Questions for all digital setup owners that don't have a dedicated pre amp in their system

Mdp632 · Dec 26, 2016

Hello All,

I'm considering going to a simple all digital digital system. My goal and hope is to use a DAC to drive the amplifier(s). Without going into what DAC and or Amplifiers to audition/purchase. Generally speaking has anyone here done the same and been happy in the long term? Or did you end up adding a pre amp to your system after all? In addition, what "technical" considerations do I need to keep in my when pursuing this option. Or is just a matter of subjective trial and error? Finding the DAC(with pre amp function)and amplifier that sounds the best to me?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thanks and Happy Holidays to you.

joeinid · Dec 26, 2016

I always prefer a preamp in the chain. That's my opinion. DAC direct, in my opinion, seems great at first, but over the long term the perceived added detail and cleaner, seemingly more open sound stage gets tiring. If you have a DAC good enough, there is no harm in trying it, but I love what a preamp does to the sound, especially a good/great preamp.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 26, 2016

joeinid said:
I always prefer a preamp in the chain. That's my opinion. DAC direct, in my opinion, seems great at first, but over the long term the perceived added detail and cleaner, seemingly more open sound stage gets tiring. If you have a DAC good enough, there is no harm in trying it, but I love what a preamp does to the sound, especially a good/great preamp.

I think as system refinement climbs over time, what a first rate preamp does becomes more significant.

at moderate levels of system performance where cables and other parts of the signal path are relatively compromised, removing them yields a net gain of going direct. but fix those restrictions and the better preamps just allow for more music to come through.

everything matters, both positive and negative.

microstrip · Dec 26, 2016

joeinid said:
I always prefer a preamp in the chain. That's my opinion. DAC direct, in my opinion, seems great at first, but over the long term the perceived added detail and cleaner, seemingly more open sound stage gets tiring. If you have a DAC good enough, there is no harm in trying it, but I love what a preamp does to the sound, especially a good/great preamp.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. I was having great hope in the Vivaldi DAC as it has high drive capability, very low output impedance and remote switchable 6, 2, .6 or .2V output level, but I am always finding that the preamplifier improves the sound. So far I have tried DartZeel , ARC, and cj (tube and solid state) equipment.

mullard88 · Dec 26, 2016

Hi Mdp632,

I have such a system. Three weeks ago, an MB signature sc was installed. I think I will be happy with this set-up over the long term.

RogerD · Dec 26, 2016

Give it a try without,but in my experience a great preamp adds a vitality and the necessary punch to music. Also a degree of realism that only a preamp can.

Mdp632 · Dec 26, 2016

Thanks everyone. What should I pay attention to in pairing a DAC and Amplifier. In specific, output impedance of the DAC and relative to the input of the amplifier. How important is this and what should I be looking for?

JackD201 · Dec 27, 2016

Mdp632 said:
Thanks everyone. What should I pay attention to in pairing a DAC and Amplifier. In specific, output impedance of the DAC and relative to the input of the amplifier. How important is this and what should I be looking for?

Impedance is debatably important for choosing equipment layout (cable length). I think one should also look at the DAC's output voltage vis-a-vis the amplifier's input sensitivity. If the output is say 2V and the Input sensitivity is over that you'll never get to full power. Seems a waste not to take full advantage of the dynamic range potential.

microstrip · Dec 27, 2016

JackD201 said:
Impedance is debatably important for choosing equipment layout (cable length). I think one should also look at the DAC's output voltage vis-a-vis the amplifier's input sensitivity. If the output is say 2V and the Input sensitivity is over that you'll never get to full power. Seems a waste not to take full advantage of the dynamic range potential.

Matching a DAC directly to an amplifier needs careful planing. We need to consider the amplifier gain, the efficiency of the speakers and the room gain.

The key is having maximum output voltage high enough as you say, but not more. Most DACs control volume digitally and when you decrease volume you are loosing resolution. The sound levels in recordings vary a lot - for example, in order to listen to Harmonia Mundi "La Folia" I had to use a high output setting.

microstrip · Dec 27, 2016

Mdp632 said:
Thanks everyone. What should I pay attention to in pairing a DAC and Amplifier. In specific, output impedance of the DAC and relative to the input of the amplifier. How important is this and what should I be looking for?

It is not only a question of impedance ratios - it is also related do the topology of the output stage and the capability of supplying signal current without changes in sound quality. We have examples of excellent sounding systems having equal input and output impedance (the 600 ohm professional, also used in consumer electronics) and driving a 1 megaohm input with a 100 ohm output impedance.

EuroDriver · Dec 27, 2016

on the Sound Galleries Music team, we own a Bespoke TVC, and I have heard the Bespoke TVC in 4 different systems with different DAC's. In each system the Bespoke has delivered positive improvement in tonal density with no loss of transparency.

It's expensive for a passive TVC, but it's performance puts many well regarded active preamps to shame. The Bespoke delivers very good performance for the price IMHO

Gregadd · Dec 27, 2016

I used a Accuphase cd player straight into an amp. Volume control was done by varying the output control of the cd player. The problem should be obvious
Adding a line stage was a significant improvement.

JackD201 · Dec 27, 2016

Gregadd said:
I used a Accuphase cd player straight into an amp. Volume control was done by varying the output control of the cd player. The problem should be obvious
Adding a line stage was a significant improvement.

I had a DP78 for years. I think you can spy it in my older system threads. You and I have the same conclusions.

Ken Newton · Dec 28, 2016

Gregadd said:
...Volume control was done by varying the output control of the cd player. The problem should be obvious
Adding a line stage was a significant improvement.

What problem should be obvious?

Believe High Fidelity · Jan 3, 2017

joeinid said:
I always prefer a preamp in the chain. That's my opinion. DAC direct, in my opinion, seems great at first, but over the long term the perceived added detail and cleaner, seemingly more open sound stage gets tiring. If you have a DAC good enough, there is no harm in trying it, but I love what a preamp does to the sound, especially a good/great preamp.

+1

This is a must. The idea of the best pre being no pre is all in theory.

There are so very few designers that are looking to build an incredibly robust stage into the DAC. Even if you get a very high output cd player or DAC that has enough voltage to drive the amplifier just solves the issue of the full bandwidth out of the amplifier. It doesn't ever guarantee that the sound quality of that output is going to be better than a stand alone pre and almost never is.

Microstrips point of careful planning is very good advice, but in 90% of the cases a pre is always a good thing.

Although if you are looking to have a DAC with enough voltage and output design to drive your systems without a pre I would recommend taking a look at the Kassandra DAC

Aries Cerat Kassandra MKii

At 120lbs, it not only has the voltage to drive any amplifier without a preamp, but its analog stage is designed to surpass any on the market.

pkane · Jan 6, 2017

Mdp632 said:
I'm considering going to a simple all digital digital system. My goal and hope is to use a DAC to drive the amplifier(s). Without going into what DAC and or Amplifiers to audition/purchase. Generally speaking has anyone here done the same and been happy in the long term? Or did you end up adding a pre amp to your system after all? In addition, what "technical" considerations do I need to keep in my when pursuing this option. Or is just a matter of subjective trial and error? Finding the DAC(with pre amp function)and amplifier that sounds the best to me?

Seems like I may be the only one here, but I much prefer a well-designed DAC with a properly implemented volume control going directly into the power amp. I've spent many years fine tuning systems, trying out all sorts of preamps, including tube, etc. My experience has been that a preamp nearly always adds something to the signal. The result is often less transparent, less airy, sometimes with colorations.

I just finished putting together a system out of old components I had on-hand, using Camelot Technology Uther 2.0 DAC feeding directly into Pass Aleph 1.2 mono blocks. With Uther passive, analog-domain volume control the system is simply delicious

! Sound stage, airiness and transparency are incredible for a bunch of components that are nearly 20 years old.

Sometimes a preamp can help compensate for issues in the rest of the system, such as impedance mismatch, grounding issues, or deficiencies in frequency response. Absent these, a direct DAC to amp connection is a much simpler (and less costly) solution that does not introduce additional components into the signal path. At least that's what I've found

-Paul

joeinid · Jan 7, 2017

So in the end, try your system with and without a preamp. Then decide what you like better. It's obvious to me that I prefer a preamp, especially a great one. Heck, I'd take a nice passive preamp (like my Wyred STP-SE) to no preamp at all. All that matters is that you love what you hear from your own system.

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Questions for all digital setup owners that don't have a dedicated pre amp in their system

Mdp632

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joeinid

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Mike Lavigne

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microstrip

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mullard88

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RogerD

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Mdp632

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JackD201

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microstrip

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microstrip

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EuroDriver

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Gregadd

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JackD201

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Ken Newton

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Believe High Fidelity

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pkane

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joeinid

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