GG, Nagra HD, Aqua Formula, and SGM server.

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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I'm exhausted.

Ed Hsu from SGM arrived last Wednesday and I've been going full bore since then; 4 hours Wednesday, Thursday and Friday nights, then 7 hours Saturday night (and 15 local audio club members until 11pm), then Sunday for 8 hours. and I worked Wednesday thru Saturday. I'm still running on fumes. it was a great time but I'm too old to push this hard.

I spent Wednesday and Thursday night (and Friday morning) with the $30k Nagra HD dac in my room along with the SGM server. this Nagra HD has the added power supply, plus the added transformers on the analog outputs (when using XLR outputs). the Nagra has a 128dsd dac which up samples all PCM to 128dsd.

the way Ed from SGM had it configured was to have the HQ Player inside the SGM up-sample all PCM to 128dsd and all dsd to 128dsd. we played things mostly this way, but at the end we also played things with the SGM outputting bit-perfect data and allowing the Nagra to do it's own upsampling of PCM and not have the HQ Player do it.

the SGM with HQ Player was quite a bit better than the Nagra on it's own, really not close at all. it was still nice sounding but lost much of it's refinement and nuance.

as far as my impressions; I preferred the Nagra HD with SGM to the GG with the SGM. the Nagra was more liquid, refined and weighty, and had more apparent detail to my ears. the GG still did great with vocals and horns and pianos, but had slightly less relative detail and did not separate instruments as well. the GG might have been slightly more open on top. the GG can sound a slight bit rough in direct comparison with the Nagra HD. (this is with the KR242 output tubes, I'm going to try the Elrogs again soon to see how this might change this part). the DHT tubes of the GG have their attributes and their limitations. on some systems maybe they might be preferred. but not in mine. the Nagra HD seemed a net gain over my GG in my system.

I preferred redbook on the Nagra HD with SGM to the GG when using the PCM RTR dac. both are good, but the Nagra HD got closer to the overall musicality of my vinyl. of course; the Nagra HD dac with the power supply is twice the cost of the GG, so that must be considered. at some point if the Nagra HD gets dsd512 then that might push the Nagra HD even higher.

on Friday morning I again listened for about 90 minutes. then went to work and was thinking about what I had heard. it occurred to me that what the Nagra was doing was placing a beautiful, lovely 'glaze' of liquidity over everything. which in some systems is exactly what is needed. but in my system it is revealed as an artifact.

which then leads to Friday night.....when the $14k Aqua Formula dac showed up. I preferred the Formula with the SGM to either the Nagra HD or the GG; and honestly in my particular system it's not close. the Formula simply sounds more like my vinyl; specifically, like my Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge. it is also reasonably priced around 13.5k euros. it's a solid state PCM only ladder dac; very, very open, natural and detailed. did I say it does space? it has the most decay of any digital product I have heard. possibly not quite as weighty as the Nagra HD. Ed had the SGM set up to upsample all dsd to dxd, 384/32. and even though it was not native, I preferred the dsd on the Aqua Formula to the other 2 dacs, on my particular system.

over the weekend the Aqua Formula opened up more; and it has great tone and is very micro dynamic. it plays more to the strengths of my system. whereas the Nagra and GG both get exposed as somewhat colored in my system when directly compared to the Formula.

for this comparison all the dacs were sitting on my Acoustic Dreams rack, sitting on Wave Kinetics A10 U8 footers. finally on Sunday afternoon Ed and I moved things around to place both the SGM and the Formula on my Adona rack. the Formula was placed on top of a Symposium Svelt Shelf, which sat on my dart preamp, which sat on my Herzan active isolation platform. I was not prepared for the degree of additional information that we heard when listening to the Aqua Formula getting the advantage of the Herzan. now it was even closer to the vinyl.

I think anyone considering the $14k Aqua Formula should instead look at it as the $24k Aqua Formula/Herzan TS-150. :)

then last night I connected grounds from the Tripoint Troy Signature to the SGM and Formula. now I hear more body and weight and naturalness. the Formula has been more natural each day I've listened to it. now it's been on since Friday night.

ultimately you should choose a dac that plays to your system and tastes. I could live with any of these fantastic dacs, but the Formula fits best.

and the SGM with HQ Player is a game-changer to my ears. each of the dacs was optimized with the SGM; and the support and degree of customization is remarkable.

so how good is the Formula?

I cannot exactly say how the Aqua Formula compares to the $56k Trinity dac I had; too many changes in my system to be definitive. my guess is that they would be similar.......might the Trinity be a little better? maybe. I know I prefer the Aqua Formula-SGM combo to my recollection of the Trinity dac--CAPSv4......for whatever that is worth.

$90k MSB Select II????

good question.

the new $74k CH Precision 3 box Mono dac????

don't know.

my guess is that the combination of the Aqua Formula and the SGM server is right up there with anything. and add the Herzan active isolation and you are living large.....assuming you have a system which likes the 'all the truth' approach.

I tried to listen to the Nagra and Aqua Formula on my CAPSv4 server to see what the SGM delta would be for those 2 dacs. Ed and my son Steve tried for 90 minutes on Sunday to load the drivers, but the Audiophile Optimizer on the CAPSv4 made it impossible to do it. it would have required a re-format and re-load and I did not need to know that anyway, some others had asked me about it. I did my best.

all three of these dacs are wonderful; I could live happily with all of them and could see each of them being ideal for particular systems.
 
Last edited:

audio.bill

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2013
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Mike - Thank you so much for making the effort to do such detailed comparisons and then taking the time to share your findings. Many of us here can benefit from your experience and I realize how fatiguing such comparative listening sessions can become. The quality level of your system along with your extensive listening experience gives your findings a lot of credibility in my book. Thanks again and good listening!
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
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great reading...thanks Mike and sounds tiring to muscle all the way thru the auditions and really keep it all straight. Will do some reading about the Aqua.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
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1,448

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Mike,

Great to have your report on these three DACs - the Italian made Aqua Formula is less known, but is an impressive product. Although it is just a coincidence it shares the use of optocouplers in the circuits with your DartZeel. :) As far as I know the company is near Milano - strange that our WBF friends from this zone are not using it!
 

microstrip

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marty

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Apr 20, 2010
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Great, great report Mike. Very informative and helpful.
Here's my question. At some point, it seemed that the best approach was to play everything in its native configuration. If I understand the Aqua/SGM method correctly, everything is now converted to DXD, correct? An inherent advantage?
Marty
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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www.genesisloudspeakers.com
Great report, Mike. I thought that the SGM + Aqua Formula had already taken a great step towards your vinyl playback by Saturday late afternoon. I had to tear myself away as I had another business trip scheduled on Monday, and needed to spend some time with the family....... and I hadn't gotten my turn at the sweet spot yet!
 

hifial

New Member
Apr 7, 2013
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Great, great report Mike. Very informative and helpful.
Here's my question. At some point, it seemed that the best approach was to play everything in its native configuration. If I understand the Aqua/SGM method correctly, everything is now converted to DXD, correct? An inherent advantage?
Marty

Hi Marty. I will let Mike give you his answer but as an Ambassador for the SGM and Sound Galleries for the Mid-Atlantic area let me give you our take.

Basically we have found it is best to use the highest rate PCM or DSD and what the best family playback system is of the DAC or its sweet spot. In other words, for a DAC that is best at PCM, such as R2R, convert/up-sample all to the highest PCM rate that DAC excepts. On a DAC that is designed to be at its best with DSD, such as the Nagra, convert/up-sample all rates to the highest DSD the DAC excepts.

It could be DXD for a PCM based DAC or DSD128 for a DSD based DAC. But it could also be DSD256 or DSD512 for a DSD DAC. Like on the T+A DAC 8 that can do DSD512 or the new engine for DSD on the GG that can do DSD512. Or you can do DXD using the R2R on the GG if you wanted.

I hope that helps.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,470
11,366
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Mike - Thank you so much for making the effort to do such detailed comparisons and then taking the time to share your findings. Many of us here can benefit from your experience and I realize how fatiguing such comparative listening sessions can become. The quality level of your system along with your extensive listening experience gives your findings a lot of credibility in my book. Thanks again and good listening!

thank you Bill, for the kind words.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,470
11,366
4,410
Mike,

Great to have your report on these three DACs - the Italian made Aqua Formula is less known, but is an impressive product. Although it is just a coincidence it shares the use of optocouplers in the circuits with your DartZeel. :) As far as I know the company is near Milano - strange that our WBF friends from this zone are not using it!

thanks for the darTZeel relevance.

the Formula is very impressive sounding!
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Fabulous info Mike.

I've been very interested in the Nagra HD for quite a while and understand that it is upgradeable to DSD 256. The Formila is most interesting. My question Mike is to ask you what you meant that the Nagra ishowed up as artifact on your system.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,470
11,366
4,410
Great, great report Mike. Very informative and helpful.
Here's my question. At some point, it seemed that the best approach was to play everything in its native configuration. If I understand the Aqua/SGM method correctly, everything is now converted to DXD, correct? An inherent advantage?

Marty

yes; the HQ Player inside the SGM converts all dsd formats to DXD, and the Aqua Formula then reads it as DXD, which I prefer to native dsd I have heard......so far.

I guess I just follow where my ears take me, and my mind tries to make sense of it as I go along. with the Trinity and GG it seemed that native ruled. but now the SGM Server with a supercharged HQ Player optimized, it turns that reality on it's head. my view now is that at the end of the day, that a great PCM ladder dac combined with the SGM can surpass the top level dsd dacs at dsd playback.

no doubt the 512dsd GG dac does wonderful dsd and PCM with the SGM........but not as wonderful to my ears as the PCM Aqua Formula......in my system.

what is great is how analog like all these dacs are. deciding which one is best in your system requires choosing, but there are many great choices.
 

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
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Nice review Mike!

Another win for R2R designs :)


Well all that's left to do is to audition the Kassandra....
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,470
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Fabulous info Mike.

I've been very interested in the Nagra HD for quite a while and understand that it is upgradeable to DSD 256. The Formila is most interesting. My question Mike is to ask you what you meant that the Nagra ishowed up as artifact on your system.

my initial perception in listening to the Nagra HD Wednesday night in my system was that it was among other things......very liquid sounding.....a good thing. then with further listening, sorting out my feelings and such you start to get a feel for what is music, and what might be sameness......character. then that Friday morning listening, and reflecting on that, I came to realize that the liquidity was somewhat of an artifact. lots of great pieces of audio gear are known for liquidity as a great attribute. and it's something mostly loved and admired. but 'mostly' is not 'completely'.....and in my system I avoid 'sameness' as it gets in the way of the musical flow when push comes to shove.

Friday the Aqua Formula arrived at my work, and Ed came to get it and take it home to my room to get it playing. when I got there later he was between tracks. so I sat down before I heard the Formula and said to Ed, "Today I realized that the Nagra's liquidity is revealed to be an artifact in my particular system, and I'm expecting that the Aqua is going to be a great linear match in my system", and that is how it played out.

the Formula played open and free, yet natural and rich where it ought to be. which is how my system plays music. the music just happens.

no doubt the Nagra HD with the SMG will be exactly the elixir for many systems and tastes, just not me when there are less intrusive choices.

I'm not criticizing 'liquidity' as a descriptor of the sound, the Aqua Formula has a degree of liquidity which is there when appropriate. but it does not impose liquidity as a constant character and flavor.

is this tubes? no.....the GG is more neutral and linear in this area. but it might be the tubed analog output stage of the Nagra along maybe with those added transformers. I can't really say why it sounds like it sounds.

i meant it when i said all these wonderful dacs will sound great in the right system.
 
Last edited:

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,470
11,366
4,410
Great report, Mike. I thought that the SGM + Aqua Formula had already taken a great step towards your vinyl playback by Saturday late afternoon. I had to tear myself away as I had another business trip scheduled on Monday, and needed to spend some time with the family....... and I hadn't gotten my turn at the sweet spot yet!

Gary,

thanks for coming out Saturday, and dragging Amir with you. it was fun giving Amir a bad time, he was a great sport playing along.:D

I hope you can come back out sometime when you are not on a time crunch and dwell in the sweet spot. you are welcome any time as you know.
 

Blue58

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
890
675
1,155
London, UK
A review worth waiting for Mike.

This comment made me smile the most:-
" I preferred the Formula with the SGM to either the Nagra HD or the GG; and honestly in my particular system it's not close. the Formula simply sounds more like my vinyl; specifically, like my Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge. "

I'm still amazed at how my T+A Dac sounds in my system and one day hope to, at least, audition the Aqua Formula.

Keep posting how it improves with time and ancillaries.

Blue58
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,443
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London
I am interested in the Aqua, and also in knowing the SGM delta, given not everyone has the budget for SGM - discussing with Audiophile Bill, who had the SGM for a while, the delta on Lampi was much lower than that on T+A.

Also, the Nagra HD dac here at Audio Lounge in London, next to the SME 30/12 with a 5k Clearaudio Titanium through a 1800 Nagra BPS phono stage, compares poorly to the GG via SPDIF, using the Nagra CD transport (I did not do a USB compare, far less an SGM compare). It was on all parameters and not just a tube/SS preference.

The rest of the system is a Burm 909 + YG Hailey, you can use the Siltech or the Nagra Jazz pre, I used the Siltech for this compare though I compared the two preamps previously on Analog.

People in/visiting London can do the shootout easily, my Lampi is available if anyone wants to borrow, it is a 10 quid Uber ride to the place with the Lampi. Easy to set up.

ps: I liked the Nagra pre, and the 1800 BPS phono - the Nagra classic had a clean tone but did not seem to have the oomph, midbass, or dynamics to drive the YG and to create a stage.
 
Last edited:

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
978
Switzerland
I'm exhausted.

Ed Hsu from SGM arrived last Wednesday and I've been going full bore since then; 4 hours Wednesday, Thursday and Friday nights, then 7 hours Saturday night (and 15 local audio club members until 11pm), then Sunday for 8 hours. and I worked Wednesday thru Saturday. I'm still running on fumes. it was a great time but I'm too old to push this hard.

I spent Wednesday and Thursday night (and Friday morning) with the $30k Nagra HD dac in my room along with the SGM server. this Nagra HD has the added power supply, plus the added transformers on the analog outputs (when using XLR outputs). the Nagra has a 128dsd dac which up samples all PCM to 128dsd.

the way Ed from SGM had it configured was to have the HQ Player inside the SGM up-sample all PCM to 128dsd and all dsd to 128dsd. we played things mostly this way, but at the end we also played things with the SGM outputting bit-perfect data and allowing the Nagra to do it's own upsampling of PCM and not have the HQ Player do it.

the SGM with HQ Player was quite a bit better than the Nagra on it's own, really not close at all. it was still nice sounding but lost much of it's refinement and nuance.

as far as my impressions; I preferred the Nagra HD with SGM to the GG with the SGM. the Nagra was more liquid, refined and weighty, and had more apparent detail to my ears. the GG still did great with vocals and horns and pianos, but had slightly less relative detail and did not separate instruments as well. the GG might have been slightly more open on top. the GG can sound a slight bit rough in direct comparison with the Nagra HD. (this is with the KR242 output tubes, I'm going to try the Elrogs again soon to see how this might change this part). the DHT tubes of the GG have their attributes and their limitations. on some systems maybe they might be preferred. but not in mine. the Nagra HD seemed a net gain over my GG in my system.

I preferred redbook on the Nagra HD with SGM to the GG when using the PCM RTR dac. both are good, but the Nagra HD got closer to the overall musicality of my vinyl. of course; the Nagra HD dac with the power supply is twice the cost of the GG, so that must be considered. at some point if the Nagra HD gets dsd512 then that might push the Nagra HD even higher.

on Friday morning I again listened for about 90 minutes. then went to work and was thinking about what I had heard. it occurred to me that what the Nagra was doing was placing a beautiful, lovely 'glaze' of liquidity over everything. which in some systems is exactly what is needed. but in my system it is revealed as an artifact.

which then leads to Friday night.....when the $14k Aqua Formula dac showed up. I preferred the Formula with the SGM to either the Nagra HD or the GG; and honestly in my particular system it's not close. the Formula simply sounds more like my vinyl; specifically, like my Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge. it is also reasonably priced around 13.5k euros. it's a solid state PCM only ladder dac; very, very open, natural and detailed. did I say it does space? it has the most decay of any digital product I have heard. possibly not quite as weighty as the Nagra HD. Ed had the SGM set up to upsample all dsd to dxd, 384/32. and even though it was not native, I preferred the dsd on the Aqua Formula to the other 2 dacs, on my particular system.

over the weekend the Aqua Formula opened up more; and it has great tone and is very micro dynamic. it plays more to the strengths of my system. whereas the Nagra and GG both get exposed as somewhat colored in my system when directly compared to the Formula.

for this comparison all the dacs were sitting on my Acoustic Dreams rack, sitting on Wave Kinetics A10 U8 footers. finally on Sunday afternoon Ed and I moved things around to place both the SGM and the Formula on my Adona rack. the Formula was placed on top of a Symposium Svelt Shelf, which sat on my dart preamp, which sat on my Herzan active isolation platform. I was not prepared for the degree of additional information that we heard when listening to the Aqua Formula getting the advantage of the Herzan. now it was even closer to the vinyl.

I think anyone considering the $14k Aqua Formula should instead look at it as the $24k Aqua Formula/Herzan TS-150. :)

then last night I connected grounds from the Tripoint Troy Signature to the SGM and Formula. now I hear more body and weight and naturalness. the Formula has been more natural each day I've listened to it. now it's been on since Friday night.

ultimately you should choose a dac that plays to your system and tastes. I could live with any of these fantastic dacs, but the Formula fits best.

and the SGM with HQ Player is a game-changer to my ears. each of the dacs was optimized with the SGM; and the support and degree of customization is remarkable.

so how good is the Formula?

I cannot exactly say how the Aqua Formula compares to the $56k Trinity dac I had; too many changes in my system to be definitive. my guess is that they would be similar.......might the Trinity be a little better? maybe. I know I prefer the Aqua Formula-SGM combo to my recollection of the Trinity dac--CAPSv4......for whatever that is worth.

$90k MSB Select II????

good question.

the new $74k CH Precision 3 box Mono dac????

don't know.

my guess is that the combination of the Aqua Formula and the SGM server is right up there with anything. and add the Herzan active isolation and you are living large.....assuming you have a system which likes the 'all the truth' approach.

I tried to listen to the Nagra and Aqua Formula on my CAPSv4 server to see what the SGM delta would be for those 2 dacs. Ed and my son Steve tried for 90 minutes on Sunday to load the drivers, but the Audiophile Optimizer on the CAPSv4 made it impossible to do it. it would have required a re-format and re-load and I did not need to know that anyway, some others had asked me about it. I did my best.

all three of these dacs are wonderful; I could live happily with all of them and could see each of them being ideal for particular systems.


I am a big fan of ladder DACs, always have been, and for me the BB PCM63PK and the UltraAnalog D20400 were the pinnacle of these designs...better than the PCM1704 despite having 4 less bits. I am not sure that these discrete designs coming out today are really better than if the whole thing is miniaturized like it was in the 90s.

You should give the Aries Cerat Kassandra II a try if you have looking for a killer DAC. It is using an extreme version of the MMB (multi-multi bit) concept from Accuphase and has like 16 AD1865N chips per channel with an amazing analog output stage.

What about the hybrid Aqua instead of the all SS Formula? It has the same discrete R2R dac.
 

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