Aqua Formula - settings new levels of R2R sonics and price performance

spiritofmusic · Mar 27, 2017

Interesting to know, Hifial
As a socially-embarrassed computer non-noob (if there is such a thing), stuff like this passes me by, but has also kinda been a reason I have no "feeling" for non physical media
SGM the only device potentially swaying me

wisnon · Mar 27, 2017

Al M. said:
What is BoM and "anal retentiveness" ?

Bill of materials and design perspicacity. LoL

wisnon · Mar 27, 2017

hifial said:
Well in the USA the list on the Formula is $14,000 and the list on the SGM is $16,000 so given the price points of both I do not see your so called point.
Especially as the SGM is totally up-gradable, both hardware and software for many years to come by design.

I personal have no interest in anything that uses the Linux OS. Ones that do force you to live in either a closed system are severely limit your choices. Then there is the compatibility issue that some have with the drivers of some DAC's.

Yes, at one time in the past Linux was a good option. But IMHO W10 optimized properly is the better choice.

AL these OS relative status changes every 6 months or so and imho is not a Unique selling point. The SGM top grade hardware, usability, best in class software and over the top service are the key.

EuroDriver · Mar 27, 2017

astrostar59 said:
My worry with a big investment music server solution, is the unit totally future proof? Can the hardware and software be updated / replaced. Are there regular updates to keep pace with the fast changing digital environment? Or will the company be here in 3 years time?

Chips get changed, architecture altered. You could end up with a slow box that may not be compliant with future platforms and music streaming services, whatever they may be in 3 years time.

There are many options sub 5K, some pre-built, others a kit to install yours and based on Linux or Windows. I have worked in graphics for 30 years, and have seen so many computer based solutions get thrown out and replaced as things progress. And obsolescence is much more rapid in recent years. I would NOT be confident a price tag North of 5K is a good way to go TBH.

Sorry, I don't want to sound negative, and I do appreciate how good these severs may sound, I am simply saying the price bracket is beyond my comfort zone for computer tech.

Hi Astrostar,

Great questions !

Is the unit future proof ? For the next couple of years we think so.

Hardware - CPU has more than enough power than any other server being offered, and is sufficient to handle PCM to DSD 512 upsampling and conversion. The SGM is unlikely to run out of CPU horsepower. It is a industry standard size motherboard inside, so easily swappable should the need ever arise. Power consumption of CPU's per gigaflop is going down all the time, so the power supply capacity is unlikely to be insufficient in the future

Operating system - the Windows 10 modules have a support life till at least 2025 as they are being used in industrial equipment. (Microsoft is still supporting Windows XP for embedded applications

If there is a better sounding OS, there is nothing to stop us installing this new OS

Software - there are significant updates and improvements every couple of months. The SGM is not married to any particular software, as and when a better software appears, we will test it and makes our recommendations to SGM users.

Will the company be around in 3 years ? Well SGM customers are relying on 4 guys we have been audiophiles since their teens. Our ages are mid sixty, mid fifty, mid forty, and late twenty. Supporting a Windows based machine is not that difficult, and we actually enjoy providing support to fellow audiophiles !

There is only so much that can be achieved with a 5K price tag. There is stuff we implement that takes the cost over the 5K and 10 k number, but we can hear the difference, so that's why we put it in. Example, if you overclock a stock i7 6700 K, in a standard hardware environment, it sounds noticeably worse. We over clock the SGM and it sounds better.

The 5 ppb OCXO in place of the 50 ppm standard clock reduces the CPU power consumption by 6 pct. The OCXO + PCB + power supply costs more than the rest of the PC ! Do we as audiophiles enjoy the sound delta the OCXO brings ? Absolutely, and it costs less than our speaker cables !

microstrip · Mar 27, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
(...) but allow us to observe the feedback from dCs Vivaldi transport and CH Precision transports, both $30k+ units which are preferred to files played by those 'uber' systems by many. those both dwarf the SGM-Formula investment......yet are not held up as evidence of the superiority of spinning discs. they are simply data points. (...)

Surely they are data points, but to my personnel knowledge many more than the SGM data points.

As far as I know no one can claim superiority, just that many people who experienced both preferred the spinning CD.

BTW, we can add Metronome's Kalsista/Calypso + DAC to the list. Some analog lovers owning top turntables still prefer the spinning CD on the Metronome to the Vivaldi's more accurate and detailed (in their opinion) presentation.

bonzo75 · Mar 27, 2017

microstrip said:
Surely they are data points, but to my personnel knowledge many more than the SGM data points. As far as I know no one can claim superiority, just that many people who experienced both preferred the spinning CD.

BTW, we can add Metronome's Kalsista/Calypso + DAC to the list. Some analog lovers owning top turntables still prefer the spinning CD on the Metronome to the Vivaldi's more accurate and detailed (in their opinion) presentation.

Their TTs must not be set up right. 4 of us could see the 85k Metronome CD+DAC easily eclipsed by a Kronos Sparta with a 2k Shelter cartridge (not harmony) and Luxman phono. Vivaldi as a transport is not as good as the esoteric. The vivaldi dac gets going only after the upsampler or clock is added, probably.

microstrip · Mar 27, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Their TTs must not be set up right. 4 of us could see the 85k Metronome CD+DAC easily eclipsed by a Kronos Sparta with a 2k Shelter cartridge (not harmony) and Luxman phono. Vivaldi as a transport is not as good as the esoteric. The vivaldi dac gets going only after the upsampler or clock is added, probably.

Ked,

I could say that the system could not play to the extreme needs of the Metronome top CD+DAC ... Fortunately I have listened to such system in adequate conditions and I am able to know how good it can sound, particularly playing complex records. I do not have the ambition to own such systems, but it opened my mind for what it is possible to get from top digital playback equipment. And, no it was not at a show. BTW, four of us just means you four have similar preferences or a collective illusion, nothing else. I care for your opinion and direct opinions of WBF members. IMHO the interesting opinion is when people show some disagreement and expose their arguments. I am somewhat tired with the "killed", "eclipsed" , "annihilated", "wiped out". IMHO such description just shows a large system mismatch and is an interesting subject if debated as such, not as intrinsic properties of formats. Surely YMMV on this subject.

Anyway I was not comparing LP with digital, but two kinds of digital using CD spinners. Please re-read my post.

microstrip · Mar 27, 2017

EuroDriver said:
(...) The 5 ppb OCXO in place of the 50 ppm standard clock reduces the CPU power consumption by 6 pct. (...)

Very interesting. Do you have a technical explanation for it?

spiritofmusic · Mar 27, 2017

I struggled w top Metronome transport and dac combination at KJ in London fronting the UK ML Neoliths launch
It truly reminded me of the dark days of 80s digital replay
No comment on current DCS Vivaldi playback
As a vinyl guy of many years standing but open to the best of digital, I remain truly amazed by the grain- and fatigue-free nature of HQPd digital thru the SGM, and am convinced the nr-zero noise flr of the unit w HQP liquidity contributes to the least cognitive dissonance I've yet heard from a non-analog source
Having met some of the team at Munich, and hearing of Blue58's terrific after sales service, and now of the product's impressive headroom for future proofing, and having good relations w the UK distribr, it chooses itself if I take the plunge to cutting edge digital

microstrip · Mar 27, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
I struggled w top Metronome transport and dac combination at KJ in London fronting the UK ML Neoliths launch
It truly reminded me of the dark days of 80s digital replay (...)

And what could you conclude from that listening? That all top Metronome owners love the 80s digital sound quality?

Al M. · Mar 27, 2017

microstrip said:
I am somewhat tired with the "killed", "eclipsed" , "annihilated", "wiped out". IMHO such description just shows a large system mismatch and is an interesting subject if debated as such, not as intrinsic properties of formats.

+1

sbo6 · Mar 27, 2017

astrostar59 said:
I concur. I came to that result 2 years back when I upgraded my Mac Mini with the Uptone Audio MMK kit and run the HDPlex to feed that. It beat my decent CEC belt drive CDP. I also think there are tons of optimisations that can be performed on the USB feed, but eventually in my case I dropped USB and went AOIP. My thoughts on can a transport still beat a top server (pre-built) solution, I am still unsure. Audio Note have some excellent transports with tube regulated PS and a tube on the SPDIF output. I have heard from buddies who use them that they sound fantastic, but even though I use an Audio Note DAC, I will not go back to spinning CDs.

I share your sentiment WRT not spinning discs. If I can avoid getting up every 10 minutes or so and have thousands of songs at my fingertips that's the way to go (for me). I do have to append my comparison after more thorough listening this past weekend - The Esoteric transport pros - slightly increased depth, slightly better bass clarity and slightly better PRAT. Music server pros - impact, bass heft and added mid range weight. I think it's a toss up but due to the convenience I only spun 1 disc all night...

CKKeung · Mar 27, 2017

Cost-wise, the price of SGMS is in fact lower than many flagship grade CD/SACD transports in the market.

My friends & I did a comparison 2 months ago : SGMS (Skogrand Beethoveen usb cable) vs Metronome Calypso Ref CD transport (Nordost Odin 2 aes digital cable) in the same system of Magico Q7, Trinity DAC, AudioValve Challenger 400 monoblocks & Robert Koda K15 Extreme preamp.
The SGMS won in nearly all aspects, particularly in term of quietness and resolution.

The upgradibility of SGMS is undoubtedly its strongest area.
And so is the HQPlayer software it is using. The new version 3.16 gives obvious sonic improvement.

bonzo75 · Mar 28, 2017

microstrip said:
Ked,

I could say that the system could not play to the extreme needs of the Metronome top CD+DAC ... Fortunately I have listened to such system in adequate conditions and I am able to know how good it can sound, particularly playing complex records. I do not have the ambition to own such systems, but it opened my mind for what it is possible to get from top digital playback equipment. And, no it was not at a show. BTW, four of us just means you four have similar preferences or a collective illusion, nothing else. I care for your opinion and direct opinions of WBF members. IMHO the interesting opinion is when people show some disagreement and expose their arguments. I am somewhat tired with the "killed", "eclipsed" , "annihilated", "wiped out". IMHO such description just shows a large system mismatch and is an interesting subject if debated as such, not as intrinsic properties of formats. Surely YMMV on this subject.

Anyway I was not comparing LP with digital, but two kinds of digital using CD spinners. Please re-read my post.

Actually, we did not have similar preferences. But in this case we had the same experience, and the conclusion was obvious. For example, you and I might have the same preferences regarding Metronome if we have the same experiences - all we know as of now is that we have had different experiences. As I mentioned in another post, I know two Metronome dealers who prefer streamers to the CD player (one of them being the Metronome streamer). If you heard a good Metronome system, it would likely have sounded better with the SGM in it.

EuroDriver · Mar 28, 2017

microstrip said:
Very interesting. Do you have a technical explanation for it?

Hi Microstrip,

Here is a quote from an Intel forum post written by an Intel engineer. The discussion is here

https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/intel-isa-extensions/topic/342980

Cosmic particles, heat, and similar reasons can cause a large variety of possible errors in a complex system like a computer. This ranges from errors in DRAM, the memory controller, QPI links, caches, to the processor core. Some of the errors are correctable, some are uncorrectable. The mechanism to monitor this is the Machine-Check Architecture (MCA). You can find a description of MCA in section 15 in volume 3B of the software developers manual:

http://www.intel.de/content/www/us/en/processors/architectures-software-developer-manuals.html

Error codes are described in Section 15.9.

Depending how important reliability is for you, you can use ECC, DDDC, memory mirroring, QPI in lockstep mode, or even use a complete lockstep system like the systems from NEC or Stratus.

From our measurement of CPU power consumption showing decreasing power consumption with increasing clock stability, it suggests to us that clock stability does affect how often a error code appears and a instruction is repeated

Blue58 · Mar 28, 2017

CKKeung said:
Cost-wise, the price of SGMS is in fact lower than many flagship grade CD/SACD transports in the market..........
The upgradibility of SGMS is undoubtedly its strongest area.
And so is the HQPlayer software it is using. The new version 3.16 gives obvious sonic improvement.

Ed(Eurodriver) updated my SGM yesterday via TeamViewer. The whole process took approx 10min to uninstall, install 3.16 and check settings.
Wonderful service, fantastic upgradeability and yes, another uptick in sound quality. 3.16 brings a more natural and relaxed sound that reveals the heart of a performance.
Mike, if you ain't done it, do it now!

Blue58

Tango · Mar 28, 2017

I have a JMF 3.7 transport playing with the Formula dac+ Linebacker XE . Before this I had Berkeley (version I), Audionet and Soulution top dac playing from Aurender N10 in my system. I would like to say that JMF+Formula+Linebacker XE is better in many aspects and at least equal in the rest. I have never listened toSGMS, but I have heard quite a few top dac, stack or no stack, tube or no tube, with brandname server at my friends. I still cant draw a conclusion that server base digital playback sounds better than transport/ dac. They can sound better in some aspects yes but not without some aspects that my transport/dac/conditioner can also edge over.

CKKeung · Mar 28, 2017

Hi Tango,
Your JMF transport is excellent. I listened to it a few times in Hong Kong.
However it is carried by another dealer here so we are unable to pair it with Aqua Audio Formula.

BTW have you compared the JMF transport against the Aqua Audio La Diva CD transport which can connect to Formula DAC via I2S connection?
Thanks!

spiritofmusic · Mar 28, 2017

The AE crowd are going crazy over the JMF 3.7, and bated breath over the soon to be released Wadax Atlantis transport
Is it too late in the day for a proper comeback on Old School disc spinning
Where's that VHS double bill of Wall Street and Basic Instinct?

bibo01 · Mar 28, 2017

EuroDriver said:
...
From our measurement of CPU power consumption showing decreasing power consumption with increasing clock stability, it suggests to us that clock stability does affect how often a error code appears and a instruction is repeated

Interesting and I have no doubt. I always claimed that PSU it's a place to check for differences between systems by testing consumption, stability and rfi.

Re. computer transport and SGM, I have no doubt in my mind that HQPlayer offers at the moment the best software upsampling/conversion. I started using it since early 2.x version and I have also become a reseller. I measured its modulator PCM>DSD and compared it to all other on-the-fly upsamplers. I have not seen similar test in DSD published anywhere on the net. You can check the results/comparisons here.

In terms of OS, Windows (used by SGM) is very "tweakable", but it's still a closed source OS. Linux can offer further customization. As a matter of fact we at NextHardware are testing a particular, essential version that is actually tailor made to your hardware and software like HQP you run on it - nothing more, nothing less! In terms of DAC support, Linux is getting much better, perhaps not as much as Windows, but it's supporting native DSD more and more.

Aqua Formula - settings new levels of R2R sonics and price performance

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member