Aries 3D with Benz Micro Low Freq oscillations in my JL 113's

Mobiusman

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May 24, 2010
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I just replaced my VPI Prime with one of the last 30 Aries 3D special series with some other unannounced upgrades. I have a Benz Micro LPS set up by Jay at SoundStage Direct. It sits on a Vibraplane 2214 on top of a dedicated Steve Blinn extra wide three shelf rack, with another identical rack for my other components. It is connected to a Pass Phono stage into a Spectral DMC 30SV to a Spectral DMA 30 RS via MIT SHD IC's and MIT HD90 Rev 2 Biwired speaker wires into Vivid G3's and two JL F-113's connected via Analysis Plus Super Sub IC's and Analysis Plus Power 10 Oval PC's (which are better for bass than the MIT's) and I have a problem that for the life of me, I cannot rectify--low frequency severe oscillation in both the JL's and the Vivid's.

Part of my motivation for switching from the Prime to the Aries 3D was to try to tame the same low frequency feedback problem I had with the Prime set up the same way as the Aries 3D.

While I have no bass problems via digital sources and actually get impressively tight and low bass at deafening levels, with analog, I get violent driver oscillation in both channels above moderate volumes when the source is analog. Turning down the ELF settings to their lowest levels, -12, helps a bit and gets me another db or 2 before the onset of oscillation. I do not see any arm oscillations nor any vibrations on the surface of the Vibraplane..

I have tried changing the Vibraplane pressure to see if that makes a difference with absolutely no difference. However, totally shutting off the Vibraplane and using it merely as a very heavy base, makes a major improvement of at least another 6 db before the onset of oscillation and that is with the ELF set to -3 instead of -12.

The tracking force of the LPS is 1.85 grams, which is what SoundStage Direct says works better than the max tracking force of 2 gms for this cartridge/table combo

I am open to any suggestions.

Thanks.
 
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DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Russ, have you tried different loading options for the Benz. IME, a load of about 700+- ohms seems to work best and could well tamp down your bass overload issue. If you have tried varying load options....I have a few other ideas, but that would be my #1 suggestion.
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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I would gather some more data as I suspect the problem is compounded; like removing the Vibraplance first; then testing with both 33 and 45 rpm, and volume level. It feels like acoustic feedback is a likely factor, and/or the typical VPI unipivot arm wobble which can create all sorts of problems; or perhaps the cartridge's suspension is too soft???
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi Russ

Have you cleaned your belt lately? Rumble can happen when the belt gets dust clumped on it.
 

bplexico

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Mar 28, 2011
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Is this happening with your Prime or the Aries?

Where is your turntable located relative to the speakers/Subs? Behind, next two, across the room?

p.s. what were the other unannounced updates you got with your Aries? I ask as I am ordering one as well.
 

Mobiusman

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May 24, 2010
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Is this happening with your Prime or the Aries?

Where is your turntable located relative to the speakers/Subs? Behind, next two, across the room?

p.s. what were the other unannounced updates you got with your Aries? I ask as I am ordering one as well.
Mat and Seth from SoundStage Direct were kind of vague on that front other than to say that before deciding to cease production because the Prime Signature and HRX do not have enough differences to continue with another model in between, VPI was experimenting with improvements to make it more different than a Prime Signature. I think, but am not sure that a number of HRX parts like bearings and leg updates are included. Also I think that there was some difference to the 12" 3D arm compared to previously.

What I will say without hesitation is that the Aries 3D clearly sounds substantially better than the Prime with the same cartridge and cabling.

What I will te
 

bplexico

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2011
56
3
313
Mat and Seth from SoundStage Direct were kind of vague on that front other than to say that before deciding to cease production because the Prime Signature and HRX do not have enough differences to continue with another model in between, VPI was experimenting with improvements to make it more different than a Prime Signature. I think, but am not sure that a number of HRX parts like bearings and leg updates are included. Also I think that there was some difference to the 12" 3D arm compared to previously.

What I will say without hesitation is that the Aries 3D clearly sounds substantially better than the Prime with the same cartridge and cabling.

What I will te

Ah, thanks for sharing, so you got the 12" tonearm with the Aries? I was originally going with the Prime Signature as well, but decided to follow the same path as you.
 

Mobiusman

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Look into the ADS also, which is supposedly better than the SDS, which I loved. I hooked them both up at the same time so I can't comment on it versus the SDS. I do not know if it is the Aries, the 12" arm or both, but the sound difference is substantial compared to the Prime.
 

Mobiusman

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May 24, 2010
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After a day of listening to many hours of a wide range of music, all on high quality pressings, I have a theory about the origin of my low frequency oscillations in my JL F-113's. Before I share my theory, I want to state that I have played with a wide range of pressures on the Vibraplane with essentially no benefit, until took the pressure to 0, with no other changes of any sort, and found that the while the oscillations still occurred, they occurred at substantially higher levels +4-6 db.

With the Vibraplane set at 0 and no changes in the woof settings and placement with the ELF set to -4, I get varied conditions that produce the oscillations at a fixed preamp level that I consider adequate, but not as loud as I would sometimes like. There are albums like BST's The Child Is Father Of The Man, where no cuts produce the oscillations at levels that more than exceed my loudest desires. David Bowie's Legacy was a mix with about half producing the oscillations and the other half none, all at the same preamp setting. Jefferson Starship Tales From The Mother Ship V1, a largely unplugged album, produced no oscillations on any cuts, even at deafening levels. Surrealistic Pillow was a mix, with some oscillating and some not. Parsley Sage Rosemary and Thyme produced no oscillations despite my best efforts.

So here's my theory, at the beginning of each cut that produced oscillations I could hear some very low level low frequency hum/rumble/wow, with the oscillations going away between cuts and not returning if there was no pre-program hum/ rumble/wow on the next cut, but returning if it was present. This finding was 100% consistent with every album I tested, (at least 10).

I eagerly await the feedback and criticisms.
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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I would collect even more data. Like what happens if you tap around the turntable and arm, with all those LPs.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Vibraplanes have natural resonances - frequencies at which they amplify disturbances. Typically 2.3 Hz vertical and 2.9 Hz horizontal, changing a little with load and pressure. As filling with air increases the system sensitivity to oscillations we can expect that the critical frequencies are around these values. Perhaps the lateral resonance of the tonearm is also in this zone and the phenomena is triggered by harmonics of the low frequency due to eccentricity of the LP - the old Eminent Technology had this problem due to its high lateral mass. Does the problem show similar characteristics at 45 rpm?
 

tdh888

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Nov 4, 2010
298
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Philippines
I just replaced my VPI Prime with one of the last 30 Aries 3D special series with some other unannounced upgrades. I have a Benz Micro LPS set up by Jay at SoundStage Direct. It sits on a Vibraplane 2214 on top of a dedicated Steve Blinn extra wide three shelf rack, with another identical rack for my other components. It is connected to a Pass Phono stage into a Spectral DMC 30SV to a Spectral DMA 30 RS via MIT SHD IC's and MIT HD90 Rev 2 Biwired speaker wires into Vivid G3's and two JL F-113's connected via Analysis Plus Super Sub IC's and Analysis Plus Power 10 Oval PC's (which are better for bass than the MIT's) and I have a problem that for the life of me, I cannot rectify--low frequency severe oscillation in both the JL's and the Vivid's.

Part of my motivation for switching from the Prime to the Aries 3D was to try to tame the same low frequency feedback problem I had with the Prime set up the same way as the Aries 3D.

While I have no bass problems via digital sources and actually get impressively tight and low bass at deafening levels, with analog, I get violent driver oscillation in both channels above moderate volumes when the source is analog. Turning down the ELF settings to their lowest levels, -12, helps a bit and gets me another db or 2 before the onset of oscillation. I do not see any arm oscillations nor any vibrations on the surface of the Vibraplane..

I have tried changing the Vibraplane pressure to see if that makes a difference with absolutely no difference. However, totally shutting off the Vibraplane and using it merely as a very heavy base, makes a major improvement of at least another 6 db before the onset of oscillation and that is with the ELF set to -3 instead of -12.

The tracking force of the LPS is 1.85 grams, which is what SoundStage Direct says works better than the max tracking force of 2 gms for this cartridge/table combo

I am open to any suggestions.

Thanks.

This might be off topic but I was wondering if your using a Periphery Ring clamp? Because in my VPI it helps a lot specially w/ the HR-X w/c has a 12.7 JMW Tonearm. But there is a downside it seems w/ my Benz Micro Gullwing SLR in my TNT 6 , because of the strong magnet of the cartridge there is a tendency when you cue the stylus near the ring , there is a tendency for it to stick to the ring w/c might damage the stylus. This problem is unique only in the to the Gullwing, LPS and the Ruby series. If only your preamp has a low filter switch to prevent the oscillation but non of the phonostages and linestages have this feature now a day. Do you have oscillations when the subwoofers are not in use?

Tdh888
 

Mobiusman

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May 24, 2010
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A couple of months ago I started this thread complaining about a low frequency oscillation in my Vivid G3's and my JL F-113's when playing records at moderate volumes, but ostensibly absent at low volumes, almost regardless of content. This problem only occurred with analog play back. The turntable was a VPI Prime with the 3D arm and a Benz Micro LPS cartridge, with a Pass phono stage and a VPI SDS. I bought a Vibraplane with zero benefit. I tried moving the analog rack to see if it was a standing wave or floor vibration. I then worked with Steve Blinn to design two identical super triple wide 3 shelf racks with very heavy butcher block 3" maple shelves on sorbothane isolators. One rack was for my electronics and has a 70" SUHD Samsung on the top shelf, both for viewing pleasure and to hopefully interrupt any longitudinal standing waves. The second rack is my analog rack which is aligned directly behind the equipment rack. It holds my turntable formerly the Prime and now an Aries 3D with a 12" 3D arm, and the LPS on a Vibraplane, and a VPI ADS instead of the SDS AND 63" of 180-200gm records, plus a Shunyata Triton and Typhon. To say the least this rack and its components are extremely heavy, possibly close to 1000 pounds.

Unfortunately, there was no reduction in the oscillations other than I could go an additional db or two before they began. After investing many thousands in my analog efforts I was totally bummed because I could not obtain the levels I desired and because I was always fearful that the oscillations would start at any time. Years ago I sold an otherwise excellent pair of speakers, Dunlavy SCV's, for the same reason except I was afraid of blowing drivers. Bottom line with both the Dunlavy's and my current analog problems, the fun quickly eroded to the point that I barely listened. This however did not keep me from continuing to order many costly records that I would not play until I solve the analog problems.

Marty, my long time best friend, co audio addict and chief audio critic, eventually refused to come to listen until I treated my listening room with RPG panels to try to control resonances. Unfortunately I have been so busy and uninspired about listening due to the analog problems, I put this off for at least 9 months, but continued to buy records that I was not even opening.

Although I believe in room interactions to the point that I worked with an acoustic engineer to build a totally dedicated listening room using LEDE design in reverse in my marital household. Unfortunately, my room went the path of my marriage and I never returned to music with my previous enthusiasm.

Yesterday, I finally had time to make another attempt at solving my analog problems with some of my old determination and patience. The first thing I did was turn off the subs and voila the oscillations were gone. Even though I have spent hours working with the JL controls and woofer positioning I took Marty's advice and used the JL ARO DSP system, something I had never used before in my current set up with side firing Vivid woofs and front facing JL's, a physics conundrum, for some arrogant reason, despite spending hours trying to optimize the overall sound, especially the bass.

Even though I followed the JL instructions exactly, it was not a simple effort, probably because of the interactions with the Vivid woofs, despite being turned off. After about 15 subtle changes with output level on each JL separately, I finally got both of them to find an acceptable setting. When I first tried listening to the Fairfield Four on CD, the difference was already obvious with the basso much more believable, but periodically overloading the woofs, something not easy to do. I turned down the master volume until the overload stopped and then moved to the real test, analog.

The first analog cut was a sentimental favorite, Prince's Purple Rain, because of my first daughter's love of the music when 5 and danced around the room, although a nothing special recording. I happen to have a 200 gm copy and proceeded with the ceremony. I was able to play the record much louder than ever before, but still had some oscillation a fairly high levels. I reduced the master volume a bit with little or no benefit and then tried reducing the ELF (extreme low frequency) to its lowest setting, something that made little difference before. This time dropping the ELF solved the problem and now I can play records as loud as I desire. Not surprisingly, the bass is also more realistic.

Tomorrow I call RPG for the long overdue panels.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Russ, what you are describing is now more obvious to me.... you have/had a clear case of your subs overloading your room. What size is your room? Matching a sub to one's listening space is crucial, because with a mis-match the ability to overload the room becomes more likely. I would suggest removing your subs altogether, and attempting to see if you can place your Vivid's in a space that will lock them in as to the bass response. If you feel that once you have done that, that they are still lacking in the bass dept, ( although I happen to think Vivid's are VERY able in their ability to reproduce good clean bass); then I would investigate a much smaller sub than what you currently are using. Probably something using a single 10" driver...max. The RPG panel will help, to some extent with the bass bloat...but since you are overloading the room, I doubt they will ameliorate the problem entirely! Better solution is to carefully match the speakers ( and if necessary the subs as well) to your room size and dimensions, IMHO.

BTW, I am actually not a huge fan of DSP...beacause IF the room is getting overloaded by your sub/speaker at the lower volumes it will simply apply a band-aid and will not truly solve the problem. Far better to solve the speaker/sub/room interaction with the correct match of gear to room in the first place...again IMHO.
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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It is still curious to me that the woofers don't go wild with the digital system. For me that rules out the overload theory and points to a signal problem. It's too bad that rumble filters are no longer in vogue it would be the fastest way to see if rumble is indeed the root of the problem. If it is then yes the quickest and most painless is a rumble filter. If the problem is the belt, there are options there too. If it is the record platter interface then fixes may include mats and clamps. Then there's compliance and arm resonance issues from rare but possible mismatches between the two. I asked about the belt because tubular belts in humid environments often build stuff up on them and cause rumble albeit effects are more pronounced on lower mass platters which this VPI does not have. I thought to mention that first because cleaning belts is a cost free thing to look at and fix if need be. Something one should be doing with some regularity anyway. My point is that it isn't always about feedback into the turntable. Many times rumble begins at the turntable and if it were me, that would be the first place I would concentrate on before I pull my checkbook out.
 

Bso

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Sep 30, 2016
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It is still curious to me that the woofers don't go wild with the digital system.

Why? In this case it is an analog issue. It called cartridge/tonearm resonance below 20 Hz. The ideal resonance is in the 7-10 Hz level. The lower the resonance the better. There are standard graphs of such resonance having to do with cartridge weight, compliance, and tonearm effective mass so one can put together an ideal combination. Since these days most manufacturers of such expensive gear don't measure or specify such things, the consumer is left guessing. The propensity of audiophiles to keep their turntables in the same room as their speakers and even between the speakers (unless you have true dipoles) aggravates the issue.

"It's too bad that rumble filters are no longer in vogue it would be the fastest way to see if rumble is indeed the root of the problem." Rumble filter is a catch all phrase for an excessive low frequency resonance that has more to do with the arm and cartridge not that of the platter/bearing although that can make things worse.

"If it is then yes the quickest and most painless is a rumble filter."

It's a quick fix I agree but not a fundamental one. You'll have mistracking and so on that a rumble filter won't solve. It is a shame only equipment like Accuphase still has it but it is best to solve the problem with correct matching of tonearm and cartridge

"Then there's compliance and arm resonance issues from rare but possible mismatches between the two. "

I think they are more common than people think. Dynamic woofers are waiting to be unmasked.

Analog has rebounded but the old science of disk analog reproduction, etc. from the 70s and 80s has fallen by the wayside. You have idiots writing about how wonderful cartridges are that rolloff starting at 5kHz because they are made of jade and cost zillions with secret lacquers from some gone zen master damping resonances but hovering cash. Who measures cartridge arm resonances anymore except in frequency not frequency and magnitude. It's a pity the Townshend Rock damper trough table is no longer being made. But even then you have to get the basic arm/cartridge resonance correct. And put the darn table in another room.

Didn't mean to come down on you JACKD201 but ask your friends at TECHDas. Since their record payers are a system I'm sure they take these things into account - at least I hope so.
 
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