The Future

Ken Newton

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2012
243
2
95
As a kid I loved watching Sci-Fi, heck I still do. Well, Space 1999 came and went and while there are still no moon bases, I did party the way the late great Prince commanded. With 2017 closing in and no underwater bases ala Sea Lab 2020, it got me thinking....audio wise, where do I want to be by or before 2020? You know what they say, it NEVER ENDS! Well dreaming is free. What would you dream of doing? Here's mine...

Your component list, as drool worthy as it certainly is, is really a Christmas wish list rather than a dream of an audiophile future that's in the mold of Space 1999 or Sea Lab 2020. (I would add the Jetson's flying saucer cars in to that list of future advancements that have yet to come, if ever.)

As far as audiophile future visions go, the holy grail, it seems to me, is for absolute audio verisimilitude. Imagine that you were blindfolded and taken to some other physical location and seated. While still blindfolded, you hear music begin to play. At that moment, you believe that you are in a concert hall or other public venue listening to a live performance. After enjoying the performance a long while you remove the blindfold to discover that you have been listening to a reproduction in a domestic sized room. An completely convincing auditory illusion that's perceptually indistinguishable from reality. Is that even possible in a future along established technology paths?

History shows that once some desirable objective has been imagined, humanity usually makes progress toward it. However, progress does not mean that an ultimate objective will necessarily be achieved along some initially established technology path. Sometimes, an entirely different path must be taken. Perhaps, a completely convincing audio illusion will require some entirely different approach as well. None of that is to suggest that musical enjoyment isn't provided by today's equipment, it often is. However, there's a special pleasure in hearing what sounds like live music. That music doesn't even have to be enjoyable in itself. The perception of reality is it's own special excitement for the nervous system. That seems true for animals as well. My pet cat is rarely roused by sounds produced either my home theater or my music system. He instantly knows, however, the difference in character made by live sounds and responds accordingly.

As of now, it feels to me like current audio technologies on are a path of diminishing returns that may never fully realize the desired objective of a totally convincing illusion of live. The cost of some home systems today could purchase all the instruments utilized by symphony orchestra. An indication to me that our current home component technology path may not be capable of delivering a fully convincing illusion. I admit to having heard excellent systems which made an instrument or two sound momentarily convincing, but, certainly not all instruments, nor all the time. Perhaps, some future home system based on the advancement of current technology will sound totally convincing, but at what cost? If pricing of today's best components is any indication it will be in the millions of dollars.
 
Last edited:

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
11,662
4,410
Wouldn't DSD to DXD be a downsample? This doesn't make sense???

well......no.....DSD to DXD is not a down sample. and yes, it makes sense to get the best sounding dac and then feed everything through that.

32/24 multibit, 352/384khz compared to 11.2 million single bits (Quad dsd) is not that different. and most Quad files start out as dxd masters anyway; so that is the max data level.

if I had to choose between native dxd and native Quad dsd I would choose dxd based on what I have heard with multiple players. but I'd say I don't have enough data points to be definitive with that assessment.

the question becomes which way, done as well as it can be done, sounds better. or whether one needs to try and do both natively. but this is not a matter of one way having any clear data advantage. it might even turn out that a product like HQ Player fixing the data stream is more significant than the dac, or maybe equal. it's what I'm trying to figure out.

I do not profess to have all the answers at this point.....hence my quandary.
 
Last edited:

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
Move up finally from MB Signature to MB Ultra
Switch to the star grounded MB Distribution interfaces using MB busses. Oops am I suppose to divulge that these are already in the works?

No your fine lol. Just not sure what the release dates will be. Looks like they will have two different models both with Ultra internal wiring.
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
As of now, it feels to me like current audio technologies on are a path of diminishing returns that may never fully realize the desired objective of a totally convincing illusion of live. The cost of some home systems today could purchase all the instruments utilized by symphony orchestra. An indication to me that our current home component technology path may not be capable of delivering a fully convincing illusion. I admit to having heard excellent systems which made an instrument or two sound momentarily convincing, but, certainly not all instruments, nor all the time. Perhaps, some future home system based on the advancement of current technology will sound totally convincing, but at what cost? If pricing of today's best components is any indication it will be in the millions of dollars.

This has been accomplished. But your right about it costing a very large sum of money. As a matter of fact, I just sat about 8 rows back at a Cat Stevens performance a few weeks ago lol.
 

Ken Newton

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2012
243
2
95
This has been accomplished...

Leif, that is quite a bold statement. Would you provide the technical details of the system to which you refer? The brand and model of the components? Was it analog, or digital or both? What was the listening room like? What type of music was utilized?

Thanks
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Leif, that is quite a bold statement. Would you provide the technical details of the system to which you refer? The brand and model of the components? Was it analog, or digital or both? What was the listening room like? What type of music was utilized?

Thanks
I'm guessing that Leif is referring to Jimmy's system in Manila. IMO it is the greatest system I have ever heard anywhere in the world

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...mazing-Systems&p=407940&viewfull=1#post407940
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
Leif, that is quite a bold statement. Would you provide the technical details of the system to which you refer? The brand and model of the components? Was it analog, or digital or both? What was the listening room like? What type of music was utilized?

Thanks

Hi Ken,

He had both analog and digital. I have "NEVER" heard digital like this before. But the analog was of course the best lol.
I'm still in disbelief myself and processing what I experienced. I will be adding to Steve William's thread "One Amigo's visit" over the next few days and talk about some of the people I met and their wonderful systems. The sad part is, only a few people will most likely experience this system:(
20161203_154240_resized.jpg
20161203_184418_resized.jpg
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,463
2,818
1,400
Amsterdam holland
Wow , nice system ;)

Does he run the wavac on the main tower or the vac , if i see it good , or are there some VTL s in the back ground , the woofertowers in the VS have their own amp ??
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
So I am correct in assuming it is Jimmy's system. And yes how sad that only very few people will ever hear this system

Haha...................

I'm still blown away at what I heard at your house the other day
 

Kingsrule

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2011
1,441
704
1,430
well......no.....DSD to DXD is not a down sample. and yes, it makes sense to get the best sounding dac and then feed everything through that.

32/24 multibit, 352/384khz compared to 11.2 million single bits (Quad dsd) is not that different. and most Quad files start out as dxd masters anyway; so that is the max data level.

if I had to choose between native dxd and native Quad dsd I would choose dxd based on what I have heard with multiple players. but I'd say I don't have enough data points to be definitive with that assessment.

the question becomes which way, done as well as it can be done, sounds better. or whether one needs to try and do both natively. but this is not a matter of one way having any clear data advantage. it might even turn out that a product like HQ Player fixing the data stream is more significant than the dac, or maybe equal. it's what I'm trying to figure out.

I do not profess to have all the answers at this point.....hence my quandary.

They are different and DSD to DXD is downsampled no matter what the original format was.. that doesn't mean or imply how downsampled DSD would sound. One has nothing to do with the other. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.....
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
Leif, that's quite an impressive looking system. Thanks, for the details.

Hi Ken,

It was awesome. Everything from the ground up was taken into consideration for optimum performance. I'm not joking when I say that system caught every aspect of a live performance. I can only dream to have a system like that. I'm not a very good writer but I will do my best to share my visit to these systems.
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
Wow , nice system ;)

Does he run the wavac on the main tower or the vac , if i see it good , or are there some VTL s in the back ground , the woofertowers in the VS have their own amp ??

The VAC's are running the mid/tweets with the VTL's running the bass drivers. The sub towers have 4- 1000 watt amps(one for each sub driver) with controls for volume,xover frequency, and phase control on each amp.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
319
565
BiggestLittleCity
This has been accomplished. But your right about it costing a very large sum of money. As a matter of fact, I just sat about 8 rows back at a Cat Stevens performance a few weeks ago lol.

Your component list, as drool worthy as it certainly is, is really a Christmas wish list rather than a dream of an audiophile future that's in the mold of Space 1999 or Sea Lab 2020. (I would add the Jetson's flying saucer cars in to that list of future advancements that have yet to come, if ever.)

As far as audiophile future visions go, the holy grail, it seems to me, is for absolute audio verisimilitude. Imagine that you were blindfolded and taken to some other physical location and seated. While still blindfolded, you hear music begin to play. At that moment, you believe that you are in a concert hall or other public venue listening to a live performance. After enjoying the performance a long while you remove the blindfold to discover that you have been listening to a reproduction in a domestic sized room. An completely convincing auditory illusion that's perceptually indistinguishable from reality. Is that even possible in a future along established technology paths?

History shows that once some desirable objective has been imagined, humanity usually makes progress toward it. However, progress does not mean that an ultimate objective will necessarily be achieved along some initially established technology path. Sometimes, an entirely different path must be taken. Perhaps, a completely convincing audio illusion will require some entirely different approach as well. None of that is to suggest that musical enjoyment isn't provided by today's equipment, it often is. However, there's a special pleasure in hearing what sounds like live music. That music doesn't even have to be enjoyable in itself. The perception of reality is it's own special excitement for the nervous system. That seems true for animals as well. My pet cat is rarely roused by sounds produced either my home theater or my music system. He instantly knows, however, the difference in character made by live sounds and responds accordingly.

As of now, it feels to me like current audio technologies on are a path of diminishing returns that may never fully realize the desired objective of a totally convincing illusion of live. The cost of some home systems today could purchase all the instruments utilized by symphony orchestra. An indication to me that our current home component technology path may not be capable of delivering a fully convincing illusion. I admit to having heard excellent systems which made an instrument or two sound momentarily convincing, but, certainly not all instruments, nor all the time. Perhaps, some future home system based on the advancement of current technology will sound totally convincing, but at what cost? If pricing of today's best components is any indication it will be in the millions of dollars.

I would disagree to some extent, Noise removal can take any system way beyond what most listen to normally. I think it is a shame that such a simple technology costs so much. But given the high end market,that's what it is and the majority would never rack mount a system or strap a system that was not aesthetically pleasing. Continue on with this thread as it was intended. Just my 2 cents.
 

Ken Newton

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2012
243
2
95
Hi Ken,

He had both analog and digital. I have "NEVER" heard digital like this before...

Leif, as it turns out, I have a particular technical curiosity around the execution of musical sounding digital front ends. Do you happen to recall the digital components that were utilized in Jimmy's system? I can't discern them in the photo. Thanks.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
(...) And yes how sad that only very few people will ever hear this system

Steve,

I have to disagree with all this sadness in an usually happy season ... :). Sound reproduction and being an audiophile is an wonderful hobby and I can not find anything sad in the fact I will probably never listen to such system or many others. I would be very happy to listen to them, and probably would enjoy a lot more meeting the great people who own them, but I do not consider that listening to great systems in large rooms is such an absolute and mandatory experience for most audiophiles.

It is great to know that expertise, technology, enthusiasm and resources can create such blowing experiences, and reading about them is enjoyable, even without participating. Besides we can learn from them if we know how to read. ;) But this hobby has so many facets that I can not consider sad just that we miss one of them.

Happy Holidays!
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
11,662
4,410
They are different and DSD to DXD is downsampled no matter what the original format was.. that doesn't mean or imply how downsampled DSD would sound. One has nothing to do with the other. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.....

when a session is recorded to dxd, and then mixed and converted to Quad dsd....I don't view that as down-sampling. more like 'cross sampling'. to me down-sampling is lowering the sample rate or bit volume. up sampling is raising the sample rate or bit volume.

maybe this is just semantics and we are meaning the same things.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
(...) As far as audiophile future visions go, the holy grail, it seems to me, is for absolute audio verisimilitude. Imagine that you were blindfolded and taken to some other physical location and seated. While still blindfolded, you hear music begin to play. At that moment, you believe that you are in a concert hall or other public venue listening to a live performance. After enjoying the performance a long while you remove the blindfold to discover that you have been listening to a reproduction in a domestic sized room. An completely convincing auditory illusion that's perceptually indistinguishable from reality. Is that even possible in a future along established technology paths? (...)

Although this would be theoretically possible, IMHO it is not the objective of sound reproduction. Sound reproduction must take in consideration that it wants to reproduce a real experience where you were not blindfolded and where you have used your sight, emotional experience and brains to create the whole scene. Only much later on you put the blindfold and try to recreate an enjoyable experience.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing