RCA inputs on ATAE LNP-3 tape preamp?

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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Hi Mike,

Please keep in mind that the professional tape world is quite different from the hobbyist tape world. I hope to shed light on some of those differences here.

Yours is a FAQ and the answer is no, because we feel that fitting RCA connectors for tape play head inputs on our preamps would be a big step backwards. Let me list some reasons why.

First, fitting RCA inputs would invite problems with the customer changing cables. You'd have no idea of the cable capacitance, the cable length and shielding characteristics. So your careful head to first stage interface optimization goes right out the window.

Second, tape playback heads are not line level devices and they are certainly not suitable for directly driving anything but the shortest of cables. (It has been found that a cable length of about 10 cm or under is ideal.) That is only part of the reason that we started seeing repro head "pre-preamps" (the very first stage of gain) placed in, or immediately adjacent to the headblocks of the best pro machines in the early 1980s.

Third, as mentioned, ATAE equipment is designed for professional use. Note that you will never see RCAs used anywhere on professional tape machines. Knowledgeable analog circuit designers have long known that RCA connectors are sub-optimal for highest quality unbalanced audio signal transmission and certainly this is so for the low-level signals seen in playback heads.

Also, we must remember that analog tape professionals change headblocks much like pro photographers change lenses. Taking quarter-inch tape for an example, a professional will need a minimum of four headblocks to cover the common formats that might turn up in most tape archives. These of course are: full-track monaural, half-track (or two-track) NAB, DIN stereo and quarter-track stereo, a once popular consumer delivery format.

I'm fully aware of the argument that one can cover all four of these track formats with fewer repro head types. But such a low-budget, faking-it approach is throwing away optimal signal-to-noise performance.

For those reading here who might not know, knowledgeable professionals working with high-value master tapes do not use standard, three-head confidence recording (sometimes called ERP for erase, record, play) headblocks to play back master tapes.

I'm delighted that over the past ten years, some quality-focused professionals have been using our ATAE SHRO blocks. Further, we feel that it should take under one minute to change a headblock on a precision guidance transport. We also believe that the reproducer should then be ready to go, without any need for making additional adjustments to the related connected equipment.

Now, what might be the single most important reason has to do with perfecting the critically important repro head to first stage matching.

When we place the first gain stage right there inside the headblock, that circuit has been matched to that particular head.

ATAE THP-2 tape head pre-preamplifier
DSC_0130.jpg

So now you have a headblock system that facilitates quick-changes, provides the optimal head matching for that particular head and has the built-in gain intended for driving a designated connection cable to the outboard tape playback preamplifier. It's clearly the right way to do it. Not our invention by any means, many did this earlier (Studer and Cello are but two).

Our work is only a humble effort to help advance the state of the art of analog tape playback. It's tragic that the public doesn't know just how good many of the surviving master tapes in the record label vaults can actually sound. Of course, how could they, as so many of the earlier transfers were of poor quality and hardly anyone gets access to many of the surviving original master tapes today.
 
Jan 18, 2012
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very interesting
I also thought that the new generation machines like A810/820 with all their digital circuitry, exposed the signal from headblock to audioboards of more stray noise, and thus necessitated the use of a headblock pre to make the delicate signal more robust......
still don´t like the idea of the opamp in the signal path though......
best
Leif
 

Mike Lavigne

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Fred,

you know I'm a big fan of your work, and have no doubt that your comprehensive tape preamp approach is superior (both to the current hobbyist efforts and past serious pro level efforts).

OTOH us tape hobbyist's have a different agenda than the whole head block switching approach, since we are not dealing with original master tapes with so much variance. mostly....almost exclusively.....we deal with dubs which are produced for a quite narrow EQ, gain, head profile and tape formulation window. and our custom output preamp electronics are tuned for that too.

and our priorities are to surpass the stock electronics of the stock RTR deck.

so compromises and limitations abound relative to your approach. but we still enjoy a step up (sometimes a big step up) over the stock outputs of the RTR decks. and we don't need to output +10 db balanced to run a pro audio mastering suite. I get that taking the signal from the heads and running lines to a tape preamp 3-4 feet away is not the most elegant solution......but also the inside of a tape deck is not the friendliest spot for those circuits either.

we all know how that works with phono cables and .14mV outputs from cartridges. shorter is better there too, but 1.25 meters typically works well. many of us have lots of experience dealing with those variables.

I'm throwing you another 'softball' to allow you to further explain what you might actually recommend as a real world approach for us hobbyists which does not end up at a $60k+ deck & preamp solution. or maybe that it's an all or nothing choice from the ATAE perspective.

personally; I would seriously consider an ATAE preamp product I could use that would not include the whole head block changing and head block pre aspect. it's compromised but also plug and play and would allow for fine adjustments tape to tape. I think many others might too.
 
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Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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mostly....almost exclusively.....we deal with dubs which are produced for a quite narrow EQ

Hi Mike, I will guess that you mean for both IEC1 and IEC2 (the formerly called IEC and NAB Standards) and 15 in/s?

But how do you know this is actually the case? Are there useful, meaningful alignment tones on the tapes you have?

our custom output preamp electronics are tuned for that too.

Again, please explain how you actually know this? Have you aligned your playback electronics to authoritative IEC1 and IEC2 reproduce alignment tapes? If so, please share the results. How close did your playback electronics come to matching the eq curves?

explain what you might actually recommend as a real world approach for us hobbyists which does not end up at a $60k+ deck & preamp solution.

With a top quality tape transport (audiophile grade, the ones that sound noticeably better) being many times more complex and expensive to build than a top quality turntable, how could you reasonably expect such a thing? Unless it is only meant to be a novelty or toy?

Let's back up a moment. Kindly bear with me. A keen observer might conclude that some people who are selling tape copies founded their business model on the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of old tape machines still out there. Machines that can be had almost for free! They correctly surmised that many people would enjoy fixing them up and using them. So providing something to play on these machines was a clever, and in my view, perfectly honest pursuit.

But it has nothing at all to do with high-end audio, where, by my definition we are interested in exploring and pushing the boundaries of audio fidelity.

If somebody really wanted to go there with analog tape, they would be using half-inch 2-track at 30 in/s. But then we would have broken the business plan. (Ask me how I know this.)

Back to the topic at hand. Mike, from your own personal experience with the very best turntables you should recognize that people are flat out wrong to be suggesting that the time base accuracy of the tape transport is subordinate to somebody's purportedly superior playback electronics. Especially when that electronics will not even correctly align to the standard equalization curves and there are no meaningful alignment tones on the tapes. This isn't high-end audio. They have gone off the rails and are into the weeds.

personally; I would seriously consider an ATAE preamp product I could use that would not include the whole head block changing and head block pre aspect. it's compromised but also plug and play and would allow for fine adjustments tape to tape. I think many others might too.

I appreciate that, Mike. Sincerely!

Please describe it as fully as you can, tell me what it should sell for and bring me some firm orders (customers) and I will get right on it.

But please be accepting of the necessity of our specifying of the playback head type and model that it is designed for, and also of our specifying or furnishing the necessary connecting cables.

Thanks for the dialog.
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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With a top quality tape transport (audiophile grade, the ones that sound noticeably better) being many times more complex and expensive to build than a top quality turntable, how could you reasonably expect such a thing? Unless it is only meant to be a novelty or toy?

Fred, there is no middle ground between perfection and novelty? I can't believe that is the case. Many of us have reel to reel setups which are quite enjoyable and are certainly not a novelty.
 

c1ferrari

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Hi Fred, How well...or not...would 1.318.705 and 318.726 repro heads work with the ATAE LNP-3? Thanks. Sam
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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Fred, there is no middle ground between perfection and novelty?

Hi Dave, Mike and I were talking about the cost of building all new tape machines.

As I see it, there is little point in doing that, if they do not turn out considerably better than the best of what has been done before.
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
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Hi Fred, How well...or not...would 1.318.705 and 318.726 repro heads work with the ATAE LNP-3? Thanks. Sam

Hi Sam, Perfectly.

And you have a choice of either the original Cello THP-1, or our THP-2 first stage. We sell the LNP-3 only together with our new reproducers.
 

c1ferrari

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Hi Sam, Perfectly.

And you have a choice of either the original Cello THP-1, or our THP-2 first stage. We sell the LNP-3 only together with our new reproducers.

Thanks for the clarification. I presume there's info regarding the THP-1 and THP-2 on your website -- I'll pay another visit. :cool:
 
Jan 18, 2012
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hi
just wondering..is your all linear A80 supply a dedicated Cello/ML based regulated audio supply or does it cover all psu tasks?
also you make a point of it being linear, but as far as I know, all the psu´s in the superior A820 are sm, right?
so is the A820 only superior due to better tape handling?..the std audio circuitry is as far as I know same as in A810?
best
Leif
 

microstrip

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Fred,

Greta to see this thread on the ATAE LNP-3 - about twenty years ago I owned the Cello Audio Pallette and P101 phono modules. As far as I remember the Cello modules only used discrete components, I see you use now an integrated circuit in the head preamplifier. Did the Mark Levinson original ML-5's already have this pre-preamplifier close to the head?
 

rockitman

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Fred, there is no middle ground between perfection and novelty? I can't believe that is the case. Many of us have reel to reel setups which are quite enjoyable and are certainly not a novelty.

Clearly there is as we have witnessed comparing SOTA vinyl playback to our substandard hobbyist RTR playback with studio safety master 1/4" IEC tapes.
It would be interesting to have a listening session between Fred's SOTA machines and our hobbyist decks with our outboard and in some cases... inboard custom pre's.
 
Jan 18, 2012
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probably no match at all, since he´s in control of parameters we´re not even aware of existed !
still a 10KUSD A80 in semi-optimal condition easily outperforms an equivalent value phone cartridge, and then you still need money for turntable, arm, riaa etc
the difference is in sw cost....
best
Leif
 

rockitman

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probably no match at all, since he´s in control of parameters we´re not even aware of existed !
still a 10KUSD A80 in semi-optimal condition easily outperforms an equivalent value phone cartridge, and then you still need money for turntable, arm, riaa etc
the difference is in sw cost....
best
Leif

Our ears are not O-scopes, volt meter's, ect. Clearly Fred's decks meet all known specs better than anyone's I surmise. Does that translate to appreciable improvement in sound quality (with imperfect ears) compared to our less than perfect spec decks with custom pre's whether on or off board ? I'm not so sure.
 

c1ferrari

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May 15, 2010
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probably no match at all...the difference is in sw cost....
best
Leif

Agreed, Leif -- and -- sw accessibility...at least, for the 60's - 70's (perhaps, even some earlier 80's) artists with AAA program material.
:cool:
 

astrotoy

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Our ears are not O-scopes, volt meter's, ect. Clearly Fred's decks meet all known specs better than anyone's I surmise. Does that translate to appreciable improvement in sound quality (with imperfect ears) compared to our less than perfect spec decks with custom pre's whether on or off board ? I'm not so sure.

My thoughts are similar to Christian and Leif's. Does any audiophile you know have one of Fred's ATAE A80's or 820's? I know a few including those who have commented who have A80's or 820's, but not an ATAE. From what I can see, they are in the ballpark of a nice Techdas TT or a couple of pairs of ultra high end interconnects. Certainly, there are some folks where price is not an issue. Like to hear their experience with an ATAE machine - particularly sonics compared with other machines. Larry
 
Jan 18, 2012
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ATAE machines are maybe more professional worktools than machines for just reproducing (safety) masters
thus they adress a slightly different market apart from those few who simply want the best, whatever cost
best
Leif
 

Mike Lavigne

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My thoughts are similar to Christian and Leif's. Does any audiophile you know have one of Fred's ATAE A80's or 820's? I know a few including those who have commented who have A80's or 820's, but not an ATAE. From what I can see, they are in the ballpark of a nice Techdas TT or a couple of pairs of ultra high end interconnects. Certainly, there are some folks where price is not an issue. Like to hear their experience with an ATAE machine - particularly sonics compared with other machines. Larry

my 1/4" A-820 was refurbished by Fred back in 2007-2008. he had it for 8 months. it was a pristine low use machine in perfect cosmetic condition (I found at a studio in Austin, Texas.......back before these were so precious).....but needed going through. it would be for Fred to specify how it might compare to his full tilt machines. I drove down to California to pick it up and spend a day with Fred getting some basic training on it.

it has been absolutely perfect for the 8 years since.

as far as how it sounds; I've yet to hear it's equal. no tt get's to that level with the best tapes. just my perception, of course. I use it with the King Cello tape pre, but also through the stock outputs.
 
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