Aqua Formula - settings new levels of R2R sonics and price performance

spiritofmusic

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Wisnon, getting optimal demos very hard to do
GG at 512 on SGM may not easily happen in the UK
Bill was only able to go to 256
I was always under the impression that it WASN'T critical to get best out of GG by going 512
Indeed, GG hasn't been running 512 as long as Dac8, but it's fans never felt shortchanged
Whereas it's been known quite early on that Dac8 only really comes alive at 512, designed that way from scratch
I admit I've never esp got on w tubed digital, GG on SGM didn't convince me to reappraise that view
Anyone running GG 512 on SGM in UK, I'd love to hear
Otherwise I'm happy to settle on Dac8 or Formula which may be much easier to hear on SGM
 

Audiophile Bill

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I know it sounds mad but would love to hear the SGM upsampling to PCM 32/768 or dsd 512 on the new cheap Oppo sonica with ESS pro chip.
 

Comedus76

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I'm curious about why GG at 512 is not easy/possible with the SGM? Did the GG not have the DSD512 add-on chipless board upgrade? Processing power of the SGM can't be the issue since it's readily doing 512 into the Dac8. Sorry if I've misunderstood something.

Wisnon, getting optimal demos very hard to do
GG at 512 on SGM may not easily happen in the UK
Bill was only able to go to 256
I was always under the impression that it WASN'T critical to get best out of GG by going 512
Indeed, GG hasn't been running 512 as long as Dac8, but it's fans never felt shortchanged
Whereas it's been known quite early on that Dac8 only really comes alive at 512, designed that way from scratch
I admit I've never esp got on w tubed digital, GG on SGM didn't convince me to reappraise that view
Anyone running GG 512 on SGM in UK, I'd love to hear
Otherwise I'm happy to settle on Dac8 or Formula which may be much easier to hear on SGM
 

Audiophile Bill

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I'm curious about why GG at 512 is not easy/possible with the SGM? Did the GG not have the DSD512 add-on chipless board upgrade? Processing power of the SGM can't be the issue since it's readily doing 512 into the Dac8. Sorry if I've misunderstood something.

When Marc visited me at the time I was reviewing the SGM, my GG had not had the 512 upgrade - it has now.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mike Lavigne

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I can well imagine Mike. How is the Formula now vs GG?

a few days ago I did fire up the GG and play it for awhile compared to the Formula.....both with the SGM.

no doubt that the GG 512/ KR242 is very good. and I can see it's highlighted parts, vocals, macro dynamics, boldness and flow are outstanding. overall very capable and nothing held back. but the Formula does this space thing, and adds quite a bit of analog texture and decay and ambient substance. like a veil is removed. my particular system does not need the highlighting of the tubes, and the extra gear of analog texture and granular detail of the Formula is more like my vinyl.

I could happily live with either. but when I played the GG 512 I missed the Formula.

I expect this question is very system and preference related.
 

spiritofmusic

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Analog texture? Now you're talking our language, Mike
 

Audiophile Bill

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a few days ago I did fire up the GG and play it for awhile compared to the Formula.....both with the SGM.

no doubt that the GG 512/ KR242 is very good. and I can see it's highlighted parts, vocals, macro dynamics, boldness and flow are outstanding. overall very capable and nothing held back. but the Formula does this space thing, and adds quite a bit of analog texture and decay and ambient substance. like a veil is removed. my particular system does not need the highlighting of the tubes, and the extra gear of analog texture and granular detail of the Formula is more like my vinyl.

I could happily live with either. but when I played the GG 512 I missed the Formula.

I expect this question is very system and preference related.

That is cool, Mike. Amazing to get that analogue texture from a digital source never mind one without tubes. How does it compare to your TT now?
 

spiritofmusic

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If I read Mike correctly, the Formula-SGM is getting there
I liken what I hear in Dac8 w SGM as digital and analog converging, but still running different races
SGM really has startling analog-like minimal noise flr, and means I can listen to it w'out missing lps while I'm in the moment
Blue58's stellar setup has managed this
Put on an lp afterwards, and I know why I still prefer analog
But the convergence is there
Now, if the Formula adds another facet of analog-ness, ie micro dynamics, delicacy, decay, and maintains Dac8 verve, all the while w spooky nr zero noise flr that SGM manages, that convergence is even closer
 

caesar

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Nice thread! Does this server converge pcm and dsd? I really enjoy PCM for it's snappiness/ PRAT, with dsd sounding overly smooth to me, especially on Rock and blues.
 

asiufy

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Reading Mike's description, I can kinda attribute that certain "rightness" of the Formula to R2R. It's amazing how every single R2R DAC shares these traits, and no amount of tubes will make up for that.

Of course, good R2R DAC modules are useless without a good analog stage, and apparently the Formula provides just that :)

Color me (extremely) curious to hear the Aqua Formula!

cheers,
alex
 

wisnon

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Reading Mike's description, I can kinda attribute that certain "rightness" of the Formula to R2R. It's amazing how every single R2R DAC shares these traits, and no amount of tubes will make up for that.

Of course, good R2R DAC modules are useless without a good analog stage, and apparently the Formula provides just that :)

Color me (extremely) curious to hear the Aqua Formula!

cheers,
alex

LoL, the Lampizator IS R2R!!! PCM is R2R and DSD is discrete filterbox. I guess you didnt know that.
When using the DSD5123 engine to natively playback DSD128 vinyl rips of classics like St James infirmary, I dont think ANY PCM conversion can compare.

I just heard the Goldmund ultra-dynamic ProLogos Mk2 sound superb on 99% of stuff I threw at it, but when it was fed DSD128 wirelessly (which it converts to PCM24/96), my more modest system was better. The palpability factor was better in chipless DSD...It is a he is here, rather than you are there experience.

I have not heard the Formula, so cant comment....but from expereince, not many Dacs out there do DSD right. MSB does with the Diamond and above, but cost a fortune.
 

spiritofmusic

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The T&A Dac8 is magical at 512 thru the SGM, more average at pcm
It really comes alive
 

wisnon

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The T&A Dac8 is magical at 512 thru the SGM, more average at pcm
It really comes alive

Yes, I know...Bill told me the same.
In any case, the DSD converter in the Dac8 is better than the PCM which is average ready chip solution.

Perhaps you dont have a lot of DSD source material. I have DSD128 rips and tape transfers that are DIVINE played back natively on my chipless DSD engine.
 

caesar

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LoL, the Lampizator IS R2R!!! PCM is R2R and DSD is discrete filterbox. I guess you didnt know that.
When using the DSD5123 engine to natively playback DSD128 vinyl rips of classics like St James infirmary, I dont think ANY PCM conversion can compare.

I just heard the Goldmund ultra-dynamic ProLogos Mk2 sound superb on 99% of stuff I threw at it, but when it was fed DSD128 wirelessly (which it converts to PCM24/96), my more modest system was better. The palpability factor was better in chipless DSD...It is a he is here, rather than you are there experience.

I have not heard the Formula, so cant comment....but from expereince, not many Dacs out there do DSD right. MSB does with the Diamond and above, but cost a fortune.

What does it mean to do "DSD right"? What DACs do it right?
 

wisnon

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What does it mean to do "DSD right"? What DACs do it right?

From my limited experience, only the Lampi and MSB upper range have been convincing. The T+A uses a discrete architecture for DSD, so I expect it to sound good there. The little iFis are quite competent too. There is talk of some Chinese Dacs starting to do a good job, due to implementing discrete solutions for DSD. Also, the Nagra HD I did listen for a session once and it was quite good with DSD.

Chord Hugo and PSA DirectStream (first 3 FWs) were atrocious with DSD. I heard that later FWs of the DStream were better for DSD, but I dont know. No Dac that converts internally to PCM does justice to native DSD, IMO.

Basically, I think its "right" with elaborate discrete filter boxes that dont use brute power trying to process the signal. Miska (Jussi) has a DSD Dac schematic that is in the similar vein and the Phison Dac (Blizzard) is also in this camp. Of course, the actual implemantation of the idea (power supply, etc) will influence the final quality.
 

Barry2013

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Did a compare of Rossini and EMM labs, the latter won. The dealer likes the latter too, and recommended that only the vivaldi after adding the upsampler would beat it

That was a side demo, since I was really there to compare Reed, Feickert firebird, Thales and Pluto TTs, plus idea and Thales arms

Hi Ked
Was the Rossini used solo or with a DCS word clock?
The general consensus seems to be that it needs a clock to be at its best.
 

microstrip

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LoL, the Lampizator IS R2R!!! PCM is R2R and DSD is discrete filterbox. (...)

Can you give us information or a link concerning such PCM R2R implementation?
 

bonzo75

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Hi Ked
Was the Rossini used solo or with a DCS word clock?
The general consensus seems to be that it needs a clock to be at its best.

Hi Sorry, I don't know, will try to find out when we chat next...his opinion was that it takes the Vivaldi with the upsampler to beat it.
 

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