Warped Records - What is the 'best' cure?

jadis · Dec 10, 2010

Or is there? Admittedly, in my record collecting, buying records that turns out warped ranks among the top 2 headaches, the other being scratched records. Mind you, both problems can turn up 'after' buying the record in satisfactory condition. In time, improper storage and heat can warp your records right inside your room though they were bought flat. Also, one might accidentally drop a pristine record while about to play it, thereby causing a scratch.

That said, scratched records have no cure. But warped records, there might be hope. Might, as most methods known are 'touch and go', meaning there is always a risk that the warped records will get worse after the cure. Some 'cures' I have tried are baking in oven in low heat (sandwiched in glass sheets) and long minutes (to me, always a disaster), heating under the sun sandwiched in glass sheets as well (this one worked well for a couple of years until global warming kept our sun from heating normally), heating under light bulb (disaster as well), using a friend's de-warping unit from Air Tight (2 ok, 2 disasters), and of late, simply stacking the warped record vertically in my shelf 'as tight as possible' for about 2-3 months. (The last has the best success rate as there is no risk of further destroying the LP). Any other experiences?

RBFC · Dec 10, 2010

I had great success with many warped LPs with my SOTA Star Sapphire turntable. Its vacuum platter sucked the record down flat onto the mat. I miss those days.

Lee

jadis · Dec 10, 2010

RBFC said:
I had great success with many warped LPs with my SOTA Star Sapphire turntable. Its vacuum platter sucked the record down flat onto the mat. I miss those days.

Lee

Oh yes. The vacuum hold down platter. I saw one in action before, and a few friends still use some Luxman TTs with vacuum hold down platters.

MylesBAstor · Dec 10, 2010

jadis said:
Or is there? Admittedly, in my record collecting, buying records that turns out warped ranks among the top 2 headaches, the other being scratched records. Mind you, both problems can turn up 'after' buying the record in satisfactory condition. In time, improper storage and heat can warp your records right inside your room though they were bought flat. Also, one might accidentally drop a pristine record while about to play it, thereby causing a scratch.

That said, scratched records have no cure. But warped records, there might be hope. Might, as most methods known are 'touch and go', meaning there is always a risk that the warped records will get worse after the cure. Some 'cures' I have tried are baking in oven in low heat (sandwiched in glass sheets) and long minutes (to me, always a disaster), heating under the sun sandwiched in glass sheets as well (this one worked well for a couple of years until global warming kept our sun from heating normally), heating under light bulb (disaster as well), using a friend's de-warping unit from Air Tight (2 ok, 2 disasters), and of late, simply stacking the warped record vertically in my shelf 'as tight as possible' for about 2-3 months. (The last has the best success rate as there is no risk of further destroying the LP). Any other experiences?

The VPI with ring clamp and center weight handles warped records with no problem. The only problem is with records that aren't quite 12 inches and the record clamps won't sit on the record (primarily a problem with Classic Records).

jadis · Dec 10, 2010

MylesBAstor said:
The VPI with ring clamp and center weight handles warped records with no problem. The only problem is with records that aren't quite 12 inches and the record clamps won't sit on the record (primarily a problem with Classic Records).

True, Myles. I've seen the ring clamp at work too but one friend reported an unfriendly mating with his Triplanar tonearm. He said that towards the end of the record, the Triplanar arm has some part that becomes so dangerously close to the outer ring itself and on one rare instance the arm went too 'inwards' and actually slightly hit the outer ring which resulted in the 'dribbling' his entire arm/cartridge assembly. The result is a broken cart. Care must be exercised too in cueing the cart to the lead in grooves. You don't wanna land it in the metal ring. I myself am very satisfied with the VPI screw in clamp with felt washer. If I should change to another TT, that feature would be a 'must have'.

MylesBAstor · Dec 10, 2010

jadis said:
True, Myles. I've seen the ring clamp at work too but one friend reported an unfriendly mating with his Triplanar tonearm. He said that towards the end of the record, the Triplanar arm has some part that becomes so dangerously close to the outer ring itself and on one rare instance the arm went too 'inwards' and actually slightly hit the outer ring which resulted in the 'dribbling' his entire arm/cartridge assembly. The result is a broken cart. Care must be exercised too in cueing the cart to the lead in grooves. You don't wanna land it in the metal ring. I myself am very satisfied with the VPI screw in clamp with felt washer. If I should change to another TT, that feature would be a 'must have'.

OK I could see that possibly happening also with an SME too with its tapered arm.

I agree about the cuing but I don't find it to be an issue. One can also miss the lead in groove too with the cartridge

jadis · Dec 10, 2010

MylesBAstor said:
OK I could see that possibly happening also with an SME too with its tapered arm.

I agree about the cuing but I don't find it to be an issue. One can also miss the lead in groove too with the carrtridge

Yes, Myles. As in anything with analog playback, these miniscule things can spell audio bliss and disaster. Which reminds me, I once dropped my LAST record brush on to the LP while it was spinning on the platter and thank goodness, before it made the full circle rotation that would have hit the arm/cart assembly, I was able to 'snatch' it up and thereby prevent a terrible heart palpitation.

JackD201 · Dec 10, 2010

I used an HRX for a long time and the clamp and weight really work. I always had to remind myself not to clamp when drinking. Not only was I afraid I might break a cart, I was just as afraid I might drop it on my foot!

The guy with the broken cart is a mutual friend of Jadis and myself.

jadis · Dec 10, 2010

JackD201 said:
I used an HRX for a long time and the clamp and weight really work. I always had to remind myself not to clamp when drinking. Not only was I afraid I might break a cart, I was just as afraid I might drop it on my foot!

The guy with the broken cart is a mutual friend of Jadis and myself.

Right Jack. I recall those discounted warped records that were near mint surfaces paid for the outer ring.

And dropping the ring on your foot might cost as much as a broken cart, and put you on the 'inactive list' for a while. LOL

Mike Lavigne · Dec 12, 2010

one of my 3 tt's, the Rockport Sirius III, has vacuum hold down, which solves the warping problem.

my other 2 tt's do not have vacuum. in my experience only a small fraction of Lps have warps to the degree where it is an issue. but when there is a great piece of music you cannot play it is very frustrating.

i have found that when you purchase new vinyl of current pop music that the pressing quality is many times marginal and i've seen more warps in those puchases than old Lps or audiophile reissues. if you rarely buy new pop Lps then i would not worry too much about warps.

a related topic to warp solutions is the whole tt weight/center clamp issue. i have yet to find a clamp or weight which 'sounds' as good as 'no weight or clamp' to my ears. there is typically a deadening and muting of the life of the music with a weight or clamp. if you need a clamp then i suppose there are good ones and better ones.

MylesBAstor · Dec 12, 2010

Mike Lavigne said:
one of my 3 tt's, the Rockport Sirius III, has vacuum hold down, which solves the warping problem.

my other 2 tt's do not have vacuum. in my experience only a small fraction of Lps have warps to the degree where it is an issue. but when there is a great piece of music you cannot play it is very frustrating.

i have found that when you purchase new vinyl of current pop music that the pressing quality is many times marginal and i've seen more warps in those puchases than old Lps or audiophile reissues. if you rarely buy new pop Lps then i would not worry too much about warps.

a related topic to warp solutions is the whole tt weight/center clamp issue. i have yet to find a clamp or weight which 'sounds' as good as 'no weight or clamp' to my ears. there is typically a deadening and muting of the life of the music with a weight or clamp. if you need a clamp then i suppose there are good ones and better ones.

See my comments on the HIFI Tuning record weight

jadis · Dec 12, 2010

Mike Lavigne said:
one of my 3 tt's, the Rockport Sirius III, has vacuum hold down, which solves the warping problem.

my other 2 tt's do not have vacuum. in my experience only a small fraction of Lps have warps to the degree where it is an issue. but when there is a great piece of music you cannot play it is very frustrating.

i have found that when you purchase new vinyl of current pop music that the pressing quality is many times marginal and i've seen more warps in those puchases than old Lps or audiophile reissues. if you rarely buy new pop Lps then i would not worry too much about warps.

Agreed, Mike. They compose a small fraction of my collection but when it happens on a favorite LP of mine, and where the VPI clamp/washer hold down will not reduce the outer edge warp to playable condition, then it is downright frustrating. My ET2 arm handles mild or even greater than mild warps without skipping, skidding or mistracking but I worry about the state of my cantilever as I have heard the 'wave' motion of warped records put unnecessary stress to the cantilever of a cartridge while playing.

Again, agreed on the newer release LPs being prone to warpage. But in my experience, an erstwhile flat record can suddenly warp by itself inside my listening room, these are also rare occurrences but I found out lately that stacking them tightly in a record rack can minimize if not eliminate this.

Mike Lavigne said:
a related topic to warp solutions is the whole tt weight/center clamp issue. i have yet to find a clamp or weight which 'sounds' as good as 'no weight or clamp' to my ears. there is typically a deadening and muting of the life of the music with a weight or clamp. if you need a clamp then i suppose there are good ones and better ones.

Interesting point. For the last few years, I have not put on my VPI clamp unless there is a record warp that needs its services. I honestly don't find any significant improvement by putting on the clamp on a flat record. Maybe it's just me or my system but since you pointed out that there is even a degrading effect in your experience, I guess it's not just me who does not find the need to put it on.

karma · Aug 3, 2011

HI All,
I have owned both a Sota Star Sapphire and my current Sota Nova. Both have vacuum platters. And both are warp removers. A great scheme. They have trouble with large edge warps. In this case, I manually hold the record down to the platter until the vacuum builds up and the seal is made but which causes stalling the platter. Doing this does not hurt anything and usually works.

Sparky

jadis · Aug 3, 2011

karma said:
HI All,
I have owned both a Sota Star Sapphire and my current Sota Nova. Both have vacuum platters. And both are warp removers. A great scheme. They have trouble with large edge warps. In this case, I manually hold the record down to the platter until the vacuum builds up and the seal is made but which causes stalling the platter. Doing this does not hurt anything and usually works.

Sparky

Vacuum platters are good alternatives though I never got to use a turntable with one. Once the LP is sucked in, all is well. Which reminds me of a platter mat from Oracle many years ago. It had a very sticky surface to 'clamp' down your records but the problem is, it became too difficult to remove the LP from the mat because the LP is now stuck into the mat. Removing it with some force creates the likelihood of further warping the record.

karma · Aug 4, 2011

HI Phil,
With the Sota design there is no problem removing the record. Since the vacuum seal is established by a soft gasket around the periphery of the platter, one only needs to flex the gasket and the seal is broken. Then the record is easily removed.

The vacuum platter on my Nova (and other Sota models) offers other advantages that work synergistically with a variety of turntable features to offer incredibly high resolution sound. The vacuum couples the record to the acrylic/lead platter more effectively than any other design. As we all know, it is desirable to bleed vibrations away from the vinyl. As Linn demonstrated many years ago, this is caused by the stylus tracing the groove and imparting reactionary energy into the vinyl which is returned in a delayed form back to the stylus as it bounces around the record. The result is fine detail is smeared in time. With Sota's vacuum system, the reactionary energy is almost totally absorbed into the platter, thus, never reaching the stylus. This due to the intimate coupling of the record to the platter in which vacuum is much better than any clamp. BTW, the Nova also uses the excellent Reflex clamp but it is used to establish the vacuum seal at the center around the spindle.

The effectiveness of the vacuum system and other features can certainly be heard on a system that excels at reproduction of detail and resolution.

While I have tremendous respect for Ivor's discovery of a brand new phenonenom in the playback of records, I think Linn's ideas to a solution have been exceeded by the Sota designs. There is no doubt that Ivor's discovery revolutionized turntable design. This doesn't happen often.

I will never be without a vacuum turntable somewhere in my system. I say that carefully because I also have an Oracle Delphi V which just uses a nicely designed clamp. Detail, resolution, and warp elimination is not as good as the Nova but it is better in other areas. Plus, it is drop dead beautiful, IMO. So, it's nice to have both. If I had to choose, it would be the Nova.

Sparky

jadis · Aug 4, 2011

That was a nice read, Sparky. In those days, late 80s, I considered 3 TTs, Oracle Dephi III, VPI 19 II and the Sota Star Sapphire. I would have loved the vacuum platter of Sota but somehow my decision shifted to the VPI.

karma · Aug 4, 2011

jadis said:
That was a nice read, Sparky. In those days, late 80s, I considered 3 TTs, Oracle Dephi III, VPI 19 II and the Sota Star Sapphire. I would have loved the vacuum platter of Sota but somehow my decision shifted to the VPI.

HI Phil,
Yes, the VPI was high on my list too. My friend Guy Lemcoe, Stereophile equipment reviewer, had the original VPI. I spent many happy hours listening to it. How could one not be impressed? It had a big advantage over the Sota's. Bruce Thigpen at Eminent Technology suggested the VPI as being the most compatable with his air bearing arms. Guy's VPI had an ET2 arm mounted. Very nice along with its optional dial guage for measuring arm height (VTA).

But, I'm stubborn. I had decided that I wanted a vacuum system and Sota was the obvious choice in spite of potential mounting problems with the ET arm. I bought a Star Sapphire and mounted the ET2. The only problem I ran into was the arm mounts very forward on the arm board. This causes the suspended plinth to shift its level position. I was able to compensate by installing weights at the appropriate locations. It worked well.

A couple of years later I decided to upgrade to the Nova. I had the same mounting problems but this time I knew the answer. This is the turntable I still have but the arm has been upgraded to the ET2.5.

BTW, my Oracle Delphi V also has a new ET2.5 arm. On this one I installed the very sexy dial gauge.

I love that arm.

Sparky

jadis · Aug 4, 2011

Hi Sparky,

Yes, I guess that was the reason why I chose the VPI, because I had ordered an ET2. That was 20 plus years ago and I still have it now, as a tandem. They mate very well. I love the hold down clamp of the VPI and the ET2 tracks moderately warped records pretty well. And Bruce is such a great guy. Always responds to my snail mail before and emails now. Amazing that you have 3 tables and 3 ET arms. You must be real happy with them.

karma · Aug 4, 2011

HI Phil,
Well, that's not quite true. I do have 3 turntables but only two have the ET arms, the Nova and the Oracle. My third turntable is a Thorens TD125 with a Graham 2.2 Deluxe arm. I use the Thorens to audition new to me used records where the condition is unknown. I don't like using my expensive cartridges for what is essentially utility work. The cartridge I use on the Thorens is the Audio Technica OC9/II. The Graham was originally bought for the Oracle but after several months I decided that a new ET2.5 was the answer. That has turned out to be true but the Graham is still a very nice arm.

And yes, I do like the ET2.5's a lot. I don't know any other arm I would choose over them. In spite of their good reputation, I think they re underrated.

It's nice to meet another ET user here. Some people claim that the ET arms are difficult. That has not been my experience at all. I've had exactly zero troubles with them.

What has your experience been?

Sparky

jadis · Aug 4, 2011

Hi Sparky,

Yes, some people have really shunned air bearing arms altogether here. And that is because our climate is very hot and humid and also produces so much dust inside a room. By and large, my ET2 is ok, knock on wood. I started initially with a Yamato aquarium pump because the dealer said I could save some money but not buying an ET2 pump. But the thing is darned noisy I decided to built a steel hatch to muff it down. It worked. Then a friend gave me an ET2 original pump because he virtually destroyed his ET2 arm and had no use for both. That is what I'm using now. Other than constant cleaning and checking the level, my experience has been quite smooth. On a handful of records with small small dead wax, the arm sometimes skip at those inner points but those occasions are very rare. Theoretically, I feel, that is best way to trace the LPs, straight line and without friction.

Warped Records - What is the 'best' cure?

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