High end Munich 2017

bonzo75 · May 23, 2017

A great flickr on all pics https://www.flickr.com/photos/116216924@N04/sets/72157684143984955

Al M. · May 23, 2017

User211 said:
I'm smiling

Wilson / Nagra.

I'm surprised I like these in red, but I do.

One thing you will probably never hear at a show is what a large Wilson can do with ample Watts and music with some serious bass content. They can play seriously loud and hold it together. If you ever get the chance, try it.

If you've never respected Wilson before, you will learn some respect pretty quick You needn't like them, but you WILL respect them (wink).

I respect Wilson. But then I don't exactly consider them audiophile jewelry either.

853guy · May 23, 2017

Al M. said:
I don't like the TT look. I hate it. High end bling. Audiophile jewelry. Probably associated insane pricing. Ridiculous. That's what destroys this industry. See also Davey's wise post earlier in this thread.

Hello Al,

Insane prices are simply the inevitable result of a market that produces lots of stuff in the middle, with stuff at both ends of the spectrum extremes. Same for cars and watches and houses and wine and most consumer goods. It’s an evenly distributed bell curve and yes, the long tails do produce components attracting insane pricing, but it’s exactly the same on the other end of the pricing strata. That the stuff in the middle is relatively more expensive than perhaps it once was is indicative of a society in which the average earning wage and standard of living is higher, inflation is at an all time low, and consumer demand is increasing (especially for first-world luxuries, of which I personally, consider hi-fi components to be one). It still doesn’t negate the lower end of the spectrum, just that the lower end often doesn’t receive as much media coverage as it once did. In a niche market, the long tails is what has brought back tubes, and vinyl, and tape - without the long tails, there's no chance of those things existing.

My perspective? Insane pricing isn’t destroying this industry. Bigotry is.

The guys who buy second-hand or online after demoing extensively at a dealer, believing anyone who pays full retail to be a sucker. Guys who buy based on specs believing those who use their ears to be audiofools. Guys who look at price tags and decide it must be overpriced - without ever hearing it - and think anyone who spends “that kind of money” is an idiot. Guys who dismiss analogue devotees as fanatics. Guys who sit at home on their laptop and deride anyone who doesn’t think like them and spend money like them and assemble a system like them because, of course, their worldview is the only one that could possibly be “right”.

Sorry, Al. I see absolutely no reason to judge something based on its pricing alone and especially, its looks, nor another individual because their value system is different than yours.

Be well,

853guy

Zero000 · May 23, 2017

Von Schweikert / VAC

Big system. Big money. Good sound with scale generally when I was in there, probably better than this video gives clues about TBH.

No wow moments, just good moments. Suspect I could be more impressed with the right material being played.

https://jmvlka-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y4m_zq_XpKi1RRlQJZQLx-F4kGfs-xA9DRMNCU-T_KGMu6eYm1o5Ztnd8BVqCeqHW-YFssaSZ0LJgczdmbMg9xZx8NYBWJ1xlJo-Xg9AGo3n3_0BTR1gk848_S69abVrSBSo2VtLRhTCPuc4HaJozm KTVPFeFGr5H6sgkT1VHTrhye0TzjYhlKVH6rTiHVvPyTBS5upS xU8huL88a99C1kT0g?width=1598&height=900&cropmode=none

Al M. · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
Hello Al,

Insane prices are simply the inevitable result of a market that produces lots of stuff in the middle, with stuff at both ends of the spectrum extremes. Same for cars and watches and houses and wine and most consumer goods. It’s an evenly distributed bell curve and yes, the long tails do produce components attracting insane pricing, but it’s exactly the same on the other end of the pricing strata. That the stuff in the middle is relatively more expensive than perhaps it once was is indicative of a society in which the average earning wage and standard of living is higher, inflation is at an all time low, and consumer demand is increasing (especially for first-world luxuries, of which I personally, consider hi-fi components to be one). It still doesn’t negate the lower end of the spectrum, just that the lower end often doesn’t receive as much media coverage as it once did.

My perspective? Insane pricing isn’t destroying this industry. Bigotry is.

The guys who buy second-hand or online after demoing extensively at a dealer, believing anyone who pays full retail to be a sucker. Guys who buy based on specs believing those who use their ears to be audiofools. Guys who look at price tags and decide it must be overpriced - without ever hearing it - and think anyone who spends “that kind of money” is an idiot. Guys who look dismiss analogue devotees as fanatics. Guys who sit at home on their laptop and deride anyone who doesn’t think like them and spend money like them and assemble a system like them because, of course, their worldview is the only one that could possibly be “right”.

Sorry, Al. I see absolutely no reason to judge something based on its pricing alone and especially, its looks, nor another individual because their value system is different than yours.

Be well,

853guy

853guy,

I understand your points. However, the bolded part in your post points to a large part of the problem: the current image problem of the high end industry.

Here is how Jason Stoddard from Schiit puts it well:

Traditional two-channel audio has the “Buick disease.” It’s moribund, almost literally. Over 70, you lose 10% of your customers a year. Over 60, 5%. That’s basic actuarial table stuff. And you can’t make up for the loss by increasing your product costs forever. Eventually, the last 200 people who think a $120,000 DAC is a good idea will die off, and you’re done.

(From the book: Schiit Happened)

Yes, insane pricing does destroy this industry.

There hardly was any audiophile jewelry 25 years ago. It's a recent disease.

Zero000 · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
Hello Al,

Insane prices are simply the inevitable...
853guy

Good post 853 - and good to meet you in the Silbatone room.

Only by the evidence and size of the show, not much is destroying the industry. That of which you speak is just human nature more than anything else I think.

853guy · May 23, 2017

Al M. said:
853guy,

I understand your points. However, the bolded part in your post points to a large part of the problem: the current image problem of the high end industry.

Here is how Jason Stoddard from Schiit puts it well:

Traditional two-channel audio has the “Buick disease.” It’s moribund, almost literally. Over 70, you lose 10% of your customers a year. Over 60, 5%. That’s basic actuarial table stuff. And you can’t make up for the loss by increasing your product costs forever. Eventually, the last 200 people who think a $120,000 DAC is a good idea will die off, and you’re done.

Click to expand...

(From the book: Schiit Happened)

Yes, insane pricing does destroy this industry.

There hardly was any audiophile jewelry 25 years ago. It's a recent disease.

It depends on your perspective, I guess.

I remember going to hear the first ever Philips CD player with the guy pouring honey on top of the disc before it went into the tray. I’m not kidding. We finally had perfect sound forever, he announced to the room, and vinyl was dead.

Except it wasn’t. The long tails resurrected vinyl, and in the last ten years we’ve seen an unbelievable amount of new turntables, arms, carts and vinyl releases all hit the market, flooding into the bell curve at all ends of the spectrum. And had you been at Munich you would have seen every price point represented and accounted for, and what’s more… a consumer base in which men and women, young adults, teens and small children all wandered the packed halls for what’s ostensibly, a “traditional” two-channel show. The average age? If I had to guess, I’d say mid-forties, and that’s being conservative.

Does the high-end industry have an image problem? Not from what I saw at the show. In fact, if Munich’s indicative of anything, it’s that the high-end is alive and well, people of all ages, nationalities and genders feel welcome, and there’s a market and consumer interest for entry-level stuff just as much as there is what you might call “high end bling”.

Don’t believe everything your read on the internet or on Stereophile, Al. Had you been in Munich, you may have, like I did, walk away convinced that the death of the high-end, much like the once-reported “death” of tubes, vinyl and tape, makes for a great headline to turn into a soundbite, but not much else.

Best,

853guy

P.S. Fundamentally, we don't need cars that look cool either, but I'm glad someone takes aesthetics seriously.

853guy · May 23, 2017

User211 said:
Good post 853 - and good to meet you in the Silbatone room.

Only by the evidence and size of the show, not much is destroying the industry. That of which you speak is just human nature more than anything else I think.

Hey!

Yeah, was great. Agree, the high-end is a human pursuit driven by basic human socio-cultural desires. One of the things I love about humanity is our ability to adapt. We do pretty good at that, but often at the expense of those who wish things could return to "how they used to be". But things move on. The high-end definitely has. From what I witnessed in Munich, there are many thousands of others who are willing to move on too.

Be well!

853guy

microstrip · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
Hello Al,
(...) My perspective? Insane pricing isn’t destroying this industry. Bigotry is.
(...)

853guy

Excellent, well-though-out post.

Al M. · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
It depends on your perspective, I guess.

I remember going to hear the first ever Philips CD player with the guy pouring honey on top of the disc before it went into the tray. I’m not kidding. We finally had perfect sound forever, he announced to the room, and vinyl was dead.

Except it wasn’t. The long tails resurrected vinyl, and in the last ten years we’ve seen an unbelievable amount of new turntables, arms, carts and vinyl releases all hit the market, flooding into the bell curve at all ends of the spectrum. And had you been at Munich you would have seen every price point represented and accounted for, and what’s more… a consumer base in which men and women, young adults, teens and small children wandered the packed halls for what’s ostensibly, a “traditional” two-channel show. The average age? If I had to guess, I’d say mid-forties, and that’s being conservative.

Does the high-end industry have an image problem? Not from what I saw at the show. In fact, if Munich’s indicative of anything, it’s that the high-end is alive and well, people of all ages, nationalities and genders feel welcome, and there’s a market and consumer interest for entry-level stuff just as much as there is what you might call “high end bling”.

Don’t believe everything your read on the internet or on Stereophile, Al. Had you been in Munich, you may have, like I did, walk away convinced that the death of the high-end, much like the once-reported “death” of tubes, vinyl and tape, makes for a great headline to turn into a soundbite, but not much else.

Best,

853guy

P.S. Fundamentally, we don't need cars that look cool either, but I'm glad someone takes aesthetics seriously.

Thanks, 853guy, for giving me a better perspective on what actually was going on at Munich. Also young people, and entry-level stuff. If you would believe the threads here and on Audioshark, it was all bling and hyper-expensive stuff. But perhaps that's what you get when people post from a perspective skewed mainly towards the bling and hyper-expensive stuff...

Al M. · May 23, 2017

On the other hand, we also have morricab' perspective, with which this whole debate actually started (emphasis mine):

morricab said:
Hi All,
Just back from 3 days in Munich. I was there for half a day Friday, all day on the crazy packed Saturday and then a couple of hours earlier today to re-hit some highlights and talk to a few people.

I actually saw a lot less of the show overall this year than in the past as I spent more time in rooms I liked and more time talking with people...no problem actually but there were a lot of rooms I just passed on by.

So, for the rooms I did hit my favorites were again pretty much horn but some of the biggest disappointments were also horn.

Odeon's new speaker, while overpriced IMO, was sounding VERY good partnered with New Audio Frontiers and the Aqua Formula DAC. It was well balanced, immediate and coherent. It had a smooth and easy resolution that didn't shout yet gave that dynamic envelope that people crave from horns. Pity it is more than 3x the price of their previous flagship the No. 38. Given that it outperformed everything except perhaps the AC Symphonia, which maxed out is close to the same price, I think it is still "sane" in the insane world of High end pricing.

The Silbatone/Western Electric system was back this year with a vengence! What a system! That speaker is from the time when the best and brightest considered audio a worthy engineering pursuit and it shows. Smooth easy resolution where this speaker was simply loafing no matter what volume level. It had more bass than most of systems they have brought in the past, which gave it a much fuller sound than the last few times out. Wonderful to listen to all day long.

KR Audio with RDAcoustic was also quite good but I think their decision to come with the Voxativ driver instead of the Fostex was a mistake...I felt last year that the Fostex driver worked better in their horn with better punch and bass that offset the slight drop in midrange performance over the Voxativ. People are just getting more and more scared to have anything "affordable" at the show for lack of being taken "seriously".

853guy · May 23, 2017

microstrip said:
Excellent, well-though-out post.

Cheers, Micro!

853guy

Zero000 · May 23, 2017

Gabel / CH Precision - big and small.

Big - very nice, I have to say. Very nice indeed. Righteous sound in here. A bit hard to fault on the material I heard. Sterile maybe. But maybe not. I'd really like to live with this for a good while to check it out properly. I'm sure it could do a lot more than I heard.

Unfortunately, you need the big ones

https://aelqgq-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y4mxf3qBYPRI9BB7XeHXglKD8WgAUjN17uC98hpLvAsd0u8TxQ mrYamArFIqcQQKfg2OUQ6sHf4tyjQPKkCG6N_dm-bv8Ovqs5GkwimCyAaKaIMB4dqkXiLbvMwQuz2Sz6FDm__o0dpC iqI1cNDmPBQmxxWwyzRUo9fOc_uM9br05WwvQoY0XXe8xy8jdM eJHKWRnkoUIi7p1RjES9QVC_CTA?width=1598&height=900&cropmode=none

https://wrsd7w-ch3302.files.1drv.com/y4mJj-RFXYvewS3jDtTP6Cuz9Gkxs7YPLEMmyc7x8MFMXPBVyPu7mSjF XssVukoluym2ZsqyGYpAxHIzQjV_FIb1Er-P6BAA49ncU42uzcYt_TsZ1tiPKwKbYGhrIswhT3USVx0Iza1NU nUUl3-xbzwYEpfLDpxWDXxGumPlgU47uYiQw6vfYqbarD7CtYQ61cavm lUIveLqBm8HDTVYE6Gaw?width=1598&height=900&cropmode=none

853guy · May 23, 2017

Al M. said:
Thanks, 853guy, for giving me a better perspective on what actually was going on at Munich. Also young people, and entry-level stuff. If you would believe the threads here and on Audioshark, it was all bling and hyper-expensive stuff. But perhaps that's what you get when people post from a perspective skewed mainly towards the bling and hyper-expensive stuff...

Do you want to read a travel blog of someone's trip to Philadelphia?

No, you want to read a travel blog of someone's trip to Koh Samui, or Belize, or Socotra or Paris.

Honestly, I do too.

853guy

Al M. · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
Do you want to read a travel blog of someone's trip to Philadelphia?

No, you want to read a travel blog of someone's trip to Koh Samui, or Belize, or Socotra or Paris.

Honestly, I do too.

853guy

Yes, and when you go to Munich I want to read all that happens in Munich, not just the hyper-expensive happenings, and the bling.

853guy · May 23, 2017

Al M. said:
On the other hand, we also have morricab' perspective, with which this whole debate actually started (emphasis mine):

morricab said:

People are just getting more and more scared to have anything "affordable" at the show for lack of being taken "seriously".

Click to expand...

I think that's true to a degree, especially if you're a manufacturer that's a niche within a niche and your products come with caveats of little compromise in regard to lifestyle choices (i.e. size, heat, power consumption, space, etc). But there were literally a thousand other brands there looking to attract the mass-market consumer with something a little different, and even high-end brands are making one-box solutions (Constellation, Naim, Weiss, Lyravox, Devialet, etc) to appeal to a consumer that's wanting an alternative to Bose and Klipsch et al.

Munich did change my perspective, and for the better. That I generally tend toward an optimistic disposition is possibly a form of bias that's ignorant of several realities, but as a guy who believes cassette will make a comeback any day now, I offer these thoughts for whatever they're worth.

853guy

853guy · May 23, 2017

Al M. said:
Yes, and when you go to Munich I want to read all that happens in Munich, not just the hyper-expensive happenings, and the bling.

Or, you could quit expecting to live vicariously through someone else, get on a plane, and we can have this discussion next year while sipping German lager instead.

853guy

P.S.If you do come, the lager's on me...

Al M. · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
I think that's true to a degree, especially if you're a manufacturer that's a niche within a niche and your products come with caveats of little compromise in regard to lifestyle choices (i.e. size, heat, power consumption, space, etc). But there were literally a thousand other brands there looking to attract the mass-market consumer with something a little different, and even high-end brands are making one-box solutions (Constellation, Naim, Weiss, Lyravox, Devialet, etc) to appeal to a consumer that's wanting an alternative to Bose and Klipsch et al.

Munich did change my perspective, and for the better. That I generally tend toward an optimistic disposition is possibly a form of bias that's ignorant of several realities, but as a guy who believes cassette will make a comeback any day now, I offer these thoughts for whatever they're worth.

853guy

Thanks again for offering a perspective of the Munich show that, judging from your narratives, seems closer to the truth, and which gives hope for the future of high-end audio.

Al M. · May 23, 2017

853guy said:
P.S.If you do come, the lager's on me...

Thanks

Zero000 · May 23, 2017

Silbatone / GIP

The stills might be on my phone. I must have around 400 pics.

Anyway, after resetting my head in 2011 with the WE 16A, and doing even better playing Led Zep's Whole Lotta Love in 2014 via 12A, 13A, this, for me, was a huge disappointment.

There's three speakers in view, two of which are GIP. The big ones with the top mounted horns are WE. Only half the bottom section is there, as the height of the room does not permit the full setup.

Just did nothing for me really, GIP or WE. The question is why? Programme material and volume? No. Even Led Zep didn't work for me with this set up. I stayed in there for a good while. Nothing excelled.

You could argue what you heard was nicely natural a lot of the time. And that would be fair. But things could get rough and I did hear some pretty blatant distortion going on.

Bummer.

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High end Munich 2017

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