Live music: presence and tone part 2

morricab

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So, last Saturday evening my wife and I went to Tonhalle in Zurich and got to hear the incredible Evgeny Kissin in a piano recital. The bad news was that it was a very large piano (biggest I have seen) but it was in an even bigger concert hall. The good news is that we were sitting in the 2nd row! That means we were only about 5 meters from the piano and the sound was quite loud and present and the piano had at times almost bell like tones that shimmered in space. It lived and breathed with the intensity of the playing and we were close enough to hear all the little dynamic shifts and working of the pedals. An added bonus is that the piano was so highly polished that one could see the key actions inside the piano off the reflections from the lid, which was one notch from full open (that might actually project better into the hall than in the most open position).

It was not as intimate as the cello concert but very visceral, especially the Beethoven piece, the "Appassionata" Sonata, which is one of the more dynamic and difficult sonatas to play. The power and drama were communicated like a direct wire to the brain...it was exhilarating.

One thing I noticed was how many of the people around us were young. Were they young musicians who were disciples of a great musician? Perhaps. The other interesting thing I noticed was how many people were listening with their eyes closed. I did as well frequently and focused more on the sound with the visuals turned off the sound was even more interesting.

Again, I think about the parallels with the best piano recordings I have heard played on the best systems I have heard and some definitely got closer than others. I won't bore you with a replay of part one but suffice to say that it didn't get me hankering for a D'agostino Momentum or CH Precision system and a big multi-way speaker. I have heard enough of those systems to know that is not the way to what I hear in these concerts. YMMV.

Interestingly, two Munich's ago (my audiophile timekeeping) the Silbatone room had a big pair of 1930s theater speakers that were WE's "small theater" speaker at that time. It is huge for domestic situations...at least the cabinet/horn is...the driver itself was a 12 or 15 incher. Electronics were the very good and very expensive Silbatone. It was the first and only time I have seen my wife actually have tears running down the cheeks when they played a Russian Opera singer. It was gorgeous and emotional. That system might have been flawed in many ways and lacking some degree of realism but it was real enough to evoke real emotions.

It also got me thinking about the Munich 2014 Living Voice/Kondo setup that was super realistic and what piano sounded like there...like the real deal. 2015 was just as good but I knew what to expect this time. 2016 was slightly worse but still closer than the competitors.
 

bonzo75

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Very interesting, because I just came back from Prokofiev symphony 5 and Romeo and Juliet (Tchaikovsky) overture, where I tried to listen mostly closing my eyes and seriously, not trolling, it reminded me of EA MM7 and Dartzeel in a big gigantic perfectly designed room. Same soundstage depth, L to R staging, dynamics, bass bloom, etc. The WE in the Silbatone room 2014 and 2015, not 2016 continues to be among my favorite system but the Vox at least in Munich is too creamy and buttery sounding to be real. Of course it can be easily adjusted to the appropriate sound if one were to buy it.

The MM7, Analysis with NATs (didn't like it with the class D), Apogees have always been better at piano than horns. The only horns which do piano well are theater horns like Bionor and WE. Other horns do it better than many cones but nowhere perfectly, mostly because of a mismatch in the drivers. This is especially true of smaller horns where anything going through a crossover becomes unlistenable
 

Al M.

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Interesting experience, Brad. Recently I also sat about 5 meters away from the piano, at a recital of Stockhausen piano pieces in Killian Hall, MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The recording of those pieces that I play the most also happens to provide a rather direct sound. While my system is limited in many ways, I was astonished that, when I play that recording at a similar loudness as heard at that recital, it actually provides a rather quite good resemblance of the impact, macro- and micro-dynamics, and overall timbre of the live piano experience. Even though of course there are many finer timbral differences that easily differentiate reproduction from the real thing.
 

bonzo75

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Interesting experience, Brad. Recently I also sat about 5 meters away from the piano, at a recital of Stockhausen piano pieces in Killian Hall, MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The recording of those pieces that I play the most also happens to provide a rather direct sound. While my system is limited in many ways, I was astonished that, when I play that recording at a similar loudness as heard at that recital, it actually provides a rather quite good resemblance of the impact, macro- and micro-dynamics, and overall timbre of the live piano experience. Even though of course there are many finer timbral differences that easily differentiate reproduction from the real thing.

I am actually experimenting with the piano seating with the same artist and orchestra. I attended Perahia playing Beethoven's 1st and 3rd at Barbican, and sat in the Dress circle middle. In the new year when he plays the 2nd and the 4th, I will be seating in the stalls middle/back. And for the 5th, I will sit in front. Since it is the same artist, composer, orchestra, and hall, it will be interesting
 

morricab

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Very interesting, because I just came back from Prokofiev symphony 5 and Romeo and Juliet (Tchaikovsky) overture, where I tried to listen mostly closing my eyes and seriously, not trolling, it reminded me of EA MM7 and Dartzeel in a big gigantic perfectly designed room. Same soundstage depth, L to R staging, dynamics, bass bloom, etc. The WE in the Silbatone room 2014 and 2015, not 2016 continues to be among my favorite system but the Vox at least in Munich is too creamy and buttery sounding to be real. Of course it can be easily adjusted to the appropriate sound if one were to buy it.

The MM7, Analysis with NATs (didn't like it with the class D), Apogees have always been better at piano than horns. The only horns which do piano well are theater horns like Bionor and WE. Other horns do it better than many cones but nowhere perfectly, mostly because of a mismatch in the drivers. This is especially true of smaller horns where anything going through a crossover becomes unlistenable

And how far were you from the orchestra?
 

morricab

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Interesting experience, Brad. Recently I also sat about 5 meters away from the piano, at a recital of Stockhausen piano pieces in Killian Hall, MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The recording of those pieces that I play the most also happens to provide a rather direct sound. While my system is limited in many ways, I was astonished that, when I play that recording at a similar loudness as heard at that recital, it actually provides a rather quite good resemblance of the impact, macro- and micro-dynamics, and overall timbre of the live piano experience. Even though of course there are many finer timbral differences that easily differentiate reproduction from the real thing.

Your system is interesting; I had something similar for a while. It was also Class A push/pull (or SET hybrid) and with small exotic monitors ( Ref 3A Master Control MMC with Be tweeter upgrade) and servo sub. It worked great and was very transparent and lively for dynamic speakers. Almost good enough to stop...almost. I can imagine tone is very good with your system.
 

morricab

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Interesting experience, Brad. Recently I also sat about 5 meters away from the piano, at a recital of Stockhausen piano pieces in Killian Hall, MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The recording of those pieces that I play the most also happens to provide a rather direct sound. While my system is limited in many ways, I was astonished that, when I play that recording at a similar loudness as heard at that recital, it actually provides a rather quite good resemblance of the impact, macro- and micro-dynamics, and overall timbre of the live piano experience. Even though of course there are many finer timbral differences that easily differentiate reproduction from the real thing.

I just realized that I have heard these speakers before and they are excellent sounding with a lot of dynamic shading and transparency...kind of like Ref 3a in that regard.
 

LL21

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another great thread...posting just to make sure i get the updates and can read them.
 

Al M.

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I just realized that I have heard these speakers before and they are excellent sounding with a lot of dynamic shading and transparency...kind of like Ref 3a in that regard.

Actually, I did switch from the Ensemble Reference, which were very good, to Reference 3A MM de Capo BE monitors in April of this year.

Their website,
http://www.reference3a.com/decapo.html

links to my WBF review.

Almost good enough to stop...almost.

There is always better, of course...;)
 

PeterA

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Your system is interesting; I had something similar for a while. It was also Class A push/pull (or SET hybrid) and with small exotic monitors ( Ref 3A Master Control MMC with Be tweeter upgrade) and servo sub. It worked great and was very transparent and lively for dynamic speakers. Almost good enough to stop...almost. I can imagine tone is very good with your system.

I can attest to excellent sound in Al's system. It excels at dynamics, liveliness, palpable images and Presence. The new Ref 3A speakers are a big upgrade. Unfortunately, my favorite recording of Beethoven's Appassionata is a direct to disk 45rpm LP. Al does not play analog, so I can't listen to this recording on his system.
 

bonzo75

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And how far were you from the orchestra?

There are 6 rows at the ground level, all at the same level, right in front of the stage. After those, the rows.start going up on an incline, like in a theatre, and on this rows I was in the 7th centre, in line with the conductor So overall the 13th row (the first 6 and the next 7).

If you go to Barbican website and click on any orchestra event to book tickets, it is row P in stalls.

Sitting much more in front is extremely difficult for an orchestra, but works for vocal or violin.
 

morricab

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Actually, I did switch from the Ensemble Reference, which were very good, to Reference 3A MM de Capo BE monitors in April of this year.

Their website,
http://www.reference3a.com/decapo.html

links to my WBF review.



There is always better, of course...;)

I had three pairs of Ref3a at one time. Master Control MMC (very rare and expensive monitors), L'Integrale (they had superb bass and coherence but were slightly dark) and La Veritas, which used same drivers but in a smaller floor standing cabinet. They were less dark but bass was weaker. The MMCs were the best balanced and kept those for a while and upgraded the the tweeter to the current Be one.

Going to the Odeons upped the realism factor, especially for microdynamics even though the Refs are good at that. Coherence is about the same, which as a former stat guy matters to me a lot.
 

Al M.

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Unfortunately, my favorite recording of Beethoven's Appassionata is a direct to disk 45rpm LP. Al does not play analog, so I can't listen to this recording on his system.

...which sounds excellent on Peter's system.
 

KeithR

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One thing I noticed was how many of the people around us were young. Were they young musicians who were disciples of a great musician? Perhaps. The other interesting thing I noticed was how many people were listening with their eyes closed. I did as well frequently and focused more on the sound with the visuals turned off the sound was even more interesting.

That's great to hear - Disney Hall in LA is still very tilted towards older clientele or young folks who just want to go once to see the venue.

Back to the relationship between hifi and live music, Dave Wilson notably changed his speaker tonality after sessions with the Vienna Philharmonic in 2012 - do you agree his speakers now convey more of the real deal?
 

PeterA

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That's great to hear - Disney Hall in LA is still very tilted towards older clientele or young folks who just want to go once to see the venue.

Back to the relationship between hifi and live music, Dave Wilson notably changed his speaker tonality after sessions with the Vienna Philharmonic in 2012 - do you agree his speakers now convey more of the real deal?

I believe Dave Wilson also sits in on rehearsals in the practice rooms at the Opera House in Vienna during his annual trips. There is no question that his, and his son's, speaker designs have been influenced by these live listening sessions.
 

sbo6

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In my many listening experiences including playing live many years as an amateur musician, 2 channels will never accurately emulate the live event. Variables such as microphone type, quantity and placement, the recording device type, cabling, etc. all flavor/alter the sound. Then there's all the mixing and mastering not to mention the completely different spaces - live venue vs. a small listening room. Top it off with the delta between a full orchestra (for example) splayed ~50' across vs. 2 boxes emanating sound via 10 sq ' of circles and physics dictates, well, it's just not real. This doesn't take away from 2 channel listening IMO, but I believe it's important to put things into perspective and be realistic with your experiences. Your room ain't Carnegie hall live.
 

microstrip

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(...) Back to the relationship between hifi and live music, Dave Wilson notably changed his speaker tonality after sessions with the Vienna Philharmonic in 2012 - do you agree his speakers now convey more of the real deal?

As far as I have read in a 2008 review the Alexandria X2 series 2 was serious influenced by the listening sessions at the Wiener Musikverein.

I consider that the bigger step in approaching more of the real was achieved with the Wilson XLF . Perhaps it was due to significant improvements in the microdynamics that resulted in a much more natural sounding speaker. It is reported that the source for this development were the studies of the acoustics of the Musikverein's acoustics - Dave objectives exceeded just the real music, he aimed also at reproducing the microdetail and timing responsible for the sound signature of this great sounding room.
 

LL21

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As far as I have read in a 2008 review the Alexandria X2 series 2 was serious influenced by the listening sessions at the Wiener Musikverein.

I consider that the bigger step in approaching more of the real was achieved with the Wilson XLF . Perhaps it was due to significant improvements in the microdynamics that resulted in a much more natural sounding speaker. It is reported that the source for this development were the studies of the acoustics of the Musikverein's acoustics - Dave objectives exceeded just the real music, he aimed also at reproducing the microdetail and timing responsible for the sound signature of this great sounding room.

I agree that the XLF was a greater leap forward in my limited experience. I found it more coherent, more effortless, quieter and less mechanical...personally, I think a lot had to do with the cabinetry as well...i concur specifically with the observations with the folks at Audio Federation who felt that the lower mid-upper bass notes did not 'pull to the speaker' as much as with the earlier generations of the big X, which was potentially a reflection of the earlier cabinets not being totally inert.
 

morricab

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That's great to hear - Disney Hall in LA is still very tilted towards older clientele or young folks who just want to go once to see the venue.

Back to the relationship between hifi and live music, Dave Wilson notably changed his speaker tonality after sessions with the Vienna Philharmonic in 2012 - do you agree his speakers now convey more of the real deal?

It is hard to say because I have not ever compared an old and new Wilson speaker. I have not liked the Alexia so much after hearing it now several times but it did sound great with Nagra this year in Munich.

That said, the best I have heard from Wilson is an old pair of X1s with a KR amp.
 

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