Making the Move to HDR [FULL PANEL] | HDR & SDR | Educational Video

Sharp 1080

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Apr 20, 2010
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Thanks for posting the video. I'm just getting into UHD with HDR with a few discs. I have had a few "wow" moments so far! I'm using the Sony XBR 940D. SDR isn't bad either. The 1080P to 4K upscaling has also impressed me.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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I'm in the same position myself; learning the new technologies from Dolby...HDR...Vision...Atmos...
And 4K, and 3D fading away, and HDMI certified cables, HDMI 2.1//HDCP 2.2 - handshakes, 4K BR discs - 100GB, TVs with enough brightness for top HDR performance, same with the 4K front projectors, AV receivers and SSPs that are Dolby Vision capable (factual reality), and HDMI cables that can transfer audio/video Ultra Hi-Def and Ultra Hi-Res over say 40 feet, and even less, like 10 feet, ...and everything between that works properly.

You can call it the BEST in the Ultra High Definition World...coming soon...within the next few years before we can all lift up.
It should be a real thrill, because 3D wasn't part of the new 4K Blu-ray standards.

I also want to see the death of "Motion Blur" for good. So I am a fervent supporter of higher frame rates...eg.; 60, 120, 240fps.
I like high bit too; 12 and up.

That is why HDMI cables are very very important because they have to transfer an enormous amount of high resolving data.
To me, that's the biggest challenge we are facing today. Because tomorrow depends on today's performance and delivery.
After 4K it is 8K (already in Japan). And for that, more and more data has to be conveyed with full efficiency.

There are job openings right now in the manufacturing of Ultra High End HDMI cables.
Also, in the video chips business. Job opportunities for our youngsters.
The elite executives they have the bright ideas (except for killing 3D and not providing Dolby Atmos with all BR formats), and it's up to the real builders to put them in reality.

It's a great time for TV manufacturers. The best TVs are expensive, very. Today's TVs are more expensive than yesterday standard hi-def TVs with 3D from LCD and Plasma technologies. They can now make money again, with higher margins.

Cheers,
 

audioguy

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Apr 20, 2010
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For those reading this who are considering HDR for a projection system, take note: unless your screen is high gain and/or not too large, stick with SDR/WCG. Unless you have one of the very expensive and high lumen projectors like the $60,000 SONY, the $35,000 JVC or a few other models, there won't be enough brightness to make it work well.
 

DSkip

Industry Expert
Aug 26, 2013
442
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Arlington, TX
www.audiothesis.com
Thanks for posting the video. I'm just getting into UHD with HDR with a few discs. I have had a few "wow" moments so far! I'm using the Sony XBR 940D. SDR isn't bad either. The 1080P to 4K upscaling has also impressed me.

I use the 940C and love it. The motion blur technology they implement really impresses me, although at times the algorithm causes some glitching to occur in high paced scenes. Like NorthStar, my biggest peeve is the motion blur. Resolution doesn't impress me much anymore since we have gotten so high, but the motion blur can be absurd when you start taking into account larger screens.
 

NorthStar

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I like your sig:

https://www.audiothesis.com/
USA Distributor for North Star Design
https://www.northstar.it/

_______

I'm all from re-adaptation; high frame rate. Because motion blur is not a normality in real life. Just turn your head in a 360° circle and observe all around.
There are no trailing tails, no shooting star effect, no comet trail, no blurring, ...just quick "not enough time to focus". ...Unfocused but clear.

Chuck is right regarding HDR; people won''t benefit if their display (flat panel TV or front projector's screen) aren't bright enough. That's why TV manufacturers kill 3D in 2017, to compete in the "Brightness" game necessary for UHD HDR.

But wait, we didn't see anything yet; Dolby Vision has to make its apparition on 4K Blu-ray, and the movie studios start re-releasing 4K HDR Blu-ray titles like 'The Revenant', 'Deadpool', 'The Shallows', 'Suicide Squat', etc., again on 4K Dolby Vision Blu-ray.
If we think that we can get away without being double dipped, we should think again.

This is a new era; when TV manufacturers and Blu-ray replicators (new better transfers), Dolby Atmos, Dolby Vision, Hollywood ...are back @ making even more money like never before.

Chuck mentioned $60,000 front projectors, less expensive ones @ $30,000
A top quality 2017 model LG 4K OLED TV (HDR/Dolby Vision Ready) in the 77" class = $25,000 (non-3D).
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Pleasanton, CA
For those reading this who are considering HDR for a projection system, take note: unless your screen is high gain and/or not too large, stick with SDR/WCG. Unless you have one of the very expensive and high lumen projectors like the $60,000 SONY, the $35,000 JVC or a few other models, there won't be enough brightness to make it work well.

From what I have read, the HDR is pretty superfluous with projectors and may make them worse in some ways. I also believe that the "charm" of projectors is not always served simply by blazing a hole in the wall.

Even the Sony VPL VW5000es laser projector can only make a small dent in the HDR brightness range.
 

MadFloyd

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May 30, 2010
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For those reading this who are considering HDR for a projection system, take note: unless your screen is high gain and/or not too large, stick with SDR/WCG. Unless you have one of the very expensive and high lumen projectors like the $60,000 SONY, the $35,000 JVC or a few other models, there won't be enough brightness to make it work well.

Do you consider an 11' wide 2.35:1 screen small? Perfect size for the $35k JVC.
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,794
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Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
From what I have read, the HDR is pretty superfluous with projectors and may make them worse in some ways. I also believe that the "charm" of projectors is not always served simply by blazing a hole in the wall.

Even the Sony VPL VW5000es laser projector can only make a small dent in the HDR brightness range.

Based upon my limited experience, SDR with Wide Color Gamut (SDR/WCG) gets you REALLY close to HDR with none of the headaches - and that is how I watch 4K content.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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From what I have read, the HDR is pretty superfluous with projectors and may make them worse in some ways. I also believe that the "charm" of projectors is not always served simply by blazing a hole in the wall.

Even the Sony VPL VW5000es laser projector can only make a small dent in the HDR brightness range.

You can also drill a hole in the ceiling. Or you can put the projector on a shelf built in the rear wall.
I like it when we go to a small theater (100 seats) and that the projector is in the back room with an opening in the rear wall; it keeps the noise away.
______

By the way, my own personal favorite film last year (2016) was Julieta
In comparison, from another site with few hundred voters, it ended up @ number 75 position. Most people, the vast majority did not see it, and even if they would have ...
The number one was La La Land
And number two spot was Arrival
______


______

I'm curious; how many people here find the picture and sound superior in their own homes than @ their local theaters?
I'm one of them, and it is super modest. So I can only imagine someone with a state-of-the-art cinema maison setup.

Someone said to me, another 3D movie lover; "Bob, they killed 3D because it was stealing the brightness of the new ultra thin 4K HDR flat panels."
I believed him; the reason why there are no more 3D UHD TVs in 2017. All the brightness they can squeezed from their light system (OLED, QLED, LED, bulb, laser, ...) has to be available for top HDR performance. Adios 3D, welcome 4K HDR. It can only get [strike]worst[/strike] better from now on. Next year 4K TVs will be brighter than this year, with a better HDR rendition...more High Dynamic Range.

I dream of the day when HDR and 4K will be available for 3D Blu-ray. In 2019, or around, when James Cameron comes up with Avatar 2 in 3D; some technical movie people might start rethinking some new BR standards. Till then we'll observe what Blu-ray with Dolby Vision might create...a bigger niche or the incentive to stream even more.
If I was a top stock broker; I'll invest some of my time learning more about Disney. Hey, they have PIXAR, Marvel, Pirates of the Caribbean, Star Wars, and all the best kids stuff animation movies. ...Plus plus plus ...merchandise...all that jazz. ...And Disneyland ("La La Land" in parlance) all across the oceans.
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
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Pleasanton, CA
Based upon my limited experience, SDR with Wide Color Gamut (SDR/WCG) gets you REALLY close to HDR with none of the headaches - and that is how I watch 4K content.

I gather that there are SDR schemes that can come very close to HDR effects without requiring a lot of extreme brightness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ES03MkctjM

There may be HDR electronic "translators" eventually that will allow better dark and shadow effects as well as specular highlights for media like projectors without requiring the extreme peak brightnesses.
 

DSkip

Industry Expert
Aug 26, 2013
442
194
350
Arlington, TX
www.audiothesis.com
I find it difficult to engage in a movie like I would when watching my 940C. The screens are almost too big for the resolution and the motion blur kills it for me. I actually prefer watching movies on my Epson 8100 on a 92" screen than going to the movies. The 940C made it so that I'm not too concerned with upgrading the Epson and use it mostly for gaming anyways.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
I know Chuck. We cannot fight an already determined battle. :b
All that I can do is to buy the ones available, Dolby Atmos or not, with an older 3D TV (prior to 2017), and keep tracking scores of the best new 3D BR transfers out there and where quality 3D cameras were used. ...Or, good conversions were executed. 3D is well alive because many films are presented that way in some of the world's best REAL (((3D))) IMAX theaters, and CINERAMAX 3D. The Hollywood movie studios, and others from across the seas, are still transferring those 3D films on Blu-ray. There are many examples that I'm sure you are aware of.

A good solid minority of us here in North America (because in China 3D is super popular, the majority), we are a hardcore niche who don't give up, same as the analog people with turntables and music on vinyl @ 45 and 33 1/3rpm.

Nowadays the trends are ultra high res audio from downloads and MQA and HDR. Music servers, TIDAL, Roon, all that world jazz.
But the vintage/romanticism epoque is well alive here in the annales (pages) of WBF and other sites of verisimilitude (analog planet & all).
This is the audio stereo front, and multichannel classic too.

On the visuals aspect the trends are ultra high def video from downloads, streaming and Blu-ray 4K (HDR and Dolby Vision).
Few people are still playing DVDs (Carl with few occasionally), and with good results when upscaled to 4K and up-mixed with Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X or Auro-Matic 3D.

I agree with you that the majority here in North America prefer 2D over 3D. People don't like wearing glasses when watching movies; only outside with sunglasses to protect their eyes from the sun's ultraviolet rays.

The best TVs today (Sony LED Z9D Series and LG OLED W7 Series) in the 75" and 77" class size are for the serious videophile's elite. They are not inexpensive.
And the Sony Z9D Series still has the 3D feature (Active 3D). Sony Pictures are still releasing 3D Blu-ray discs. ...Even in their UHD/HDR packages ('Passengers').

I cannot watch 'Passengers' and 'Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk' in 4K UHD/HDR and high frame rate (@ 60fps for Billie) because I am still behind the curve.
I did watch the 3D versions from those packages though; that should tell you that 3D is still very much alive in my vision. It's fun.

Yes, UHD looks splendid on the best LG, Sony, Samsung 4K TVs. I am not an expert; I let my eyes follow the flow of my own rhythm beating heart.
And 3D is part of my tempo.
______

Anyway I wish to learn from people like you about HDR and SDR, like you just did from the few posts you contributed so far.
Any good links, good demo videos, ...will help when visiting video floors with the latest and best.

It's a beautiful blue planet, with beautiful blue people living on it. To see it in ultra high def, in reality, is like living life in the moment.
Everything else is low res, low life. ...Like all the fake news, lies, corruption and violence in the world.

Living the high life is worth it; be it in high dynamic range, vision from Dolby, or in reality 3D.
Our passage on Earth is short; living it extensively and with peace is a highly desirable purpose.
As much as we search for perfection in our audio/video world (HDR|SDR), the same in our human world (WBF).
 

R Johnson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2010
188
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933
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Thanks very much for the links to this series of articles! I've just started reading, but....

Many of us got into "Home Theater" to view movies at home. Theatrical movies on disc - DVD, BD, and now UHD-BD are still a key source.

With a few exceptions, movie theaters are NOT capable of the peak brightness requirements of HDR video. With one big lamp, there's no local control for small regions of high brightness.

So how is the motion picture industry dealing with HDR? Perhaps I'll find an answer as I continue reading...
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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Like you I'm learning from the expert articles.
You are right that we need more light from our bulbs.

It's not a bad idea to read all six articles. I am reading some threads on HDR and learning every day.
 

R Johnson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2010
188
43
933
Chicago, Illinois, USA
I finished reading the six part series, though I just skimmed the calibration business. I found a bit about cinema-grade cameras, but I didn't find anything about cinema projectors or movie theater technology.

As far as I know, the closest movie theaters come to HDR is Dolby Cinema.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Cinema
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/platforms/dolby-cinema.html

Per the above, these (few) theaters implement Dolby Vision HDR with dual laser driven 4K projectors. But this appears to only provide about twice the light output of a normal theater.

Until the majority of theaters have HDR capability, I'm not going to worry about HDR at home.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
_______

Chuck mentioned previously that HDR from a projector requires a lot of light. And the bigger the screen ....
Sony has a great TV, the Z9D LCD 75" for only $9,000 (it supposed to be the brightest). Lee has one. It is Dolby Vision ready and does HDR.
LG OLED has a 77" Class W7 model for only $25,000 (HDR and Dolby Vision).

There are zero Dolby Vision Blu-ray discs...zero. HDR yes, but not all were created equal. According to video experts only few are a clear improvement over Blu-ray. They mentioned often 'The Revenant'. ...And 'The Shallows'. ..And 'Lucy', 'Deadpool'.

But the very best, according to the top experts, are:
- Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk
- Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
- Planet Earth II
- Passengers
 
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