Stereophile | January 2017 Issue

bonzo75 said:

Like sb06, I will start with "with due respect". With due respect, that is quite a strawman argument Frantz. Have you been on the UK forums, where it's all horns, and Wilson and Magico are only considered as safe gets for the used market, nothing more? There are many forums where horns are considered the best, in fact quite unfairly, given how many small horns are crap. JBL has a large variance among its products, it's the DIY JBL horns which are really good, and I think the commercial ones like K2 ride on the JBL legacy.

The ones not liking B&O here are actually the ones that like off beat speakers (Aries cerat, restored apogee, and horns you are not aware that exist) you have never heard, so to say B&O is not liked for the reasons you stated is a strawman provocative argument with no foundation

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Good Morning to you all...
Happy Holidays!

Now let me address the point I made:

Statement: It took many years for audiophile to recognize what horns brings to the table: True or False? To this day when the conversation comes abpout great speakers horns are rarely mentioned.
Multi-drivers box items are usually on top of the list: True or False?
On this board JBL or horns owners are not legion : True or False?

There are crappy speakers all over the place and this from all type of speakers, multi-drivers and planars included. Many speakers from audiophile darlings belong to this group. What makes it quite difficult is the fact that it takes a certain amount of time to extract the best from any speakers . Some will sound bad until many things are addressed: Placement, Room, ancillary equipment etc ... Some will sound good but their best requires a lot to be undertaken ... So ... a statement like

given how many small horns are crap

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could also quite easily become "given how many speakers are crap" .. There are small horn "craps" and large horns "crap" ... lot of them, too many of them ...

JBL has variance ... True .. remains they have been producing excellent speakers for a long while that have been avoided by mainstream, perhaps American audiophiles : True or False?... Perhaps 2 members here have a JBL 4367 and very few gushes over these.. You won't hear a "congrats" from acquiring a 4367, quite the contrary ... there have been sneers and quite a good amount of derision ... One of those people went from a Giya to 4367 ... Did we hear cheers? No... One could say that not having heard the speakers, one can only wait but you would have seen "congrats" if it had been a Magico M3, a speaker very, very few have heard...

I could go on but suffice to say that I don't know it all , I haven't heard everything. I have heard a number of things and have been in this hobby long enough to know there is a form of orthodoxy in the audiophile mind. Some products are perceived as worthy of audition and some are not. No one would care for a Yamaha anything or a Technics a TAD will have people attention, a Pioneer will not... In the 70's we made sure of painting ALL turntables from the Japanese manufacturers as inferior and that included the wonderful Kenwood, Pioneer, Tehcnics, Luxman, Micro Seiki turntables .. They were deemed inferior to the TT from England ... myself went for a Pink Triangle when I could have had a kenwood L07 !!!! The biggest regret of my audiophile life!!! A Kenwood L07 !!!!!

So B&O comes up with a speaker : Active, Digital, DSP and Class D??? And the majority of audiophiles would give it an honest audition? Allow me with all due respect to think the contrary.

Harlequin said:

I quite agree micro, as with most if not all Panel transducers.

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Panels and dipole speakers typically excel at imaging and resolution, however they are very depending on listener position and optimizing speaker location within the listening room. Bad experiences must stem from missing these points.

FrantzM said:

Perhaps 2 members here have a JBL 4367 and very few gushes over these.. You won't hear a "congrats" from acquiring a 4367, quite the contrary ... there have been sneers and quite a good amount of derision ... One of those people went from a Giya to 4367 ... Did we heard cheers? No... One could say that not having heard the speaker one can only wait but you would have seen "congrats" if it had been a Magico M3 a speaker very, very few have heard...

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Spot on, Frantz.

I could go on but suffice to say that I don't know it all , I haven't heard everything. I have heard a number of things and have been in this hobby long enough to know there is a form of orthodoxy in the audiophile mind.

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You have a gentle way of framing things politely...

It's worse. There is a lot of DOGMA in the typical audiophile mind.

Here is a picture of my Dogma , joined the ranks of my other woofers 3 days ago , most realism I ever heard.
Maximillian .. miniature schnauzer pup

Rodney Gold said:

Here is a picture of my Dogma , joined the ranks of my other woofers 3 days ago , most realism I ever heard.
Maximillian .. miniature schnauzer pup

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Hehe. Congratulations, Rodney, on your pup! Looks really cute.

FrantzM said:

this company doesn't go with any of the audiophile closely-held tenants : Cables. Special Cables, Special vibration Control. Separate components. Plus it seems B&O has fumbled somehow the opening with a speaker whose real world adjustability doesn't seem to be as easily performed as exemplified by Kal samples which had a particular EQ...

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Even when user EQ becomes available, the factory setting will be what was supplied and reviewed.

Frantz...false...you are probably following only a few writers on WBF, since otherwise horns are considered to be better than most speakers. The orthodoxy can actually bff horns. Depends on which forums and writers you follow.

As for DSP, Marty's DSPed room has been praised by many on this site, including me. So your generalized argument is, well, with due respect, without any foundation. After guy listen to B&O, restored apogees, some horns, and some live acoustic, maybe we can discuss...

bonzo75 said:

Frantz...false...you are probably following only a few writers on WBF, since otherwise horns are considered to be better than most speakers. The orthodoxy can actually bff horns. Depends on which forums and writers you follow.

As for DSP, Marty's DSPed room has been praised by many on this site, including me. So your generalized argument is, well, with due respect, without any foundation. After guy listen to B&O, restored apogees, some horns, and some live acoustic, maybe we can discuss...

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I don't really interact with any horn user. and cannot recall visiting one.

maybe in other parts of the world they are a big deal, but not around here much.

at shows I pretty much ignore them, they seem at best to get part of the picture possibly very nicely, but rarely or never the whole picture.

I know there are wonderful horn based systems out there, and hopefully someday I will get to know them.

dsp? not even any interest to try. it's answering a question I will never ask.

B & O?

they make the amps in my bass towers......and they work great.

I have a whole house B & O system that I inherited when I bought the place, looks nice......does not work very well and don't use it. sounds mid-fi.

next case.

Mike Lavigne said:

I don't really interact with any horn user. and cannot recall visiting one.

maybe in other parts of the world they are a big deal, but not around here much.

at shows I pretty much ignore them, they seem at best to get part of the picture possibly very nicely, but rarely or never the whole picture.

I know there are wonderful horn based systems out there, and hopefully someday I will get to know them.

dsp? not even any interest to try.

next case.

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Horns are very popular in Munich too. Must be an American thing. There is a huge SET amp and horns following in EU. At Munich you will see WE, cessaro, trios and duos, tune audio, Blumenhofer, Acapella, JMF, horns universum, and more

I ve heard acapella (not the huge system ) on a couple occasions , blumenhofers on several occasions there is a dealer nearby about 65 k a pair iirc , zingali , , some NOS big old looking designs of 40 k a pair which looked half speaker /half furniture at a show .

In my mind they are all limited designs not full bandwith ones , i also assume you will see a lot of strange things if you stick a FR measuring micro phone in front of them , rolled of highs /bass , i ve seen some measurments done on several horndesigns and most was nasty ,for example the transition going from the mid horn to the woofer , and the high freq horn which rolled of a lot
But hey its never to late to learn , may be other people did find the holy grail ,

On chamber music vocals they "may" have a charm easy going music / easy on the ear , but its just my opinion.

I think i liked klipsch the best

andromedaaudio said:

I ve heard acapella (not the huge system ) on a couple occasions , blumenhofers on several occasions there is a dealer nearby about 65 k a pair iirc , zingali , some NOS big old looking designs of 40 k a pair which looked half speaker /half furniture at a show .

In my mind they are all limited designs not full bandwith ones , i also assume you will see a lot of strange things if you stick a FR measuring micro phone in front of them , rolled of highs /bass , i ve seen some measurments done on several horndesigns and most was nasty ,for example the transition going from the mid horn to the woofer , and the high freq horn which rolled of a lot
But hey its never to late to learn , may be other people did find the holy grail ,

On chamber music vocals they "may" have a charm easy going music / easy on the ear , but its just my opinion

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I agree with you that most horn designs are limited, which does not change the fact that there is a big fan following for them(which was Frantz's point, that B&O, like horns, is not an audiophile attention grabbing speaker and is therefore ignored, while in reality, Believe High Fidelity, sbo6, and I have been countering it's because of the tone etc) Horns are actually quite popular, and which is why I said in my previous posts that many horns are unfairly praised for just being...horns. There are very few good horns, and the smaller models are awfully compromised. Many smaller models sell just because they have high sensitivity and can be driven by SETs, while in reality they have many crossover issues, disparate drivers, harsh tones, bad bass. Unlike panels and cones, horns don't scale down well, and the smaller ones to me seem quite unlistenable, especially where they have closed cabinets. DIY Voice of Theatre horns are a good way to search for excellent speakers, and at a cheaper price, though dependent on a one man service. I am quite sure I will settle down with a restored Apogee or a DIY horn, if the latter one can be built when required, and it also is less room dependent, just requires some space, not any particular shape, and can be pushed back to the wall.

bonzo75 said:

I agree with you that most horn designs are limited, which does not change the fact that there is a big fan following for them(which was Frantz's point, that B&O, like horns, is not an audiophile attention grabbing speaker and is therefore ignored, while in reality, Believe High Fidelity, sbo6, and I have been countering it's because of the tone etc) Horns are actually quite popular, and which is why I said in my previous posts that many horns are unfairly praised for just being...horns. There are very few good horns, and the smaller models are awfully compromised. Many smaller models sell just because they have high sensitivity and can be driven by SETs, while in reality they have many crossover issues, disparate drivers, harsh tones, bad bass. Unlike panels and cones, horns don't scale down well, and the smaller ones to me seem quite unlistenable, especially where they have closed cabinets. DIY Voice of Theatre horns are a good way to search for excellent speakers, and at a cheaper price, though dependent on a one man service. I am quite sure I will settle down with a restored Apogee or a DIY horn, if the latter one can be built when required, and it also is less room dependent, just requires some space, not any particular shape, and can be pushed back to the wall.

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I do 'get' what people like about the best of horns. there is magic there to be found. it's potentially closer to the music, if with a narrower, more limited view. and when my mind is chasing the ideal, approaching the best of what these narrower approaches do well is a worthy goal to include.

I can see that getting closest to the music with horns (one way to view it) would be very attractive.

This spkr really deserves to get some appreciation for what it's trying to do
From my admittedly limited experience it seems truly class leading when it comes to dynamics and bass extension
What it does w tone, delicacy, harmonic development and air I'd need to reassess at a more in depth demo

Mike Lavigne said:

I do 'get' what people like about the best of horns. there is magic there to be found. it's potentially closer to the music, if with a narrower, more limited view. and when my mind is chasing the ideal, approaching the best of what these narrower approaches do well is a worthy goal to include.

I can see that getting closest to the music with horns (one way to view it) would be very attractive.

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As Andromeda pointed out and Bonzo reaffirmed is that most folks opinions based on horn design (especially in the USA) have been of very compromised designs. Honking and colorations just to get compression free sound is a big trade off and one that most people would not want to make.

This is where a proper horn design get little to no love due to the past designs turning so many people off (including me for a time).

However, I have never been closer to the music than through a horn design. But at the level to play in the horn game is VERY expensive largely due to the amount of effort needed (raw materials, lathe or 5 axis machine, big horn, etc). No matter how good a bery, ceramic, or even diamond driver may be it will never as fast or distortion free as a compression driver.

Then if you want a full horn system you need basshorns which you can't just add a robust bass driver and cabinet and get matching low end. Again cost to play it right starts to really add up.

Even with the Aries Cerat Symphonia it doesn't have the last word in bass from a 85k design. Powerful, clean and accurate, but you would be surprised how many people miss the boom they attribute to good bass which is not at all what bass should be. I would love to throw in a good sub, but I would need a bass horn to do it right and they are not cheap. A big room is also the best way to hear them for driver integration which is especially difficult for most

You owe it to yourself to give them another listen, at least to some of the good ones.

NorthStar said:

Hi Joshua,

Merry Christmas!

Josh, between the BeloLab 90 and MartinLogan ESL 15A which one would you recommend first? Thank u

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Merry Christmas!

Neither. Given the price point of the 90's I would recommend the Neolith and having heard that at CES it was miles ahead of the 90's.

I grew up as a panel guy so one could say that I am partial, but for those who have owned panels they get the imaging and transparency that very few dynamic speakers can deliver. But there is a common trend that exists in the world of being a panel lover and that is after owning their best you inevitably move on to a dynamic speaker. Also almost every owner I know that has the funds to or desire to keep improving the sound eventually chooses to leave this camp even owners of 20+ years.

With a better ML like the 15A say coming from a Summit or CLX art you are getting a similar panel sound. The designs are more similar than they are different and the main changes to the line come in the form of the low end grunt, crossover design, or DSP/ARC etc.

When you look for a huge improvement in sound and realize it is better but the same in more ways it is a bit disappointing. Maybe people just want change for the sake of.

Like Ron's journey he could have purchased a Neolith/15A but has moved to a great dynamic driver speaker from Gryphon. The 90's fall short because their technology is not designed for audiophiles looking for true to source. When is the last time you heard of a omni mode for parties in your hifi speaker designer lol


I still love panels and open baffle designs and there will always be a place in my heart for them. But being a horn reseller now I have never heard any panel do classical anywhere close. No horn guy I have ever met has moved back to a panel from going to a horn.

Why may you ask? Well Darth Sidious has the answer....

NorthStar said:

Here's Kal's review (BeoLab 90) from Stereophile's January 2017 Issue, in full:

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This reprinting in full of a review from Stereophile is an infringement of our copyright. Please delete the review and its photos and graphs and replace with a link to the original review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/bang-olufsen-beolab-90-loudspeaker

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Bang & Olufsen BeoLab 90 loudspeaker - Measurements
Basso Profundo - Page 2 - 3 - 4

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Again, this reprinting in full of content from Stereophile is an infringement of our copyright. Please remove it from this website.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Stereoeditor said:

Again, this reprinting in full of content from Stereophile is an infringement of our copyright. Please remove it from this website.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Hi John,

Please give Northstar some time to do it since it is XMas and he might need to connect first with a site Admin to be able to actually remove it (people's availabilities may not be immediate).

Merry Xmas.

Stereoeditor said:

Again, this reprinting in full of content from Stereophile is an infringement of our copyright. Please remove it from this website.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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All done John

Sorry for the digression.

I have removed it and left the link as requested