Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

morricab · Feb 18, 2022

Alrainbow said:
I Love horns right up until I don't lol. My room is bigger then that venue you were at .
I can agree to most of the original posting except where it's how it can be played back.
I had players at my place a few times man it's depressing.
But my setup far from perfect is much better then before.
I have thousands of watts ss all not kidding . For it to get close it must be played loud 80 to 95 db at this level there is far more detail , harmonics
The room must be alive but not shout back . A tricky objective to attain . At this level of loudness the sound scape varies greatly at seating
My couch is 9 feet back , but at 15 to 25 feet back the sound is very different . To have the live level of sound 9 feet is a must at this level n distance there here . Back further I'm there.
I do agree very few systems.can get close , I can't say tubes or ss watts needed. I think it comes to distance and size of room. A large room need large drivers how much power above my pay grade. But there are plenty of math needed to understand.
Loud in a room is not the same as loud right at you . A large room disepates the acoustic energy so it don't seem loud
Do this in a smaller room it's very different. Regarding the cart and cart . I can see your point a great phono pre is a must , but a combo of both all the better.

One thing that matters to me is that a system still sounds alive and in balance even at low volumes. You know the true noise floor and dynamic capability as you go down in volume. The lower you can go without it losing info, dynamics and tonal balance the better and more realistic a system is likely to sound. The better you can easily discern soft sounds in the presence of louder ones (what my friend Allen Wright called downward dynamic range) the more realistic the sound. A good example is the decay of a piano chord that you can keep hearing distinctly in the presence of the next notes. Most systems will simply lose this rather quickly but live you can hear those decays for a long time if not actively damped by the pianist.

If you need to play moderately loud to get any sense of realism then you should take a critical look at your system because something (or somethings) is holding it back and restricting dynamics and raising the noise floor.

Alrainbow · Feb 18, 2022

morricab said:
One thing that matters to me is that a system still sounds alive and in balance even at low volumes. You know the true noise floor and dynamic capability as you go down in volume. The lower you can go without it losing info, dynamics and tonal balance the better and more realistic a system is likely to sound. The better you can easily discern soft sounds in the presence of louder ones (what my friend Allen Wright called downward dynamic range) the more realistic the sound. A good example is the decay of a piano chord that you can keep hearing distinctly in the presence of the next notes. Most systems will simply lose this rather quickly but live you can hear those decays for a long time if not actively damped by the pianist.

If you need to play moderately loud to get any sense of realism then you should take a critical look at your system because something (or somethings) is holding it back and restricting dynamics and raising the noise floor.

its not the room noise , i dont think my type speakers play low well , i maybe wrong but its how i feel . for me if i play low there is plenty lost unless up close at 8 feet . i need to be at a certain volume to get all i like . maybe horns can do this better im not a pro to know . i do understand your point and agree . i can readily hear peddles being used on piano and i think this matters . but this is at moderate loudness . your points are well made .

morricab · Feb 18, 2022

Alrainbow said:
its not the room noise , i dont think my type speakers play low well , i maybe wrong but its how i feel . for me if i play low there is plenty lost unless up close at 8 feet . i need to be at a certain volume to get all i like . maybe horns can do this better im not a pro to know . i do understand your point and agree . i can readily hear peddles being used on piano and i think this matters . but this is at moderate loudness . your points are well made .

I had IRS Betas in the past and it was the same...they need to be played loud. The lack of sensitivity of these planar drivers was holding them back...modern concepts with Nd magnets to get the sensitivities up by almost 10db help a lot in that regard.

LL21 · Feb 18, 2022

morricab said:
One thing that matters to me is that a system still sounds alive and in balance even at low volumes. You know the true noise floor and dynamic capability as you go down in volume. The lower you can go without it losing info, dynamics and tonal balance the better and more realistic a system is likely to sound. The better you can easily discern soft sounds in the presence of louder ones (what my friend Allen Wright called downward dynamic range) the more realistic the sound. A good example is the decay of a piano chord that you can keep hearing distinctly in the presence of the next notes. Most systems will simply lose this rather quickly but live you can hear those decays for a long time if not actively damped by the pianist.

If you need to play moderately loud to get any sense of realism then you should take a critical look at your system because something (or somethings) is holding it back and restricting dynamics and raising the noise floor.

That is interesting because as our system has continued to evolve over the last several years, we have continuously commented that we play at LOWER and LOWER levels and are completely happy even all the way to the deep bass thwacks (which is super important if you are a bass freak).

Today we can play at volume 1 on the dial in the middle of the day if we wish and be extremely happy...and certainly have no issues in doing so late in the evening. We do play a little bit louder but frankly not by much. And this is from someone who has had complaints from neighbors from not that many years ago...all the way back to my university days!

microstrip · Feb 18, 2022

LL21 said:
(...) Today we can play at volume 1 on the dial in the middle of the day if we wish and be extremely happy...and certainly have no issues in doing so late in the evening. We do play a little bit louder but frankly not by much. And this is from someone who has had complaints from neighbors from not that many years ago...all the way back to my university days! (...)

I am astonished that you can be extremely happy with volume 1 in your system - Robert Koda units are not high gain, I would expect the volume 1 to be almost whispering level, even with the XLF's. Have you measured the peak sound level in such setting?

LL21 · Feb 18, 2022

microstrip said:
I am astonished that you can be extremely happy with volume 1 in your system - Robert Koda units are not high gain, I would expect the volume 1 to be almost whispering level, even with the XLF's. Have you measured the peak sound level in such setting?

The Robert Koda is 8db in the preamp and 26db in the amp. At volume 1, it is quiet but you hear everything and even the bass at this level gives you a balanced, quiet chest hit during bass kicks and electronic deep house. Right now, we are happy listening at volume 3 with no lack...just measured at 35db...my wife just measured it (17 feet listening distance) using her iphone and was shocked at how low it was because we have full-on jazz playing. And again, this is from someone who had complaints from neighbors across the world for 20 years...all of this stopped when:
- we got the Wilson X1s, the Velodyne DD18, the Tripoint Troy and a LOT of quality mechanical isolation.
- We felt the noise floor dropped, and the rest is history.

Alrainbow · Feb 18, 2022

I

morricab said:
I had IRS Betas in the past and it was the same...they need to be played loud. The lack of sensitivity of these planar drivers was holding them back...modern concepts with Nd magnets to get the sensitivities up by almost 10db help a lot in that regard.

Mine have them , last revision of Arnie cross over too. Then I re capped the woofer towers
Bought ml no 33 amps re capped them. In the end a fully refurbed krell 700 cx bettered the no 33 for speed .
Tomorrow I'll take the time to make a proper post on this. I truly love this topic .

Rensselaer · May 18, 2022

I read Morricab's start of this thread for the first time today, catching up. It immediately brought to mind a live performance the wife and I heard in a small stone chapel in Florence (Dante's, apparently).

It was a few years back, but I still remember it clearly. A violin, a viola, a clarinet and a bassoon playing Mozart's horn concerto. When that bassoonist began blowing wow! Those deep plump velvety sounds filled the chapel and our bodies. What an experience. The clarinet, violin and viola overlaying the melody onto the rich bassoon foundation. Everything there, nothing lost or drowned out. I didn't hear breathing, or notice squeaking of fingers on necks, or rustle of clothing, but the sound, man I felt that. So much so that I turned to my wife and whispered "this kicks the s*** out of playing this on my stereo".

I think I have acquired a fairly good LP playback system, better than anything I ever heard at a high-fi show anyway, but it comes nowhere near providing the presence/realness of that particular live performance. At best, I think it takes me into the sound room of a recording studio where the recording engineer is hearing it through the glass and over the monitors. No matter how good my system might be, it is always obvious to me that I am hearing electronically reproduced sound, not live.

I appreciate that there are members of this forum who are in a completely different league than I, who might have systems capable of convincing a blind-folded me that I were listening to a live performance, I have just not yet experienced such.

morricab · May 18, 2022

PeterA said:
Morricab, that is a wonderfully written OP. You really describe well the sound and experience of listening to those two cellists up close in an intimate setting. It would be great to see a photo, if you happened to take one. I like the descriptions of how visceral it was, and the tonal density and sense of presence. The sound and music, filling the room. This is what live music in such a setting is all about. I marvel at the sheer vibrational energy resonating out of a cello. I, too, have never heard a system do that. However, I have heard a very small number of systems come pretty close to reproducing the tone, presence and energy of a cello, at least enough to be convincing and believable. Two were cones driven by SS. One particularly poor system was a pair of Altec horns driven by SETs. We all have different examples.

I was excited to read your opening post and had hoped this thread would encourage a discussion about "Live music, Tone and Presence." What are they and why are so many systems disappointing? We hear these things when listening to live acoustic music and we have heard some systems succeed and many fail at portraying these characteristics. There have been many posts in this fascinating thread in just one day, but sadly, they are mostly about the old topic of SS versus tube, or SET versus push-pull, or horns versus cones. Is this how you would like your thread to develop? I don't have a lot of experience listening to many different systems or component typologies, but I can say that I have heard tube, SS, cone and horn based systems convincingly portray "tone, presence, and dynamics", to quote Jim Smith's triumvirate.

I agree that many systems get these wrong, but I no longer think it is about typology. I think it is more about the quality of the design, and how the system and room are assembled and set up. I have learned to be increasingly open minded about what kind of components or system can produce a convincingly musical experience. Hearing those cellos as you did, gives you a good basis on which to judge a system's success. Thank you for sharing that listening experience with us.

Hi Peter,
Was looking back on this thread now a few years later, how would you consider your comments in light of your "road to Damascus" events? I think our ideas on this topic have converged more than diverged, or?
Cheers,
Brad

PeterA · May 18, 2022

morricab said:
Hi Peter,
Was looking back on this thread now a few years later, how would you consider your comments in light of your "road to Damascus" events? I think our ideas on this topic have converged more than diverged, or?
Cheers,
Brad

Hi Brad, I agree that our ideas have converged a bit in the last six years. Cello has always been one of my favorite instruments and a great test for system quality. I had little exposure to SETs or horns then so I more fully appreciate their strengths now. However, I continue to think other approaches can be quite successful. When I inserted the Lamm hybrid and the Micro TT into my system with those Magicos, it was pretty darn good.

It is interesting to go back and see these old posts. Our Boston Audio group was still in tact and talking then. Each member had posts in the first few pages of this thread and we had similar ideas then. I am grateful for the increased exposure I’ve had, both to music and to different systems, in the years since. I have a much broader perspective now and appreciation for what is possible with reproduced music and how to achieve it.

microstrip · May 18, 2022

Rensselaer said:
(....) I appreciate that there are members of this forum who are in a completely different league than I, who might have systems capable of convincing a blind-folded me that I were listening to a live performance, I have just not yet experienced such.

We can have different perspectives on this matter. Stereo sound reproductions can not and does not aim at reproducing a physical fac-simile of real sound.

If we accept that a system can convince us in such imaginary test we risk that some people will tell us we have poor hearing and only incomplete experience with real music.

However if we say that no system will be able to convince us we will be told that we have not experience enough with great systems.

The point is that the stereo illusion depends on the experience and knowledge of the audiophile to help fooling him. IMHO using challenging recordings no normal listener will find the experiences indistinguishable unless he really wants to do it.

Kingrex · May 18, 2022

I try to have my system play natural. To present notes in a way you feel the instruments and the emotions from the artist. But I have never considered I could create the illusion I'm in a theater with live music. I have compared it to a strummed guitar in my room. I use that as a bunchmark.

More what I strive for is a low noise floor that does not sanitize the sound. I want to hear deep but not erase important details such as clues to the venue. I like to differentiate individual singers in a chorus or separate violin when multiple are in a concerto. But I have not thought about attempting to fool myself its live. I have deeply invested my money and time into making my living/listening room a place to relax and take in wonderful reproduce music. To take all the strain out of playback at moderate high levels where it performs best. And to have it pleasing when played very low.

Of course we all have our individual goals on what we expect out of life.

cjfrbw · May 18, 2022

Rensselaer said:
I think I have acquired a fairly good LP playback system, better than anything I ever heard at a high-fi show anyway, but it comes nowhere near providing the presence/realness of that particular live performance.

You really need to stop listening to live music. It's really a buzz kill for the audiophile thing.

andromedaaudio · May 18, 2022

Tittle of the thread is wrong , it should be :

Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong And horns get right

microstrip · May 18, 2022

cjfrbw said:
You really need to stop listening to live music. It's really a buzz kill for the audiophile thing.

No problem. Audiophiles can close their eyes and imagine their room and speakers while listening to live music. Coughing people are promoted to pops and clicks, unfortunately there is no equivalent to cellphones.

hvbias · May 22, 2022

I think one major issue that isn't as much down to the systems are the recordings themselves. I am so happy that I'm able to see classical music again. A couple of weeks ago it was Gautier Capucon and Jean-Yves Thibaudet. I fully expected one of my favorite 20th century pieces (Debussy's Cello Sonata) to be a bit underwhelming as Gautier Capucon sounds a bit too modern (light vibrato, a bit detached) on the recordings I've heard him in. Except here it was a jaw dropping moving performance that was just shy of the truly great one (Maurice Gendron), played with real feeling and emotion. I was in the second row.

I've heard G. Capucon's CDs one the largest Acapella horns, Audio Note, Rockports, etc and none of them can capture how he sounded live leading me to believe this is a recording issue. I use Picquet rebuilt ESL57s/Atma-spheres which are pretty accurate with regard to tonal accuracy and he sounds pretty similar on these.

rando · May 22, 2022

hvbias said:
I think one major issue that isn't as much down to the systems are the recordings themselves.

As soloists and performers, often exceptional live where they exude fresh ideas. Exact opposite of their contracted performances for the microphones. Offerings outside the major's splashy distribution channels have been edging towards becoming sole repository of recorded musicianship for years now.

A few labels, Erato for instance, operate inside the ownership umbrella with more vision applied towards displaying outright superiority of their top artists while meeting the directives placed upon them. Others have gone the direction of 'Andris cycles through a piece on stage once for every 100 hours he cycles through ways to further craft his sound in the editing room' studio magic of the most corporate production values. Or worse, neo-classical removing any borders to examining the electronic music they currently sell.

Fred Crane · May 22, 2022

hvbias said:
I think one major issue that isn't as much down to the systems are the recordings themselves. I am so happy that I'm able to see classical music again. A couple of weeks ago it was Gautier Capucon and Jean-Yves Thibaudet. I fully expected one of my favorite 20th century pieces (Debussy's Cello Sonata) to be a bit underwhelming as Gautier Capucon sounds a bit too modern (light vibrato, a bit detached) on the recordings I've heard him in. Except here it was a jaw dropping moving performance that was just shy of the truly great one (Maurice Gendron), played with real feeling and emotion. I was in the second row.

I've heard G. Capucon's CDs one the largest Acapella horns, Audio Note, Rockports, etc and none of them can capture how he sounded live leading me to believe this is a recording issue. I use Picquet rebuilt ESL57s/Atma-spheres which are pretty accurate with regard to tonal accuracy and he sounds pretty similar on these.

Love the re-built Quads. Hard to get the ultimate space and dynamics on any speaker while also getting the coherence and tone. They're out there though. I'm not saying they're as you hear things in a great hall, but you can get so much of it. Regardless, there's no substitute for live music. It's a direct, personal communication.

Jono · May 23, 2022

I tend to agree that a good SET will sound more like live music.Although the Bakoon SS amps are also very convincing in that regard.They do not sound like other SS amps.They do not sound quite like SETs either but do seem to have the essence of a really good SET.Although I believe the treble is better than any SET I have heard.One reviewer has mentioned how they do tintinnabulation.Piano sounds especially real.

This is also an interesting insight.Perhaps it really comes down to current drive versus voltage drive ?

Amplifiers: Solid State amps verses Valve amps

Understanding the difference between Valve and Solid State Amplifiers

education.lenardaudio.com

bonzo75 · May 23, 2022

cjfrbw said:
You really need to stop listening to live music. It's really a buzz kill for the audiophile thing.

Audiophiles are best suited for states like Indiana etc where you get a lot of space at low prices and no concert halls. Nothing to do in town as well so might as well fill up the extra space with some flashy stuff

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