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Thread: Magico Mini II, Q1, S1 - Does anyone use subs with these?

  1. #1
    Addicted to Best! PeterA's Avatar
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    Magico Mini II, Q1, S1 - Does anyone use subs with these?

    I have tried twice now to integrate subs with my Magico Mini II speakers. The first time was with two JL Audio F110s. Last night I tried a friend's REL Gibralter. I find I prefer the sound of my system in its small room without subs. I once asked Alon Wolf if he suggested adding a sub to his two way speakers. He said no, adding that a Magico three-way speaker would be a better choice. He did say that adding a sub or two to one of the larger Magico speakers could be beneficial.

    Has anyone tried subs with one of these Magico two-way speakers? If so, what are the results and details of the installation?

    EDIT: Just found this quote and this link: http://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociety...f-audio-magic/

    "We heard parts of five excellent music selections, beginning with a solo piano piece and including a male vocal with guitar, a Shostakovich orchestral selection, something from Holly Cole and a piece by bassist Avishai Cohen. Selections were all well recorded, and when played loud in this excellent room, as Alon did, the sound was immersive. Certainly the new S1 MkII exceeded my expectations for what a two-way floorstander of modest size can do (no doubt helped by the fantastic room). The S1 MkII produced a big sound of extremely high resolution. Timbre was spot-on, mid and upper bass and lower midrange seemed present in the system in a surprising way, giving piano a full-throated quality you don’t expect from a modest two-way. Bass was satisfying, as evidenced by someone in every group asking “where’s the sub hidden?” There was no sub in the room. For a small two-way, the bass was quite impressive. When asked about augmenting the bass with subs, Alon Wolf said that he thinks it’s a mistake to pair two-way speakers with a subwoofer. Three-way or more, yes, but not two-way. Interesting."
    Last edited by PeterA; 01-27-2017 at 10:41 AM.
    My system link on WBF: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-Sublime-Sound
    Analog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
    Electronics: Pass Labs XA160.5 amp, XP-22 preamp, XP-25 phono, Cables: Transparent REF XL MM2,
    Speakers: Magico Q3, Magico Mini II, Essentials: Jim Smith RoomPlay, 3 Vibraplanes, Dedicated circuits

  2. #2
    Peter,
    Have you seen this set up on Audiogon?

    https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5093
    My system:
    PBN 2!5s Horn Speakers. Lamm LL2.1 Deluxe Preamp. Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe Phono. Lamm ML1.2 Push/Pull Amps. Acoustic Signature Ascona Turntable. SME 3012R Tonearm. Various Cartridges including: AirTight, Ortofon SPU, Signet MM and Grace MM. Sonorus Modified Revox P99 Tape Deck. Custom Cables

    http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...f-s-Stereo-Den

  3. #3
    Addicted to Best! PeterA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffrey_t View Post
    Peter,
    Have you seen this set up on Audiogon?

    https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5093
    Yes I have. Thanks Jeffrey. There was some good information on that thread.
    My system link on WBF: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-Sublime-Sound
    Analog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
    Electronics: Pass Labs XA160.5 amp, XP-22 preamp, XP-25 phono, Cables: Transparent REF XL MM2,
    Speakers: Magico Q3, Magico Mini II, Essentials: Jim Smith RoomPlay, 3 Vibraplanes, Dedicated circuits

  4. #4
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    i am going to take a random guess based on my own personal experience and a non-techie view of this: balancing a sub with exacting monitors (my old Celestion SL6si and Guarneris) came down to whether i preferred and act of omission or of commission:

    - without sub, i lost deep bass and scale
    - with sub, i got deep bass and scale, but coherence was lost because i had 2 sides of the audio spectrum and they did not therefore balance as well as just the Guarneris or even the SL6si's by themselves.

    For me, i took the former...bass and scale as a personal choice. I knew in comparison to true full-range speakers...i eventually went up to the SF Strad and now further up to the big Wilsons...there was sort of a 'hole', a notable difference between:

    - the range in between sub and monitors
    - the scale that the sub was adding...vs the scale that the monitors were able to convey via the upper bass/lower mids...not particularly well balanced

    But in the overall impression, i can say I got more scale, greater width, a better 'foolability' factor and more deep bass.

    With your Magico's (which i dont know well)...i suppose you could try (setting aside cost) a Magico QSub...or a sub you were confident could reach higher up the bass registers without distortion to 'meet' the Magicos' and try to ensure as seamless a blend as possible...but given how much you have sought to 'perfect' your coherence, even detail retrieval, etc...you may still hear it.

    In the end sum game...its whether you prefer what the sub adds, vs what the lack of perfect blending reveals.

    I also dont know your room and whether the bass you are getting is fulsome enough that frankly a sub is overkill. In my case, after 6 listening rooms in over 20+ years, i have always enjoyed a sub.
    Speaker: Wilson X1 + Velodyne DD18+
    Source: Zanden 4-Box Digital
    Amp: CJ GAT2 + Gryphon Colosseum
    Cable: TA Opus Gen5&MM2 + PAD 25th Sablon GCUber
    Isolation Sandwiches: Under: HRS.Stillpoints.Auralex Top: HRS.Artesania.Entreq.EAT.90kg Mass Damping
    Power/Ground&Shield: 7 x 16A Furutech . Burmester948 . NordostQX4 / Tripoint Troy Sig+Thor . Entreq Atlantis/Receivus/Everest/Wrap
    Room/Tube: Stillpoints Apertures / Amperex.Mullard
    Headphone: Sennheiser 650 . Arcam rHead . ApogeeGroove

  5. #5
    i added stereo F110s to S3s to great (!) effect. the implementation matters, and i found the results were only acceptable when:
    1) mains run full range, subs x-over at 80db w/ 24db crossover (quick dropoff)
    2) subs elevated 3" (to reduce floor coupling and tighten bass)
    3) sub stock feet removed for hard cone feet (faster & tighter bass)
    4) mass load front baffle of sub (further improvement in articulation).
    5) set volume to variable (reference is too loud) below mid point and of course run the microphone equalizer as you make these changes--to both subs.

    now using S-1s et al may be more difficult due to extending the subs to a higher x-over range rather than the 80 i used. but i'd also offer that if you didn't do these things, you didn't give your subs the best chance poss. ---high end is about attention to details, and subs are not easy to do right. but F110s are excellent (note, i've sold my S3s and am likely to do the same w/ my subs but thats b/c Sasha 2s dont need the extra bass).

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    Agree with Rhyno on many counts possibly all of them. In my case:

    - Run Wilsons Full Range
    - Setup the Velodyne very much with measurements first...but fine tuned by ear second which took months, a few weeks at a time listening to music constantly
    - Have it on top of Ultra 5s ON TOP of an Auralex Big Gramma isolation platform so drastically reduced interaction with the floor (actually slim-to-none from a 'practical' perspective)
    (in other words the stock feet are not touching anything anymore) since the Ultra 5s sit under the cabinet
    - Have 154 POUNDS of mass damping brass weight placed carefully and on top of 5 Artesania damping plates placed on specific areas on top of the Velodyne

    have never looked back.
    Speaker: Wilson X1 + Velodyne DD18+
    Source: Zanden 4-Box Digital
    Amp: CJ GAT2 + Gryphon Colosseum
    Cable: TA Opus Gen5&MM2 + PAD 25th Sablon GCUber
    Isolation Sandwiches: Under: HRS.Stillpoints.Auralex Top: HRS.Artesania.Entreq.EAT.90kg Mass Damping
    Power/Ground&Shield: 7 x 16A Furutech . Burmester948 . NordostQX4 / Tripoint Troy Sig+Thor . Entreq Atlantis/Receivus/Everest/Wrap
    Room/Tube: Stillpoints Apertures / Amperex.Mullard
    Headphone: Sennheiser 650 . Arcam rHead . ApogeeGroove

  7. #7
    Member Cincy2's Avatar
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    I've got two REL G1Mk2 subs set up with Magico M3's. Here are some links to articles from Jim Smith (Bet Better Music author) on how to integrate them with a full range loudspeaker.


    http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwoofery-the-finale/


    http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwo...rick-or-treat/


    http://www.psaudio.com/article/38363/

    Cincy
    MSB Select II DAC
    D'Agostino M400 monoblocks
    Magico M3 speakers
    REL G1Mk2 Subwoofers
    PS Audio P20 regenerator
    Transparent Opus Gen 5 and Reference speaker cables and interconnects

  8. #8
    Addicted to Best! DaveyF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LL21 View Post
    i am going to take a random guess based on my own personal experience and a non-techie view of this: balancing a sub with exacting monitors (my old Celestion SL6si and Guarneris) came down to whether i preferred and act of omission or of commission:

    - without sub, i lost deep bass and scale
    - with sub, i got deep bass and scale, but coherence was lost because i had 2 sides of the audio spectrum and they did not therefore balance as well as just the Guarneris or even the SL6si's by themselves.

    For me, i took the former...bass and scale as a personal choice. I knew in comparison to true full-range speakers...i eventually went up to the SF Strad and now further up to the big Wilsons...there was sort of a 'hole', a notable difference between:

    - the range in between sub and monitors
    - the scale that the sub was adding...vs the scale that the monitors were able to convey via the upper bass/lower mids...not particularly well balanced

    But in the overall impression, i can say I got more scale, greater width, a better 'foolability' factor and more deep bass.

    With your Magico's (which i dont know well)...i suppose you could try (setting aside cost) a Magico QSub...or a sub you were confident could reach higher up the bass registers without distortion to 'meet' the Magicos' and try to ensure as seamless a blend as possible...but given how much you have sought to 'perfect' your coherence, even detail retrieval, etc...you may still hear it.

    In the end sum game...its whether you prefer what the sub adds, vs what the lack of perfect blending reveals.

    I also dont know your room and whether the bass you are getting is fulsome enough that frankly a sub is overkill. In my case, after 6 listening rooms in over 20+ years, i have always enjoyed a sub.
    Lloyd, it is a pity that they may not have tried a REL when you owned the G's. I can very easily see how you could come to the conclusion that you did with the G's and say a large Velodyne. The blend is crucial with a fast and highly resolving speaker like the G. If you have a sub that cannot keep up with the G's, then there will be definite hole and loss of coherence like you described. That is why I chose the smaller and quicker acting driver in the T5, because it had a higher likelyhood of keeping pace with the mains.
    The imbalance with a mismatched sub and a quick monitor is definitely not a great thing...and easily audible.
    Of course, one of the simplest solutions...if you have a big enough room... is to acquire a more full range speaker.
    IF...you have the room, and it can support the larger speaker. That's the key issue for most of us.

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    Addicted to Best! sbo6's Avatar
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    For a small two-way, the bass was quite impressive. When asked about augmenting the bass with subs, Alon Wolf said that he thinks itís a mistake to pair two-way speakers with a subwoofer. Three-way or more, yes, but not two-way. Interesting."
    Why? I bet adding a few JL Audio F1xx and the JL Audio CR1 would yield exemplary results with proper setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LL21 View Post
    Agree with Rhyno on many counts possibly all of them. In my case:

    - Run Wilsons Full Range
    - Setup the Velodyne very much with measurements first...but fine tuned by ear second which took months, a few weeks at a time listening to music constantly
    - Have it on top of Ultra 5s ON TOP of an Auralex Big Gramma isolation platform so drastically reduced interaction with the floor (actually slim-to-none from a 'practical' perspective)
    (in other words the stock feet are not touching anything anymore) since the Ultra 5s sit under the cabinet
    - Have 154 POUNDS of mass damping brass weight placed carefully and on top of 5 Artesania damping plates placed on specific areas on top of the Velodyne

    have never looked back.
    154 pounds on each sub? How big is that weight?

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