Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,535
5,062
1,228
Switzerland
Last night I went to a very nice house concert in a house in one of the nicest parts of Zürich. The house was of modern design and the room for concert was fairly large at about 6 x 10 meters (20 x 33 feet) with high ceilings. THe concert was a duo with two cellos. Both cellists were professionals from the Tonhalle Orchestra and so quite skilled if not at the uppermost levels of the soloist world. The pieces ranged from largely unknown to me to a final piece that was quite demanding from Paganinni (not sure if it was originally written for cello or transcripted).

Anyway, my wife and I sat in the front row, which was only 2.5 meters or so from the performers themselves but slightly "off-axis" from the center. The music ranged from light and playful to "hard and heavy" or deeply romantic. So, quite a wide variety of sound and styles and technical diffculty. It was clear that some of the pieces required an extreme amount of concentration whereas other pieces they were able to feed off of each other in a playful manner. Really great stuff!

Now, there were two really deep take home audiophile messages from this concert that had nothing to do with the musicians playing or the compositions but really the sound itself and the impact that sound created.

1) The tone of the two instruments was FAR richer sounding than 99% of the high end systems I have heard, either at people's homes or shows. This was driven home to me more than usual because we were sitting so close (I could easily hear the breathing of the cellist closeest to us). You expect a certain richness in a big hall when you sit in the middle to the back of the hall due to absoprtion of high frequencies. There was none of that here.

The other important point about tone was the disctinct and laughably easy differentiation between the two performers cellos. Now, this might also have to do with how they played their instruments but it seemed to be more the instrument (or bow) themselves. What do I mean? The cellist closest to us (by closer I mean about 50-75 cm closer) had a warmer tone that was also somehow less complex and more midrange centered. It also projected a bit more but was more tonally homogeneous and therefore somewhat less interesting. The other cello (ist) had more growl in the low notes with complex overtones in the lower strings and likewise a bit more "bite" in the upper frequencies, which were again more complex. It gave a more "hear into" quality on her solos. Mids were a bit less projected but still more interesting from the complexity of the tone.

Resolution was of course the real thing. Every nuance of their playing revealed, every squeak, squeal, fingering etc. all there without hardness.

This level of tonal differentiation is VERY difficult to get right with hifi. I have never heard a system with a SS amp get it right...ever. Very few tube systems get it right either though and none of the push/pull type from what I have heard so far.

So, next time you hear someone say that an all tube system sounds too rich for reality don't believe them in most cases because the reality for real instruments in a real space IS rich and harmonically complex...even up close where you get more high frequency "bite" to the sound. The problem with most tube systems is that the tonal richness often comes at the price of transparency and resolution of details. They get tone right but lose the nuance.

2) The presence of the music was THERE! It was in your lap, in your face and then fading back to the performers during quiet passages. It lived and breathed. It didn't sit back in space, it invaded your space but with all the richness and resolution without hardness described above. This palpability is nearly unprecedented in hifi playback. Of course you need a recording that is intimate (most small ensemble recordings are rather made this way). A big orchestra recording is often going to have a more distant perspective...just like when you sit mid-hall.

Small ensembles in the spaces they were designed for can generate powerful waves of music and it is immersive and present in the room with you. It is more visceral than going to a big concert I have found, unless you sit very close as well to the orchestra. For example, I was at a concert the week before at Tonhalle to hear Mussorgsky "Pictures at an Exhibition" and we sat in the mid-back of the hall. It was powerful sounding and moving but from a more distant perspective. The horns did not land in your lap.

I have heard very few systems that do the presence I heard last night even remotely close to that live performance. The closest thing it reminded me of was the Schubert Festival in London where we heard quartet and quintet in the home of a London doctor. That was equally visceral.

This presence is one of the things that horns seem to do better than dynamic speakers. Whether it is the sensitivity or the directivity of the speakers it is hard to say...probably a comination of these and other factors. The presence I heard last night I have never heard with a dynamic speaker but I did hear it from time to time with big electrostats. I have also never heard it with a system driven with SS electronics...they tend to paint a more distant perspective of the soundfield and lack the dynamic bursts to capture that pulsing sound.


It seems to me now that in some ways, there are many systems that have even more trouble getting this presence, dynamic "breathing" and tone right of a small, two instrument, ensemble than do to recreate a nice panoramic orchestral sound (not a lifelike SPL mind you). It is severe even because most fall down on both the tone and differentiation of tone as well as the presence and microdynamics. Most are flat and gray compared to what I heard sitting 2-3 meters from the performers.

I have seen many people argue that SETs make an unrealistic sound in terms of tone and "projection" of the sound...artifacts and distortion some people say. And yet, they get closer to the sound I heard yesterday (coupled with horns in particular) live than any other technology I have heard. I have laid out technical reasons why but the best is just listening and realizing what the real deal sounds like and which technology gets us closer to that. tonhalle-orchester_zuerich_c-priska-ketterer_1.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,517
1,448
Thank you, Morricab. Another great post...will re-read again later. FWIW, I agree with the comment in particular about tubes getting this 'tonal density' right but sometimes at the expense of other things. I feel that tonal density is incredibly important, and agree in my experience about tubes/tonal density. For me, tonal density is one of my top 2-3 priorities, and while I am now Class A SS, it was only after an 18 months search for available high-powered tube amps that i came across Gryphon and settled down. Partly because all-out assault bass power, depth, slam and scale were also within the top 2-3 priorities and I wanted long-term flexibility to drive the Wilsons or more difficult-to-drive speakers. Perhaps venturing further afield in tubes than I did would well bring me greater tonal depth...and someday perhaps we will...but for now its more room treatment.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,535
5,062
1,228
Switzerland
Thank you, Morricab. Another great post...will re-read again later. FWIW, I agree with the comment in particular about tubes getting this 'tonal density' right but sometimes at the expense of other things. I feel that tonal density is incredibly important, and agree in my experience about tubes/tonal density. For me, tonal density is one of my top 2-3 priorities, and while I am now Class A SS, it was only after an 18 months search for available high-powered tube amps that i came across Gryphon and settled down. Partly because all-out assault bass power, depth, slam and scale were also within the top 2-3 priorities and I wanted long-term flexibility to drive the Wilsons or more difficult-to-drive speakers. Perhaps venturing further afield in tubes than I did would well bring me greater tonal depth...and someday perhaps we will...but for now its more room treatment.


Room treatment will not get you tonal depth...it might help a bit with focus and presence though. Big Wilsons are one of the better dynamic speakers for delivering presence...probably a big part of their popularity and appeal. Your speakers work well with a mid-powered SET (20-40 watts) given their relatively high sensitivity (about 95db/watt) and relatively easy load. Unless your room is huge and you sit far away you don't need the power of a Colosseum or high powered tube amp. I did the experiment a couple of times with an X1 MkI in a moderate sized room and a X1 MKIII in a big room. Both times it was very satisfying. Also, I have done this with the big Focal Grande Utopia Be with the electronic damping in a large room. A 30 watt SET embarrased 400 watt monos from Electrocompaniet.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,796
4,550
1,213
Greater Boston
This presence is one of the things that horns seem to do better than dynamic speakers. Whether it is the sensitivity or the directivity of the speakers it is hard to say...probably a comination of these and other factors. The presence I heard last night I have never heard with a dynamic speaker but I did hear it from time to time with big electrostats. I have also never heard it with a system driven with SS electronics...they tend to paint a more distant perspective of the soundfield and lack the dynamic bursts to capture that pulsing sound.

Great report, Morricab. Regarding your above statement, I have heard impressive presence on solo cello from dynamic speakers driven by SS amps (I myself am a tube guy):

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12853-Sublime-Sound&p=369502&viewfull=1#post369502
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,517
1,448
Room treatment will not get you tonal depth...it might help a bit with focus and presence though. Big Wilsons are one of the better dynamic speakers for delivering presence...probably a big part of their popularity and appeal. Your speakers work well with a mid-powered SET (20-40 watts) given their relatively high sensitivity (about 95db/watt) and relatively easy load. Unless your room is huge and you sit far away you don't need the power of a Colosseum or high powered tube amp. I did the experiment a couple of times with an X1 MkI in a moderate sized room and a X1 MKIII in a big room. Both times it was very satisfying. Also, I have done this with the big Focal Grande Utopia Be with the electronic damping in a large room. A 30 watt SET embarrased 400 watt monos from Electrocompaniet.

Thank you...yes, i agree with your assessment of tonal depth not necessarily coming from room treatment...i am just focusing on that for now because the system itself is 'fully evolved' in its current state. the room treatment eliminates some echo which is causing some blur in the signal.
I also agree that big Wilsons will work with high current, mid-powered SETs...Lamm comes to mind from what everyone tells me. The key is that I also wanted long-term flexibility since I also like the Rockport Arrakis. As time has gone on and satisfaction settled in nicely over the last 2+ years, that is 'calling me' less now, and so it might be that i experiment with mid-powered SETs. But again, i think it is not for some time.

Thanks again for your valued insights...always appreciate reading them.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,535
5,062
1,228
Switzerland
Great report, Morricab. Regarding your above statement, I have heard impressive presence on solo cello from dynamic speakers driven by SS amps (I myself am a tube guy):

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12853-Sublime-Sound&p=369502&viewfull=1#post369502

Interesting and thx for the link. To be honest, I have yet to hear a Pass Labs electronic chain deliver what you described. It has always been underwhelming in particular dynamically.

Not doubting your experience but so far I have never heard Pass live up to the promise.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,643
13,671
2,710
London
The best cello I heard was on Mike's system.

Not only the bass, but also the range of notes, and the low to high, dynamic range, the intervals. While I do agree a SET can in most cases produce tone better, many horns especially smaller ones, because of the mishmash of drivers and crossovers, can struggle to do cello
 

Kingsrule

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2011
1,444
704
1,430
morricab

Nice post and observation but somewhat irrelevant because unless u know exactly how the recording engineer wanted the recording to sound u can NEVER be certain of the intent. Having heard hundreds of systems I can say either 1. Most recordings are from a perspective of distance or 2. Most systems are set up with what I call a "thin" perspective. Very rarely have I encountered a near field listening perspective. I am listening to Elinor Frye as I type and I can't hear any breathing........
 

Hi-FiGuy

Member Sponsor
Feb 23, 2015
2,242
763
385
Such an excellent post, well done.
I struggle with classical music on Hi-Fi systems of any level. Some systems come very close but still leave me feeling somehow empty.
Maybe it comes from several of my friends being performers and being treated to best seat in the house situations (many years ago) that I can't hang with electronic reproduction of so many acoustic instruments.
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
3,079
774
1,700
Mass
Morricab, great post. I agree with everything you mention. I heard a cello (and violin) for the first time in a chamber setting and was blown away by the body, presence, detail etc. It was eye opening.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,535
5,062
1,228
Switzerland
morricab

Nice post and observation but somewhat irrelevant because unless u know exactly how the recording engineer wanted the recording to sound u can NEVER be certain of the intent. Having heard hundreds of systems I can say either 1. Most recordings are from a perspective of distance or 2. Most systems are set up with what I call a "thin" perspective. Very rarely have I encountered a near field listening perspective. I am listening to Elinor Frye as I type and I can't hear any breathing........

Actually most recordings are rather close miked. Sometimes the microphone is literally inside the piano!

I think that most systems are thin sounding and thus the relevance of my post. If it sounds thin then it is likely to be wrong. Even up close (like I sat yesterday) was not bright and thin nor should up close recordings unless poorly made.

What is lacking beyond tone though is the sheer presence and projection of the sound. This is found on most decent classical and jazz records but rarely conveyed.

that makes it rather relevant...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alrainbow

Believe High Fidelity

[Industry Expert]
Nov 19, 2015
1,666
321
355
Hutto TX
ibelieveinhifi.com
This...

This level of tonal differentiation is VERY difficult to get right with hifi. I have never heard a system with a SS amp get it right...ever.

And this....

This presence is one of the things that horns seem to do better than dynamic speakers..... I have also never heard it with a system driven with SS electronics...they tend to paint a more distant perspective of the soundfield and lack the dynamic bursts to capture that pulsing sound

No truer words ever spoken. While I like many dynamic loudspeakers I would never want to recommend one as an end-of-the-road to someone looking for the real life experience of the event.

The bite and sheer fluidity of the music in real life vs reproduced is something I have only ever heard on a horn. Can't go back....
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
3,079
774
1,700
Mass
Actually most recordings are rather close miked. Sometimes the microphone is literally inside the piano!

I find most modern classical recordings (orchestral and chamber) have too much room sound or reverb - it sure sounds like they are not close miked. Makes me sad, I prefer a more dry 'close' sound that you get with the 50's recordings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alrainbow

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,796
4,550
1,213
Greater Boston
I find most modern classical recordings (orchestral and chamber) have too much room sound or reverb - it sure sounds like they are not close miked. Makes me sad, I prefer a more dry 'close' sound that you get with the 50's recordings.

I like drier, closer sounding recordings too. As for recordings having too much reverb, that is no contradiction with them being close-miked. As I understand it, engineers close-mike for emphasis of individual features, but then mix all those inputs with a general mike feed for ambience and overall impression.
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
3,079
774
1,700
Mass
I like drier, closer sounding recordings too. As for recordings having too much reverb, that is no contradiction with them being close-miked. As I understand it, engineers close-mike for emphasis of individual features, but then mix all those inputs with a general mike feed for ambience and overall impression.

You're probably right, that makes sense.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
Interesting and thx for the link. To be honest, I have yet to hear a Pass Labs electronic chain deliver what you described. It has always been underwhelming in particular dynamically.

Not doubting your experience but so far I have never heard Pass live up to the promise.

I wouldn't generalize about solid state as you have. For one, I can also attest to the presence that PeterA's system can render.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,643
13,671
2,710
London
I wouldn't generalize about solid state as you have. For one, I can also attest to the presence that PeterA's system can render.

Exactly. I like valves, but the best systems I have heard are SS. However I have heard more no. of good valve systems as opposed to good SS systems. I think what happens is, when one has the room, the dynamics and bass of SS can be combined with the tone and decay provided by the room. Also, the transparency of SS can allow the cartridge + recording to flow through with high tone. The good SS amps are expensive though.

When one has a smaller room and budget, valves provide a better decay, body, and tone that cheaper SS cannot. In a compromised system, I find valves and small speakers more musical.

Unfortunately people on the forum get carried away with trying to push their preference over being open minded.
 

Kingsrule

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2011
1,444
704
1,430
I find most modern classical recordings (orchestral and chamber) have too much room sound or reverb - it sure sounds like they are not close miked. Makes me sad, I prefer a more dry 'close' sound that you get with the 50's recordings.[/QUOTE


This...

What u heard in a living room with 3 instruments has nothing to do with 99.9% of the recordings u are trying to relate into this setting.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
Exactly. I like valves, but the best systems I have heard are SS. However I have heard more no. of good valve systems as opposed to good SS systems. I think what happens is, when one has the room, the dynamics and bass of SS can be combined with the tone and decay provided by the room. Also, the transparency of SS can allow the cartridge + recording to flow through with high tone. The good SS amps are expensive though.

When one has a smaller room and budget, valves provide a better decay, body, and tone that cheaper SS cannot. In a compromised system, I find valves and small speakers more musical.

Unfortunately people on the forum get carried away with trying to push their preference over being open minded.

I agree with everything you said, especially the highlighted sentence
 

jeff1225

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2012
3,013
3,265
1,410
51

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing