Advancers in speaker design

morricab said:

Interesting and I would generally agree. It is funny but I sought out a subwoofer that specifically did not use a class d amp and it sounds more natural to me overall.

My back horn loaded Odeons use a light fast paper cone and is fast and tight but with a very natural flow.

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Just like anything, it's about implementation and once you hear a top quality modern woofer like AE TD15H+ it becomes very difficult to go back to the colored, warm sounding vintage type drivers. The difference in measurable distortion is pretty large too, and a high quality D-amp can control the woofers better than transistor amps. It takes some getting used to because most have never heard bass that clean... but done properly it's spectacular.

The key is the modern woofer has a much stiffer cone, much less inductance in the motor and much stronger motors. The cone is heavier but not overboard like a subwoofer and the massive increase in motor strength more than makes up for it. It has potential to sound faster and cleaner than any vintage setup short of a massive bass horn or a dozen drivers per side.

Gregadd said:

I concede advances in materials and computer analysis has produced better speakers at all levels. The problem is what true discoveries have been made? It is hardly noteworthy that a particular company stumbled on what they should have known and incorporated into their product before offering it to the public. Is it a true technological advance or just a little on the job training?
For example going to concerts and talking to conductors. Should you not have been doing that all along?

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In terms of actual transducer technology there has been nothing really new for quite some time. Even plasma as a driver is 19th century technology. Some of the bending wave products (like the Walsh driver) I think are newish but still like 50 years old.

Electrostats only became practical in the 1950s when thin plastic sheets became available. Still not really new.

Dynamic drivers have benefitted in some ways...and suffered in others. Pistonic behavior became the overriding goal and sensitivity and out of band behavior suffered as a result.

Ribbons are perhaps poised for a breakthrough with high energy rare earth magnets but few have taken advantage of this because big flat panels are kind of out of fashion. One could get over 95db/watt from big ribbons and planars with Nd magnets.

DaveC said:

Just like anything, it's about implementation and once you hear a top quality modern woofer like AE TD15H+ it becomes very difficult to go back to the colored, warm sounding vintage type drivers. The difference in measurable distortion is pretty large too, and a high quality D-amp can control the woofers better than transistor amps. It takes some getting used to because most have never heard bass that clean... but done properly it's spectacular.

The key is the modern woofer has a much stiffer cone, much less inductance in the motor and much stronger motors. The cone is heavier but not overboard like a subwoofer and the massive increase in motor strength more than makes up for it. It has potential to sound faster and cleaner than any vintage setup short of a massive bass horn or a dozen drivers per side.

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Agree generally but with the horn loading the excursion of driver drops to nearly nothing and distortion and coloration drop accordingly.

Gregadd said:

The question is why should I or consumers in general be interested in a manufacturers/designers learnin curve? I novations,inventions and discoveries aside.. As a professional should they not avail themselves of the existing knowledge necessary to produce a competent product?

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They can't avail themselves of tech that is patented right? The really good stuff is patent protected so it is back on you the consumer to do your shopping.

To me there Are advances but First and foremost in the housing ive listened to mdf reenforced mdf for years , the advance modern Composites bring is staggering unless you see a ls housing as a musical instrument itself meaning IT needs to vibrate.
And create distortion
The 40 mm hpl that i Listen to these days give a Zen like ease to the whole Sound Experience Ready to explode with Dynamics if asked for .
Why you Think all those top manufacturers spend so much Design and money on the housing.
A crescendo in music Will have much less impact if played through a lesser quality housing .
Its simple all the Energy Lost in housingvibration is loss of Dynamics. Wilson was one of the First to understand that

I agree that there haven't been any technological breakthroughs in speaker design in many years, however there have been breakthroughs in manufacturing technology/capability allowing materials like beryllium, diamond, carbon fiber, kevlar, etc to be used in driver and cabinet design for the masses.

Also, (I think someone already stated this, so sorry if so) it's very likely that there is no technology to be discovered that will be the end - all. It's all about expectations, how real is real? What is "real" when we listen to a recorded event through a handful of transducers in a different environment at a different listening distance?

Beryllium reminds me of Yamaha NS-1000, a still highly regarded speaker from 70s. A rather recent material considering all other materials used today in speaker industry.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-NS-1000.html
Stuff like carbon fibers "have been around" since 1860
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fibers

MPS said:

Beryllium reminds me of Yamaha NS-1000, a still highly regarded speaker from 70s. A rather recent material considering all other materials used today in speaker industry.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-NS-1000.html
Stuff like carbon fibers "have been around" since 1860
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fibers

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True MPS, but for beryllium for example, the mfr. technology to reproduce at a reasonable cost with high yields and high quantity is what's new.

Very true, I see biggest development in "budget" mass production as material technology as CAD progress makes it possible to increase quality of even cheapest of the production.

Common paper cone is actually quite amazingly "optimal" for it's purpose, self damping, cost effective, easy to construct various shapes etc. I remember one engineer stating that he was sad to see end of production of a certain driver, it was so designed the effective size of the cone got smaller as frequency went up, all due to cone material build-in loss. Think this as multiple drivers build in one and wonderfully self adjusting frequency independent directivity. Such things don't automatically show up on speaker specification, listening to it will proof if it makes a meaningful difference.

It's always easier to sell "new", "improved", "expensive" materials but what really counts is how you take advantage of the material and components used. I'm not saying that there is no real advantage in recent speaker development, just saying one should not look down on best of past. Just think of Quad ESL-57 (from 1957 @ £52), isn't it still considered up there in reference class when it comes to mid range?

Speaker drivers made of Zylon might be the future very soon! I can't wait to hear the new Yamaha NS 5000's with all Zylon speaker drivers! The speakers that some reviewers said sounded better than the Magico M3's and other very high-end speakers too at the Tokyo International Audio Show 2016!

sbo6 said:

True MPS, but for beryllium for example, the mfr. technology to reproduce at a reasonable cost with high yields and high quantity is what's new.

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Not sure about reasonable cost, CD diaphragms or Be dome tweets tend to be $500 each. I think a lot of that is unreasonable markup but it's expensive. Be is good but not perfect, it doesn't keep a metal dome tweeter from sounding like a metal dome tweeter...

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I agree on andromeda's cabinet material post, but otoh I've heard cabs designed with relatively common and cheap materials including MDF sound exceptionally good as well, even designs that were intended to sing along with the music can sound really good. Personally, not my style but I think there are many ways to skin the cat and better materials than mdf have been around pretty much forever. I still think it's a decent material, especially combined with plywood, and especially for mid-priced and lower speakers as fancy cab materials are only really worth it for more expensive speakers, otherwise there are more effective ways to spend the budget.

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At an overall, high-level perspective... maybe only considering overall sound quality of the best SOTA systems at the time, I don't things have advanced much, if at all. SET amps and horns are, imo, better than cones 'n domes, better than panels of any sort and better than kludges like the Beolab 90. I concede I don't have room for a 5-way horn so I go modern on the bass but I'd prefer bass horn + mid-bass horn instead of a modern woofer. Or a dozen 15s per side slot-loaded. And, digital hasn't quite caught up with reel to reel yet, arguably vinyl either. I'd even argue you probably had a better chance of achieving good results in the time period before transistors were in widespread use vs today. Modern HiFi can gear can easily cause listening fatigue... a fatiguing system is pretty much useless.

• http://au.yamaha.com/en/news_events/audio-visual/ns5000show/
• http://culturehd.com/yamaha-ns-5000-la-legende_11007 ? Use your browser's Translation feature, from your toolbar.

DaveC said:

Not sure about reasonable cost, CD diaphragms or Be dome tweets tend to be $500 each. I think a lot of that is unreasonable markup but it's expensive. Be is good but not perfect, it doesn't keep a metal dome tweeter from sounding like a metal dome tweeter... .

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The reasonable cost of the BE driver is realized at the designer/mfr, not the consumer ;-)