how does one know if the lights on the screen are active because of vibrations that are air borne, floor borne or generated from the TT itself?

And if the Herzan screen indicates that the servos are reacting to vibrations from the TT, how can the Herzan effect/attenuate the vibrations before they have already effected the platter or tonearm/cartridge, assuming the vibrations originate within the TT?

spiritofmusic · Feb 6, 2017

Peter, does that mean you have some sympathy for the point of view I'm putting fwds?
That maybe active isolation isn't best suited to gear w marked internally created noise ie tts w spinning platters?

PeterA · Feb 6, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Peter, does that mean you have some sympathy for the point of view I'm putting fwds?
That maybe active isolation isn't best suited to gear w marked internally created noise ie tts w spinning platters?

I have been curious about this ever since someone suggested that active isolation may create feedback issues with suspended turntables. That was about four years ago. I have always been skeptical about the claim that these active devices reduce vibrations created by the turntable itself. No advocate of active isolation has explained to me how vibrations leaving a motor and traveling to the arm/cartridge or platter can be attenuated by the isolation platform before they reach these targets. Same with airborne vibrations hitting the tonearm or platter. I have asked these questions many times.

I do think that active isolation platforms might be more effective than passive/air isolation at attenuating ground borne vibrations, all things being equal. But, feedback with certain suspended turntable designs remains a concern. I happen to think that a successful turntable design must address internal vibrations, and airborne vibrations, through proper design regardless of the platform on which it is placed, and that supplemental isolation platforms are best at isolating the turntable from floor borne vibrations. There was some discussion on Audiogon a while back about direct drive turntables in a large plinth versus a nude skeleton. Air born and internally created vibrations are handled very differently in these two cases, and I wonder if an active platform would change any of this.

I would be very interested in testing an active platform under a turntable which is isolated in a separate room from the speakers and which is on a floating floor. That way there would be no air borne or floor borne vibrations effecting the turntable and the effectiveness of something like a Herzan at attenuating only component based vibrations, could be evaluated. One could simply listen to the turntable with and without the Herzan while sitting in the other room where the speakers are located.

spiritofmusic · Feb 6, 2017

Peter, I think we're alone in raising reasonable doubts about the TOTAL superiority of active isoln by it's proponents
I would love to put fwd Symposium Peter's cogent arguments against active as the best and only best solution
I'll ask his permission (it was a private email)
I know all the active isolation engineers absolutely contend their tech is NOT for suspended tts

Ron Resnick · Feb 6, 2017

A.J. Conti told me off the top of his head one time that he thinks that putting his turntables on top of a Herzan might improve sound quality "maybe 5%." Off the top of his head he thought it would be beneficial, not problem-inducing, for his suspended turntables.

But Basis Audio suspension designs don't use springs or rubber rings. They use (seemingly somewhat slow-reacting -- but this is just my impression) fluid damping cartridges in pods at the corners of the turntables. If my impression is correct then maybe these non-springy suspensions would allow the Herzan to act quickly and to not "fight" with the corrections of the Herzan like a suspension with springs might do.

rockitman · Feb 6, 2017

microstrip said:
We can not be sure. Belt driven suspended turntables only suspend the chassis and platter, not the motor. Any minimal relative movement will affect drive and probably sound. Putting the whole system in an isolated platform looks desirable, unless the correction pulses of the active table excite the turntable suspension. IMHO we must try or ask to know, it is not possible to guess.

One of the reasons I decided to postpone any analog upgrade is that I considered that until I had listened to the Forsell placed on an active suspension table. such as the Herzan, it would be premature to think about any other analog component!

Well said. My air suspended techDas sounds better with active isolation than w/o. There goes that theory !

thekong · Feb 7, 2017

Hi Christian, may I ask whether your Herzan reacts (as indicated by the moving line on the screen) :

1. When the turntable’s motor is off and no music from the speaker,
2. When the turntable’s motor is on, platter turning, but no music from the speakers, and
3. When the turntable’s motor is on, platter turning, and music playing through the speakers ?

Thanks,

Michael

bonzo75 · Feb 7, 2017

Isn't Goldmund Studio a suspended TT? Marty uses it on a vibraplane and sounds great.

spiritofmusic · Feb 7, 2017

Vibraplane is a passive isolation shelf I believe, like the Spiers air shelf that Purite uses

PeterA · Feb 7, 2017

thekong said:
Hi Christian, may I ask whether your Herzan reacts (as indicated by the moving line on the screen) :

1. When the turntable’s motor is off and no music from the speaker,
2. When the turntable’s motor is on, platter turning, but no music from the speakers, and
3. When the turntable’s motor is on, platter turning, and music playing through the speakers ?

Thanks,

Michael

Interesting questions. It would be fascinating to compare Christian's answers to these to MikeL's answers perhaps revealing some differences between the unsuspended DD NVS and the suspended BD TechDAS.

caesar · Feb 7, 2017

Steve Williams said:
Indeed removing the Stillpoints and going all CMS was a huge positive to my system.

Hey Steve,
What made you put them in, in the first place?

In my case, I was lucky to be warned to be aware of the fake detail in the first place, for certain gear...

yet it's simple enough to try (except for speakers), and out of a dozen components or so I was curious to try it with, it seems to have definitely worked with an old CD player...

caesar · Feb 7, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
CMS Maxxum looks very impressive!

View attachment 30899

View attachment 30900

I know it's about aesthetic taste, but the thickness of those legs takes away from the beautiful minimalism of the soulution gear. What a shame to ruin that look! Kind of like a super model going out with a fat, disgusting old football player. The guy really has to figure out to slim down those legs...

spiritofmusic · Feb 7, 2017

Symposium Acoustics a great alternative to these uber priced monoliths
A 3 tier Isis rack and pr of single tier AmpStands, w isolation at each tier, constrained layer shelves incl uber Quantum Signature up top for tt, in $12k price range
Much svelter in appearance than these "pumped up on steroids"-type racks, but chock full of interesting tech and materials solutions

PeterA · Feb 7, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Isn't Goldmund Studio a suspended TT? Marty uses it on a vibraplane and sounds great.

I use a Vibraplane under my suspended SME. And there is a guy on Audiogon who used one under his suspended Basis for years. I'm not surprised that a suspended TT can benefit from some of these isolation platforms, but it may depend on specific designs and implementation.

rockitman · Feb 7, 2017

thekong said:
Hi Christian, may I ask whether your Herzan reacts (as indicated by the moving line on the screen) :

1. When the turntable’s motor is off and no music from the speaker,
The best way to tell is turn off active isolation. When the motor is off, no music, the lines are flatline unless you tap your foot, clap your hands, ect. When active is on, it will react very quickly when there is incoming vibration....if no music, no TT motor spinning, its flat line.

2. When the turntable’s motor is on, platter turning, but no music from the speakers, and
Yes, when the platter is spinning, the Herzan is providing equal and opposite force. The lines will not be flat line and you will see the vibration being sensed by the Herzan and it is doing its thing, silently.

3. When the turntable’s motor is on, platter turning, and music playing through the speakers ?
Same answer as 2.

Thanks,

Michael

Answers bolded.

thekong · Feb 7, 2017

Christian, thank you for your reply!

Your room must be very well insulated that no (or minimal) vibration reaches the Herzan when no music is playing!

rockitman · Feb 7, 2017

thekong said:
Christian, thank you for your reply!

Your room must be very well insulated that no (or minimal) vibration reaches the Herzan when no music is playing!

I'm in my basement. Poured concrete floor....even then a light foot fall near the rack will excite the vibration lines when active is off. When active is on, you can see the lines move for a fraction of a second if you stomp the floor or clap very loudly near the unit....then the lines immediately stabilize. It's important to note that the graphical line(s) display is an indication of incoming vibration that it senses. They are not calibrated or can give any meaningful values or measurements of vibration.

spiritofmusic · Feb 9, 2017

Any thoughts from the pro Herzan guys of putting a Herzan on the floor, and one's pre existing rack on it?
Certainly it could support tens of kilos of accumulated weight, and if these things are so comprehensive in function, it should be able to isolate multiple combinations of components

thekong · Feb 15, 2017

Hi Christian, can you please let me know the link of the video showing the Herzan reacts to your hand clapping?

I remember seeing it, but can't find it anymore.

Thanks in advance!

Michael

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