Schiit, interesting name...more interesting products!
- Thread starter DaveyF
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I will do a subjective review in the future after I do a teardown and finish testing of other DACs in that price range.Amir, a question....did you actually listen to the Modi 2 DAC or did you only put it on your scope?
If you did listen, what ancillary gear did you listen to it with? Photos of the set-up would be great.
As to the system, I don't think I will put it in my main system. I don't want to reduce its stability by installing random drivers in there. It is like me telling you I saw the chef come out of the bathroom at a restaurant without washing his hands and you asking me if I tasted the food.
So the testbed likely will be my Stax headphones and my workstation NHT monitors.
I have owned a Gumby and currently own an Yggy. Two great products. I have heard a Bifrost as well. Let's just say I find these measurements to be "interesting". I don't think Mike Moffat is a hack as these measurements would seem to indicate. So....
There is no comparable measurement in JA's stereophile review to mine. I tested coax S/PDIF input. He tested Toslink. My measurements show that there is strong coupling between PC activity and DAC output. That coupling gets broken using an optical link like Toslink. It goes right through using the coax input I used.
Even using Toslink JA talks about strange behavior relative to USB (when he says "S/PDIF" he means Toslink -- see the graph notation):
"Both samples offered anomalous behavior when decoding the Miller and Dunn J-Test data via S/PDIF. Fig.13, for example, shows the spectrum of the first sample's output while it decoded 16-bit J-Test data. Not only is the primary pair of sidebands at ±229Hz accentuated, and some off-order harmonics of the low-frequency, LSB-level squarewave suppressed, but there is a peculiar rise in the noise floor to either side of the spectral spike that represents the 11.025kHz tone. By contrast, fed the same 16-bit data via USB (fig.14), the noise floor now lies at the correct level and the odd-order harmonics lie at almost the correct level, though the sidebands at ±229Hz are suppressed. The same behavior is evident with the second sample, with fig.15 the 16-bit S/PDIF spectrum and fig.16 the 16-bit USB spectrum.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-bifrost-da-processor-measurements#GFecbS8g5iaECGd1.99"
In addition, note the section on testing two different samples. It seems the Schiit changes design of the DAC without changing model name/numbers.
"Then I heard that some changes in the Bifrost were on the way. I put aside that first review sample (with Gen 1 USB board and no Uber Analog option, as the latter hadn't yet been released), filed my notes away, and thought, Yeah, let's see how you look in your spiffy new coat and tie. It took several months for the upgrades to materialize;
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-bifrost-da-processor-page-2#Q0cI6GBxS4ceCekJ.99"
Who knows which version my son bought, and which version he measured.
I also discovered the system noise dependency because my Son could clearly hear the computer activity through Bifrost DAC. That bleeding will be system activity dependent. I don't see JA finding and testing for that since he was not armed as I was trying to find that correlation.
Finally, it is not my job to go and rationalize anything. Manufacturer needs to run these tests if not for anything other than making sure products are manufactured correctly. I seem to recall Moffett saying they couldn't afford to buy an Audio Precision analyzer. Well, they need to save up and get one. Then, they can try to repeat what JA and I are measuring.
Now, if that was just a fluke, it would be one thing. But the much newer Modi 2 is also showing system noise dependency. These are multiple runs/measurements with nothing in the DAC+measurement changed:
You won't get twice the same output out of this DAC, playing the same file. This is not acceptable performance in this day and age. You buy an aftermarket DAC to get away from system dependency on the built-in DAC. To be plagued by the same thing in two different units just shows lack of engineering attention. See how iFi is squeaky clean.
Joe I have been on the DSD train this weekend and having some Yggy withdrawals. I think I am going to set up a dedicated PCM and DSD path in my system using Roon. An easy click to change DACs and plenty of inputs on the REF5SE.
I don't have enough DSD to need a DAC that does DSD. I just convert to pcm. I have heard quite a few DACs that do DSD now in the same system, and find a modded Gustard to do the best job playing back DSD files. I really don't think that DSD is all that and find that pcm sounds better. Right now, if I were to get a DAC to play DSD, it would be the Gustard which I will mod.
How did you test coax SPDIF input from your PC to Bifrost DAC? So what USB to SPDIF converter did you use and why would your son insert a USB/SPDIF converter when he can connect the Bifrost directly via USB to his PC?
So again you demonstrate that you are not testing the Bifrost but a combination of Bifrost + an undisclosed USB/SPDIF converter - producing measurements which show spurs -45dB down @ 2KHz & 20KHz & blaming it all on the Bifrost
Your due process is pretty lax when it comes to slating a manufacturer's device. You did your test in 2016 on a new Bifrost & Stereophile did theirs in 2013 - so I surmise you were using the latest version!!
You mean through a USB/SPDIF converter & then to the Bifrost as that's what you tested.
I doubt a -45dB spur would not go unnoticed in his measurements & his conclusion "Overall, both samples of the Bifrost measured well, especially given the affordable price. And the second sample's Uber Analog board offers lower distortion and a usefully lower output impedance at low frequencies, justifying the cost of the upgrade" attests to the Bifrost not having the problems you claim it has.
Eh just you are measuring -45dB spurs, not JA at Stereophile. I believe that you might question your measurements before such rash pronouncements about what manufacturers do or don't do - your measurements show distortions not seen in any other Bifrost measurements so should they be reacting to Amir's flawed measurements then?
Perhaps your measurement setup has a problem as again your measurements do not show any resemblance to others http://superbestaudiofriends.org/in...p-comb-units-grace-schiit-ifi-lh-jds-etc.427/
No setup problems. Just different tests. His tests are at 1Khz and 60 Hz for his single tones:
1 Khz is next to useless for finding jitter problems because jitter directly scales with slew rate of the signal. This is why industry standard j-test uses FS/4 or 11.05 Khz for 44.1 Khz sampling and 12 Khz for 48 Khz as I used.
And remember again, that my data shows Modi 2 to have high sensitivity to system noise. So no two measurements will agree unless the source computers are identical which they are not. This is a design flaw in a high-fidelity DAC which creates consequences in measurements performed by multiple people as well.
Both JA and I use the same standardized test in that regard using similar measurement equipment. What someone online is doing otherwise is not again, my issue to deal with.
You haven't shown me "other measurements" that disagree with mine. You were confused thinking JA had tested the same input but he had not. He uses an isolated optical input, I used coax.
It is not up to JA to go and re-test the device. And I no longer have mines to re-test it on Toslink to verify JA's tests. In addition we have covered how there have been at least two versions of this DAC.
As to them caring, I expect them to measure and publish such data. You seem to think they should not bother and leave the customers in the dark. We differ in our approach here. You want to protect the industry. I like to protect the customers. That's all.
Oh I get it. After spending $400 on a DAC, I am supposed to go and look for a S/PDIF interface that makes the DAC happy??? You don't think that kind of money is spent so that the DAC is insensitive to what is going on with S/PDIF interface?
You have to be kidding me. Remember, my son could hear his own computer activity bleeding into the output of their DAC+headphone amp. I think he spent near $1000 on all that. And you are sitting here with a straight face saying that is justified?
BTW, he went and bought an Oppo DAC and these issues disappeared (although he has good enough hearing to detect that their channel balance changes with volume).
Far from your thread being a disappointment Amir, it looks to be par for the course. Laughable in other words
Just one quickie - Schiit to my knowledge doesn't make a 'Bricasti' DAC, that's another manufacturer entirely.
<later> Noted you've corrected the most obvious mistake (changed 'Bricasti' to 'Bifrost') and admitted the DAC chip was wrongly identified as AD5547.
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You are joking, aren't you? You may fool some people with your semi-technical info but you are again just waffling.No setup problems. Just different tests. His tests are at 1Khz and 60 Hz for his single tones:
1 Khz is next to useless for finding jitter problems because jitter directly scales with slew rate of the signal. This is why industry standard j-test uses FS/4 or 11.05 Khz for 44.1 Khz sampling and 12 Khz for 48 Khz as I used.
The J-test signal is nothing special in this use case - it was originally designed back in the 90s to stress SPDIF/AES receiver chips for inter symbol interference (ISI) - a known weakness in these receivers back in the day - it has no special design characteristic for other jitter testing
The spurs you show at 2KHz & 20KHz 45dB down would appear on any single tone FFT test - it's a gross distortion & nothing to do with the j-test. You have measurement setup problems is all!!!
Again -45dB down is gross distortion - you don't need any 'special' test equipment to find it. Look at your test setup to find your problem, Amir - it's been told to you before but you continue to ignore it & produce laughable measurements different to anybody else.
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So you're admitting that the SPDIF interface may be the cause of the issue & you have made no mention of this before - blaming all ills on the Bifriost. Pretty objective testing, NOT.
You still haven't revealed the full identity of the devices under test - what USB/SPDIF converter did you use?
You have habit of doing this - changing more than one parameter (in this case using a DAC & unidentified SPDIF converter), & then claiming the measurements are all due to the DAC. Again, not knowing scientific measurements procedures, it's not really surprising
My question to you is - why did he did he not use the Bifrost's USB input to connect to his PC, instead he chose to connect the Bifrost to a USB to SPDIF converter & then via SPDIF to the Bifrost? Extra expense, extra cabling, extra hassle - any explanation for the $1,000 spend when he coul dhav ejust used the Bifrost direct at what $400 - he has more than doubled his costs
Wow another DAC with problems, eh Amir?
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Calm down John. His computer had coax S/PDIF output already. So there was no outside USB to S/PDIF converter. Or extra cost.
As to S/PDIF "causing issues" it played music. It passed the samples to the DAC. It is *always* the job of the DAC to clean up the S/PDIF clock to the best of its abilities. And in the case of any competent computer audio interface, to fully isolate from the computer noise/activity. The Bifrost does not do this.
Here it is on USB being sensitive to computer activity: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-dac-review-schiit-modi-2-99.1649/#post-41173
Notice that playing identical file but using two different media players generates different output. The media players put a different load on the computer and that travelled to the analog output of a $400 DAC!!! And again, this is on USB, not S/PDIF.
And as I keep saying, my son could subjectively hear the same.
This is just crap. Both subjective and objective performance is unacceptable.
I said my son has good hearing. I skipped another Dac he bought in between: a Peachtree. This is a $1000 DAC. He comes to me and says there is a problem with it. He plays an MP3 file on it and crackles on the peaks. It didn't on my system or his motherboard analog out. I look at the file and it is a hair below clipping as much pop music is these days. The resampler in Peachtree had created an overflow causing the clipping.
Seems like you think all DACs have inaudible problems. Good for you. It ain't good enough for me.
Aha, so we get the reveal that it was the SPDIF output from a PC - now tell us about this PC & it's SPDIF output stage
You say he got an Oppo which showed no sign of this problem - I bet it wasn't using SPDIF input from the PC, was it?
As I said before, your misinformation (usually accompanied by graphs & plots to make it believable) is transparent when delved into.
Your measurements are so full of confounding factors that you stand as an great example of what audio science is NOT about !!
Now there are some people waiting on ASR for an explanation for how you could misunderstand complex numbers in such a basic sixth grader mistake - let us know when you have admitted your mistake or what denial & deflection you engaged in this time.
You say he got an Oppo which showed no sign of this problem - I bet it wasn't using SPDIF input from the PC, was it?
As I said before, your misinformation (usually accompanied by graphs & plots to make it believable) is transparent when delved into.
Your measurements are so full of confounding factors that you stand as an great example of what audio science is NOT about !!
Now there are some people waiting on ASR for an explanation for how you could misunderstand complex numbers in such a basic sixth grader mistake - let us know when you have admitted your mistake or what denial & deflection you engaged in this time.
A wise move, Marty as Amir is not engaged in any objective audio science. He likes to talk about it a lot - even set up a forum on it but really objective, no! Audio science, afraid not!
BTW all the equipment he owns & is sold through the company he's involved with, are exemplary - go figure
Here are measurements of the Yggdrasil (scroll down to second post):
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/page-3
From the link:
"The jitter measurements are the lowest I have ever seen on a DAC."
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/page-3
From the link:
"The jitter measurements are the lowest I have ever seen on a DAC."
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