After not hearing back about the dac shootout proposed last year I figured that you didn't want to give it a fair shake. I will talk to Stavros about it and try to get something on the calendar later this year.
GG, Nagra HD, Aqua Formula, and SGM server.
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
After not hearing back about the dac shootout proposed last year I figured that you didn't want to give it a fair shake. I will talk to Stavros about it and try to get something on the calendar later this year.
agree. bits are not bits. we want to see it that bits are bits, since our techie training tells us that. but our ears tell us different.
optimizing HQ Player and the whole supporting environment makes a difference.....but that is not a trivial task. and it allows us to simply find the best dac, and then feed it everything at it's best level. no dac has up-sampling capability which can compete with optimized HQ Player. HQ Player fixes the data stream. perfect bit delivery systems such as Aurender or similar products do not.
so the dac is critical, but so is fixing the data stream.
well....er.....hummmm.....I used my fun money to buy a 16' CS2 last year........so I had to lay low and allow my wife to recover......
it had nothing to do with fear of something better........I follow my ears.
well....er.....hummmm.....I used my fun money to buy a 16' CS2 last year........so I had to lay low and allow my wife to recover......
it had nothing to do with fear of something better........I follow my ears.
Well if it is CS2 all is forgiven haha
Thanks for the invite, Mike. I'll certainly find time to some dwell in your sweetspot. Amir told me that being there was far, far better than outside the sweet spot. He's a good sport..... as long as you can get him offline
A few remarks on your observations.
I would not say that the precision (specific value of the component) is what matters most, but most of the time the different technology used in the more precise component makes the difference. Many components such as resistors or capacitors are only 1% precise, but sometimes within a series fabrication they are precise to better than .1% and this does not make them better sounding per se. In my SoundLab speakers cheap good quality power wire resistors sounded better than the "creme de la creme" high power precision thick film ones.
Many great designers use low precision parts known for their better sounding quality, such as carbon resistors or capacitors using low precision dielectrics.
The 1704 DACs must be harvested and selected because they are not intrinsically high precision and in a DAC using the Trinity method of generating the wave this would distort enormously the signal. We can find many higher precision DACs, but they are not adequate to this job in the Trinity.
Averaging is just a good example we have alternatives to high precision.
Just wanted to make clear that although sometimes precision of parts is needed and welcome, it is not the unique way to get excellent sound or can be taken as an indicator of high sound quality.
BTW, before I see some eyebrows rising, we are using precision and accuracy indifferently - in science and technology matters they are two very different thinks.
Yes, precision is the scatter around a mean value and accuracy is the closeness of a value to the "true" value of that item.
I think you are underplaying the precision needed to make a true 24bit IC ladder DAC. The resistors in the 1704 must be extremely precise to the point where they are laser trimmed to get exactly the desired value for each resistor. They might not sound as good as discrete resistors but they are likely held to a closer tolerance than most. The "K" version was the best of the bunch but perhaps even those aren't good enough for Trinity (I have no idea what they are doing) so that they have to select from dozens of "K"s?
Aries Cerat does the averaging thing, which according to Stavros works wonders once you get up to 16 or so per channel.
Thanks for the invite, Mike. I'll certainly find time to some dwell in your sweetspot. Amir told me that being there was far, far better than outside the sweet spot. He's a good sport..... as long as you can get him offline
the keyboard Amir is a different cat, comments on his site and reactions from that bunch are a bit more dark.......which is true to form. life goes on.....
the keyboard Amir is a different cat, comments on his site and reactions from that bunch are a bit more dark.......which is true to form. life goes on.....
Right on Mike
I wouldn't sweat the small stuff by reading the crap there. It is true to form and yes life goes on
Probably because the DACs have high precision, but do not have intrinsical high accuracy, as seen in the specifications ... It should be extremely critical in the Trinity - I think that temperature and thermal stability will be a critical point for the Trinity. BTW, Tektronix used interleaving DACs in their fast analog waveform generators since long - it is not a new subject.
As far as I know the Aries approach is completely different - but I do not have the details.
Also IMHO comparing the "sound" of the summing resistors in a DAC to the "sound" of a resistor in a preamplfier is comparing apples with oranges.
the keyboard Amir is a different cat, comments on his site and reactions from that bunch are a bit more dark.......which is true to form. life goes on.....
Lol am I lucky I came over before I read that review! Makes me wonder, would it have made me cancel the trip? Hmm, guess not
thanks. but it was a mistake for me to even mention it. I hope we just move on and not worry about it and not have it become more than it is.
Hi Bill,
I think you make a very good point. When allocating the system budget, one needs to be cognizant that the digital transport / digital processing system is as influential as the DAC itself
When your listening room is done, we would be delighted to visit and show you what the Formula can do with all tracks converted to DXD by HQ Player
Hi Ed,
Lovely to hear from you and I do hope all is well your end!
It is indeed very exciting times with this paradigm be seemingly flipped on its head and supported by Mike's system, recognised here as being absolutely the best.
My listening room is very near to completion in fact (well at least cosmetically). Will no doubt take a while to dial things back in again as the acoustics will be dramatically different to before since I removed a massive chimney, installed a 5m bifold window and built a new wall, added oak flooring, and installed dedicated power lines
. Bit nervous tbh but will see in due course. I would of course be thrilled to see you again whenever you are back in UK especially with the SGM and Formula. Really Looking forward to seeing how much better the SGM and Formula is than the GG as per Mike's report.Best,
Bill
Hi Ed,
Lovely to hear from you and I do hope all is well your end!
It is indeed very exciting times with this paradigm be seemingly flipped on its head and supported by Mike's system, recognised here as being absolutely the best.
My listening room is very near to completion in fact (well at least cosmetically). Will no doubt take a while to dial things back in again as the acoustics will be dramatically different to before since I removed a massive chimney, installed a 5m bifold window and built a new wall, added oak flooring, and installed dedicated power lines
Best,
Bill
Not wishing to contradict anyone here but... I'm not so sure that the "importance of the digital transport" is really all that new.
Many years ago I bought the Totaldac d1 server and this made a pretty big difference to the enjoyment of my (at the time) Devialet 800. Indeed I felt that it was massively influential. We've seen this for a few years on the Devialet forum now, endless threads about different transports ranging from the über expensive to the factory direct mR. So yes digital transports can make a very big difference to the performance of a DAC. This is nothing new.
Only a year ago we heard from Alan Sircom and co and his experiences pairing the Exogal Comet with the Melco and finding that it got frighteningly close to the performance of top flight DACs out there, I think a Nagra HD got mentioned didn't it?
Of course the SGM is a relatively new and exciting development but I don't think we can credit it with turning the paradigm on its head.
Guillaume
Hi Guillaume,
Of course the importance of a good transport has been well known from the beginning of the CD era. However the Transport system doing heavy DSP, has not been in the mainstream.
There is a huge difference between delivering 16/44 bit perfect, and doing heavy DSP to upsample and perhaps format convert and then delivering DXD or DSD.
The results you can get with the T+A DAC DAC 8 DSD with a European sticker price of less than Euro 3,000 and then the improving sound quality levels as you go from stock computer, to a CAPS, to SGM, and getting very marked improvements along the way, does support an allocation of the front end budget more heavily toward the transport system with heavy DSP.
Barry,
What sharp eyes you have !!
I missed seeing that when I had the cover off !!
Let me find out what the value is
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