High end Munich 2017

morricab · May 23, 2017

Al M. said:
On the other hand, we also have morricab' perspective, with which this whole debate actually started (emphasis mine):

While I don't think High end audio is on death's door by any stretch of the imagination I do think it is catering more and more exclusively to the very rich (the 1%ers). This is evident in companies where their prices have soared from past years from being upper middle class to very much upper class.

It is also evident for companies literally coming out of nowhere with luxury pricing, especially when you know something about the pricing of components that go into these products and you see a simple Di'Appolito design with two Seas Revelator midbasses and a $100 tweeter going for 45K euro (Kroma in the Zanden room for example). This is the first time I have seen this company with their insane pricing. I remember when Spectral was one of the most expensive SS amp brands on the market and now they are eclipsed by many other products...most of which are probably inferior.

I don't think pricing should only be based on name, like a Louis Vuitton bag or a Patek Philippe watch. However, currently the pricing is more from a situation where there are less people with the money or inclination for this luxury (the days of selling Thousands of Acoustats is over it seems) and so more companies are chasing fewer people and those people, increasingly, are rich. This means you will only sell 100 pieces in a year whether it is 10K or 50K, so you might as well sell it for 50K. It is no longer a middle class hobby. It once was. Average people aspired to have a nice hifi system and they bought what they could and some even went "exotic" and bought separates or electrostatic speakers, which Btw. absolutely astound non-audiophiles even today. I shocked many more people with my big electrostats than with any other speakers. They were reasonably priced at that time and so Acoustat, Quad and others sold 10s of thousands of them. Now we have really only Martin Logan, Sound Lab and chinese Quad (they sucked at the show btw...makes me sad). Some say that the law suit from Magnepan killed Apogee...I don't think so, I think they simply sold their speakers actually too cheap compared to what it took to make them (they were a bitch to build and they did it all custom inhouse). They simply didn't have enough cash flow despite selling a ton of them...sure made a lot of middle income audiophiles happy though...

The companies are doing it for survival because of the relatively low volume that has become hifi sales. If Schiit can survive with its ultra low pricing I will be surprised.

So, I don't have a problem with the ultra pricing but I do see people afraid of being taken seriously at the other end and raising their prices to "compete". I know one amp maker who told me this point blank because it was really hurting his sales and he makes REALLY good sounding gear...that was fairly priced...now less so. He is not the first to tell me this. IF that trend continues, there will be very little fairly priced gear that can be rightly called high end. Even my own speaker brand, Odeon, unveiled a 124K euro speaker when their previous top-of-the-range was less than 40K. I guess they felt the need to be taken "seriously" despite being in business for more than 30 years.

morricab · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
I think that's true to a degree, especially if you're a manufacturer that's a niche within a niche and your products come with caveats of little compromise in regard to lifestyle choices (i.e. size, heat, power consumption, space, etc). But there were literally a thousand other brands there looking to attract the mass-market consumer with something a little different, and even high-end brands are making one-box solutions (Constellation, Naim, Weiss, Lyravox, Devialet, etc) to appeal to a consumer that's wanting an alternative to Bose and Klipsch et al.

Munich did change my perspective, and for the better. That I generally tend toward an optimistic disposition is possibly a form of bias that's ignorant of several realities, but as a guy who believes cassette will make a comeback any day now, I offer these thoughts for whatever they're worth.

853guy

I would love for cassette to come back...some of my best teenage memories are revolving around cassettes, cars...and girls

853guy · May 23, 2017

Al M. said:
Thanks again for offering a perspective of the Munich show that, judging from your narratives, seems closer to the truth, and which gives hope for the future of high-end audio.

Hi Al,

Pleasure.

Here's a distributor's blog with their products represented. Have a look through the photos at the bottom of the page, and especially the people in attendance. Be curious as to your thoughts.

https://www.sarte-audio.com/high-end-munich-2017

853guy

KeithR · May 23, 2017

Al M. said:
I don't like the TT look. I hate it. High end bling. Audiophile jewelry. Probably associated insane pricing. Ridiculous. That's what destroys this industry. See also Davey's wise post earlier in this thread.

Agree - kinda like that Triangle stuff.

The speakers are worse - I mean those are awful looking. And cost a fortune to look that bad.

Zero000 · May 23, 2017

Aries Cerat

They make some pretty special gear IMHO. Only the newish Symphonia speaker, which attempts to mate a ribbon tweeter with a horn mid range and bass unit, was an epic fail.

Why? The room was tiny. This was a real issue as you couldn't sit far away enough for the units to give the auditory illusion of working together.

All I could easily hear was a lagging, slow bass, a mid range that was disjoint and too forward, and a ribbon treble unit that didn't sound as though it had broken in, or just didn't like the driving electronics. I suspect the former, but could be wrong.

The ribbon did display a hit of Apogee in its nature, as you would expect. And having used fresh ribbons on a number of occasions, you have to get a good few hours on them before they don't sound like this one appeared to (in other words bad/****). The other killer with ribbons is you had better make sure they like the hardware, as they will ruthlessly dislike some amps and sources. Smear and excess sibilance are sure signs of an issue but more so in terms of an unbroken in ribbon than driving electronics. Though both can do it.

Despite that the quirky look of the speaker is quite cool. Well I think so...

No video. One of the darkest rooms if not the darkest. The only reason you can see anything here is the invention of flash

The speaker costs a mere £75K in this basic finish but you can top £100K. Spend £1K or less on a top 2nd hand mini monitor and do better. Really. Or put these in a much bigger room and listen again after 200 hours of use.

Al M. · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
Hi Al,

Pleasure.

Here's a distributor's blog with their products represented. Have a look through the photos at the bottom of the page, and especially the people in attendance. Be curious as to your thoughts.

https://www.sarte-audio.com/high-end-munich-2017

853guy

Very nice. Makes me feel soooo much better.

Thanks!

Al M. · May 23, 2017

KeithR said:
Agree - kinda like that Triangle stuff.

Hehe. I know what you mean, the turntable.

Funny thing, I am actually interested in the Triangle Art Ra power conditioner -- seriously. It does look bling (well, chrome, not gold), but it's actually relatively cheap at 'just' 3 grand and it is excellent. A few years ago I heard in in a friend's system, in a shootout against a much more expensive Nordost conditioning system, and it blew me away. It has been on my radar ever since. This week I'll visit him again, this time for a shoot-out of the Triangle Art Ra vs. the Shunyata Denali. Should be fun.

Al M. · May 23, 2017

morricab said:
While I don't think High end audio is on death's door by any stretch of the imagination I do think it is catering more and more exclusively to the very rich (the 1%ers). This is evident in companies where their prices have soared from past years from being upper middle class to very much upper class.

It is also evident for companies literally coming out of nowhere with luxury pricing, especially when you know something about the pricing of components that go into these products and you see a simple Di'Appolito design with two Seas Revelator midbasses and a $100 tweeter going for 45K euro (Kroma in the Zanden room for example). This is the first time I have seen this company with their insane pricing. I remember when Spectral was one of the most expensive SS amp brands on the market and now they are eclipsed by many other products...most of which are probably inferior.

I don't think pricing should only be based on name, like a Louis Vuitton bag or a Patek Philippe watch. However, currently the pricing is more from a situation where there are less people with the money or inclination for this luxury (the days of selling Thousands of Acoustats is over it seems) and so more companies are chasing fewer people and those people, increasingly, are rich. This means you will only sell 100 pieces in a year whether it is 10K or 50K, so you might as well sell it for 50K. It is no longer a middle class hobby. It once was. Average people aspired to have a nice hifi system and they bought what they could and some even went "exotic" and bought separates or electrostatic speakers, which Btw. absolutely astound non-audiophiles even today. I shocked many more people with my big electrostats than with any other speakers. They were reasonably priced at that time and so Acoustat, Quad and others sold 10s of thousands of them. Now we have really only Martin Logan, Sound Lab and chinese Quad (they sucked at the show btw...makes me sad). Some say that the law suit from Magnepan killed Apogee...I don't think so, I think they simply sold their speakers actually too cheap compared to what it took to make them (they were a bitch to build and they did it all custom inhouse). They simply didn't have enough cash flow despite selling a ton of them...sure made a lot of middle income audiophiles happy though...

The companies are doing it for survival because of the relatively low volume that has become hifi sales. If Schiit can survive with its ultra low pricing I will be surprised.

So, I don't have a problem with the ultra pricing but I do see people afraid of being taken seriously at the other end and raising their prices to "compete". I know one amp maker who told me this point blank because it was really hurting his sales and he makes REALLY good sounding gear...that was fairly priced...now less so. He is not the first to tell me this. IF that trend continues, there will be very little fairly priced gear that can be rightly called high end. Even my own speaker brand, Odeon, unveiled a 124K euro speaker when their previous top-of-the-range was less than 40K. I guess they felt the need to be taken "seriously" despite being in business for more than 30 years.

Not much to disagree with your perspective either, the existence of affordable stuff notwithstanding.

You said:

"However, currently the pricing is more from a situation where there are less people with the money or inclination for this luxury (the days of selling Thousands of Acoustats is over it seems) and so more companies are chasing fewer people and those people, increasingly, are rich. This means you will only sell 100 pieces in a year whether it is 10K or 50K, so you might as well sell it for 50K. It is no longer a middle class hobby. It once was."

That seems to be precisely Jason Stoddard's perspective (Schiit Audio), see also my quote in post # 185.

As for Schiit surviving, I am not worried at all. Their business model seems solid, and they have done great over seven years' time now, literally starting from a garage. At current sales of 65,000 units of gear per year they are now quite a company. Granted, their best selling units are only $100 each, but with the other products thrown in their total sales must be easily in the 8 figure range now.

the sound of Tao · May 23, 2017

morricab said:
While I don't think High end audio is on death's door by any stretch of the imagination I do think it is catering more and more exclusively to the very rich (the 1%ers). This is evident in companies where their prices have soared from past years from being upper middle class to very much upper class.

It is also evident for companies literally coming out of nowhere with luxury pricing, especially when you know something about the pricing of components that go into these products and you see a simple Di'Appolito design with two Seas Revelator midbasses and a $100 tweeter going for 45K euro (Kroma in the Zanden room for example). This is the first time I have seen this company with their insane pricing. I remember when Spectral was one of the most expensive SS amp brands on the market and now they are eclipsed by many other products...most of which are probably inferior.

I don't think pricing should only be based on name, like a Louis Vuitton bag or a Patek Philippe watch. However, currently the pricing is more from a situation where there are less people with the money or inclination for this luxury (the days of selling Thousands of Acoustats is over it seems) and so more companies are chasing fewer people and those people, increasingly, are rich. This means you will only sell 100 pieces in a year whether it is 10K or 50K, so you might as well sell it for 50K. It is no longer a middle class hobby. It once was. Average people aspired to have a nice hifi system and they bought what they could and some even went "exotic" and bought separates or electrostatic speakers, which Btw. absolutely astound non-audiophiles even today. I shocked many more people with my big electrostats than with any other speakers. They were reasonably priced at that time and so Acoustat, Quad and others sold 10s of thousands of them. Now we have really only Martin Logan, Sound Lab and chinese Quad (they sucked at the show btw...makes me sad). Some say that the law suit from Magnepan killed Apogee...I don't think so, I think they simply sold their speakers actually too cheap compared to what it took to make them (they were a bitch to build and they did it all custom inhouse). They simply didn't have enough cash flow despite selling a ton of them...sure made a lot of middle income audiophiles happy though...

The companies are doing it for survival because of the relatively low volume that has become hifi sales. If Schiit can survive with its ultra low pricing I will be surprised.

So, I don't have a problem with the ultra pricing but I do see people afraid of being taken seriously at the other end and raising their prices to "compete". I know one amp maker who told me this point blank because it was really hurting his sales and he makes REALLY good sounding gear...that was fairly priced...now less so. He is not the first to tell me this. IF that trend continues, there will be very little fairly priced gear that can be rightly called high end. Even my own speaker brand, Odeon, unveiled a 124K euro speaker when their previous top-of-the-range was less than 40K. I guess they felt the need to be taken "seriously" despite being in business for more than 30 years.

Beautifully observed commentary Brad... this seems an early scary indication for the future. Where can this kind of pattern lead us if it continues into a tipping point of social breakdown. A large lower class that just copes (or maybe doesn't), the decimation of the middle class and an increasingly smaller number of insanely wealthy people (with great sound systems) who will dominate the rest because they own much of the land and the food production and all the really good hifi setups... sounds pretty much like a return to the pre industrial ages, a new dark age for all but the few.

So if people get angry about a growing trend to marketing towards an obscenely rich handful its maybe because of a surfacing realisation of the middle class that we are going to have less discretionary dollars as we cope with the future housing affordability. We might start to feel threatened by the scenario where there might be less and less equity for the masses in the future.

Where does this new super prosperity for the few come from? The vulnerable and poor will be first to be consumed by the future and the challenges of an increasingly less sustainable world but eventually it will work its way up to feed on the middle class pulling them down into the struggle of basic survival and food and shelter. Dim and bleak, this indulgent age will most likely end in the inevitable great cycle return, chaos to order to chaos. We all better get to next year's Munich show to take another look at the future while we still can afford a little part of it.

I do celebrate the real hi end which is about our technological aspirations towards sound that increases the art of technology and music appreciation and so thankfully it isn't really about the price tags for most of us still. That would be in an age that had lost hope and perspective. I take comfort in that we mostly all still write first about how good something sounds and then perhaps a little gasp at price tags of some other things later.

Exlibris · May 23, 2017

Were Stein playing various speakers? From one of the photos it looks like they brought a few pairs .

DaveyF · May 24, 2017

I suspect a lot of us fail to understand the perception of the typical European or American high end manufacturer. Most of these fellows are being told by their distributor's or dealers as to how to price their wares. These same guys are hearing from their far east dealers a different story than they are hearing from their western dealers or distributors, or their middle east distributors/dealers ( assuming they have any). What is the poor manufacturer to do....on the one hand his far east distributor ( and/or his middle east distributor/dealer) is telling him we need to price the wares to the sky, otherwise it will be seen as less worthy, while his western distributor is claiming that he has a ceiling which he would rather not go beyond! Yet, the allure of the BIG profit is too much, and the fear that the far east(and/or middle east) dealer/distributor will desert him if he doesn't comply outweighs the western distributor's concerns.

Interestingly enough, I have heard this exact scenario repeated to me by more than one well known ( and not so well known) high end audio manufacturer- and on several different occasions.

Nowadays, when I talk to manufacturer's...and particularly high end manufacturer's, one of my first questions is where they perceive their customer base lies....the answer is usually highly instructive. More of us might want to do this very same thing. IMHO.

bonzo75 · May 24, 2017

The industry is being held up by Asia. The audio industry in UK and US etc has collapsed from the 90s. So obviously tehy have to cater to Asia. Rumors are that one of the big horn companies, you can guess which, sold 4 horns at the show, retail is like 400k. Another sold at least one at 200+ retail.

Difference between cars and watches and audio jewelry is that no one buys an expensive watch and says this gives the most accurate time, and no one buys an expensive two seater sports car and says I bought it for mileage or to transport my 3 kids to school. Audio is a wide hobby with people having different reasons to be in this hobby, and their purchase decisions being motivated by various factors. Unfortunately, unlike with watches and cars, many will buy expensive and justify it to have better sound than the lesser priced one, because, of course, it is priced more. And that's where the break comes. It is ok to pay the price you want as long as you know why you have paid it.

Given the information access due to the internet, SQ and price reports are getting distributed more and more easily, and given the fewer units being sold as compared to the 90s, if I was a manufacturer, I would try to bring out high priced units, sell at low volumes but high margins, and position it to more than sound alone. Service, looks, ability to fit in spaces, etc...

As a customer, if I had more money, I would do what Gian's friend Pietro did...get someone like Yamamura to sit at my place for two months and customize, or get multiple peole to sit at home and customize.

morricab · May 24, 2017

User211 said:
Aries Cerat

They make some pretty special gear IMHO. Only the newish Symphonia speaker, which attempts to mate a ribbon tweeter with a horn mid range and bass unit, was an epic fail.

Why? The room was tiny. This was a real issue as you couldn't sit far away enough for the units to give the auditory illusion of working together.

All I could easily hear was a lagging, slow bass, a mid range that was disjoint and too forward, and a ribbon treble unit that didn't sound as though it had broken in, or just didn't like the driving electronics. I suspect the former, but could be wrong.

The ribbon did display a hit of Apogee in its nature, as you would expect. And having used fresh ribbons on a number of occasions, you have to get a good few hours on them before they don't sound like this one appeared to (in other words bad/****). The other killer with ribbons is you had better make sure they like the hardware, as they will ruthlessly dislike some amps and sources. Smear and excess sibilance are sure signs of an issue but more so in terms of an unbroken in ribbon than driving electronics. Though both can do it.

Despite that the quirky look of the speaker is quite cool. Well I think so...

No video. One of the darkest rooms if not the darkest. The only reason you can see anything here is the invention of flash

The speaker costs a mere £75K in this basic finish but you can top £100K. Spend £1K or less on a top 2nd hand mini monitor and do better. Really. Or put these in a much bigger room and listen again after 200 hours of use.

Theoretical question: Is a speaker an Epic fail because it is in a too small room? This is essentially what you have said in your first two sentences. Realizing this is it fair to judge the speaker if you take issue with the sound, knowing (in your mind at least) that you are too close for such a speaker design? I took a count of opionions expressed on this thread about the AC room and it came down 7:3 in favor of the sound in this room. So, while you make some valid points, you are in the minority with your summation of the sound even if some of your description of some of the parts is accurate. Many people heard something there you did not.

spiritofmusic · May 24, 2017

My q is, and it's the same in all situations where gear challenged to sound optimal, is it a case of bad publicity is good publicity?
Ie is it better for Stavros to get out there even if the final effect is poorer than he would wish for?
Does raising the profile make sense whatever the practical outcome in the room?
Does he make more sales long term?
As such, is it worth shelling out €20-30k on 4 days of publicity even if reactions on the spot are mixed?
Maybe it does for the big boys like Cessaro who can sell multiple prs there and then despite a sound most of us find decidedly lacking for €350k
But Aries Cerat are not Cessaro

bonzo75 · May 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
My q is, and it's the same in all situations where gear challenged to sound optimal, is it a case of bad publicity is good publicity?
Ie is it better for Stavros to get out there even if the final effect is poorer than he would wish for?
Does raising the profile make sense whatever the practical outcome in the room?
Does he make more sales long term?
As such, is it worth shelling out €20-30k on 4 days of publicity even if reactions on the spot are mixed?
Maybe it does for the big boys like Cessaro who can sell multiple prs there and then despite a sound most of us find decidedly lacking for €350k
But Aries Cerat are not Cessaro

I think Cesarro sold at least 4 there and sure those who heard it did not hear it in optimal settings, so it doesn't matter, because people who buy it don't always do so because it sounds good there.

morricab · May 24, 2017

bonzo75 said:
I think Cesarro sold at least 4 there and sure those who heard it did not hear it in optimal settings, so it doesn't matter, because people who buy it don't always do so because it sounds good there.

Often there is "show pricing" deals that can sweeten the pot for someone leaning towards a system like that. Seriously though I haven't heard a Cessaro setup sound really good yet. It seems all the right parts are there but somehow the end result is less than the sum of those parts. I thought the AG trio system showed huge potential this time around.

morricab · May 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
My q is, and it's the same in all situations where gear challenged to sound optimal, is it a case of bad publicity is good publicity?
Ie is it better for Stavros to get out there even if the final effect is poorer than he would wish for?
Does raising the profile make sense whatever the practical outcome in the room?
Does he make more sales long term?
As such, is it worth shelling out €20-30k on 4 days of publicity even if reactions on the spot are mixed?
Maybe it does for the big boys like Cessaro who can sell multiple prs there and then despite a sound most of us find decidedly lacking for €350k
But Aries Cerat are not Cessaro

it was mostly good publicity actually.

Rodney Gold · May 24, 2017

You cannot really take sound you hear at a show seriously...

bonzo75 · May 24, 2017

morricab said:
Often there is "show pricing" deals that can sweeten the pot for someone leaning towards a system like that. Seriously though I haven't heard a Cessaro setup sound really good yet. It seems all the right parts are there but somehow the end result is less than the sum of those parts. I thought the AG trio system showed huge potential this time around.

Well I have heard the trios properly a few times and like them. I am sure they would have sold some as well

jackelsson · May 24, 2017

User211 said:
Aries Cerat

They make some pretty special gear IMHO. Only the newish Symphonia speaker, which attempts to mate a ribbon tweeter with a horn mid range and bass unit, was an epic fail.

Why? The room was tiny. This was a real issue as you couldn't sit far away enough for the units to give the auditory illusion of working together.

All I could easily hear was a lagging, slow bass, a mid range that was disjoint and too forward, and a ribbon treble unit that didn't sound as though it had broken in, or just didn't like the driving electronics. I suspect the former, but could be wrong.

The ribbon did display a hit of Apogee in its nature, as you would expect. And having used fresh ribbons on a number of occasions, you have to get a good few hours on them before they don't sound like this one appeared to (in other words bad/****). The other killer with ribbons is you had better make sure they like the hardware, as they will ruthlessly dislike some amps and sources. Smear and excess sibilance are sure signs of an issue but more so in terms of an unbroken in ribbon than driving electronics. Though both can do it.

Despite that the quirky look of the speaker is quite cool. Well I think so...

No video. One of the darkest rooms if not the darkest. The only reason you can see anything here is the invention of flash

The speaker costs a mere £75K in this basic finish but you can top £100K. Spend £1K or less on a top 2nd hand mini monitor and do better. Really. Or put these in a much bigger room and listen again after 200 hours of use.

Looking at the favourable remarks here in this thread it seems I really missed out something by completely ignoring the Aries Cerat room. Having said that: am I really the only one here who finds these loudspeakers quite a bit aesthetically challenging?

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