Aurender W20 vs my hot-rodded PC server

dminches · Dec 5, 2016

Elberoth said:
To give you a better idea what it takes to get to the level of Aurender W-20:

And I that does not show my NAS drive, which should also be included on the pic !

Adam, very nice. I used to own an N100H and the computer setup I have which is veryclose to yours sounds a lot better. It is really hard to justify spending $15-$20k for a W-20 or SGM given how close one can get with what you have assembled. Plus, the DIY setup can be continually tweaked (if that's your thing which it clearly is!).

Elberoth · Dec 5, 2016

No wonder the $18k W-20 sounds much better than their $4k model !

My server build wasn't exactly cheap either. We are talking about ~$6k in parts alone + dozens of hours spent on tweeking and lot's of aggraviation when troubleshooting stuff.

That is still way cheaper than the $18k W-20, but I bet none of the Aurender W-20 owners would have any regrets. The custom server is a proposition for a completely different kind of customer, with many strings attached.

dminches · Dec 5, 2016

Elberoth said:
No wonder the $18k W-20 sounds much better than their $4k model !

My server build wasn't exactly cheap either. We are talking about ~$6k in parts alone + dozens of hours spent on tweeking and lot's of aggraviation when troubleshooting stuff.

That is still way cheaper than the $18k W-20, but I bet none of the Aurender W-20 owners would have any regrets. The custom server is a proposition for a completely different kind of customer, with many strings attached.

For sure.

BTW, the Bakoon product is discontinued. Do you know what others are using as a replacement? I am currently powering my SSD off the 5V Teradak rail. I don't have the patience to use an Anker battery which requires separate recharging.

marslo · Dec 5, 2016

Blue58 said:
Hello Mariusz,
Well, I finally gave in and sold my precious LaFontaine to someone who will treasure it for years to come.
The main reason is that I was seldom using it to play CD/SACDs.

The SGM 2015/T+DAC, after a few tweaks such as data only Sablon USB, ideal footers, balanced output and chosen settings within HQPlayer to match my amps and speakers, is giving me the best sound I've heard from my system. Transparency and soundstage are what sets it apart whilst still maintaining the musicality of LaFontaine.

Once you ge the B7 back try the SGM2015 again and possible compare to the full GG.
There really is something special in upsampling to DSD512.

Next step, removing the T+A volume control from the equation.

Plus, we want to hear more about your progress with the Duo XDs.

Cheers
Blue58

Hi Blue,

First of all congrats on your SGM and T+A 8 Dac, great combo indeed.
I follow all your posts about the new setup and I am sure it sounds wonderful.
If I had no Aurender I would get probably a SGM , I liked very much the presentation by Geoff Armstrong in Monaco last summer.
I admit I have a kind of " faiblesse" for La Fontaine because since 5 years I was using it as an usb DAC and only occasionally as a sacd player.
I still consider hires pcm from La Fontaine a bit better than first R2R version of my B7 and this is why I decided recently to upgrade it . Native DSD is what I like best from my B7.

As far as my Duo Mezzo are concerned I am more than satisfied, after 9 months they begin to sing but the first month during burning up period were a bit tough.

Cheers,
Mariusz

PS Sorry Adam for OT.

EuroDriver · Dec 6, 2016

Keith_W said:
How do you use HQPlayer with a Kodi front end? As far as I am aware, the only front ends possible for HQP are Roon, muso, and Alchemy desktop.

Geoff Armstrong wrote a Kodi add-on, which writes files to the folder which HQ Player reads, and passes commands to HQ Player via HQ Player control.exe

Geoff has also written Apple scripts which has iTunes sending files and commands to HQ Player. This was all done in the pre-roon days

Keith_W · Dec 6, 2016

EuroDriver said:
Geoff Armstrong wrote a Kodi add-on, which writes files to the folder which HQ Player reads, and passes commands to HQ Player via HQ Player control.exe

Where can I get this addon? I did a google search - nothing. I went to some Kodi addon sites and did a search - nothing.

EuroDriver · Dec 6, 2016

Keith_W said:
Where can I get this addon? I did a google search - nothing. I went to some Kodi addon sites and did a search - nothing.

Hi Keith,

You can contact Geoffrey Armstrong at soundgalleries@monaco.mc

Keith_W · Dec 6, 2016

Thank you. I actually managed to find the plugin through more intensive Googling. There is a thread on Computer Audiophile here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f...our-software-player-choice-23987/index19.html

dminches · Dec 19, 2016

Adam, did you find a big difference between powering your USB card with the Uptone LPS vs the Teradak? It is a shame that an $800 power supply isn't clean enough to power the card.

slcaudiophile · Jan 2, 2017

Elberoth said:
I've been playing with PC audio for the past 5 years. I've started with a standard CAPS v2 Lagoon server and have ended up with pretty much maxed out CAPS v4 Pipeline server:

- sever MoBo and RAM
- battery PSU for the SSD
- linear ATX PSU
- Jcat Femto USB card
- Jcat SATA cable
- Teddy Pardo PSU for the USB card
- Win Server 2012 OS
- Audiophile Optimizer 2.00
- external music HDD (NAS)

I also have UpTone Audio UltraCap LPS-1 & JS-2 PSUs, Regen, Jcat (Intona) USB isolator, Wyred Recovery etc.

So I was pretty much covered ... or so I thought.

Yesterday, I brought home the Aurender W20 for the first time and ... it sounds better. Damn. A bit fuller in the midrange. Not a night and day difference, but I prefere it over my server.

Now what ? I will have to start saving up for the W20. Or the N10, if it is really close in performance.

that is really interesting. intuitively i would thought a modded hi-end pc would sound better then a production unit. it goes to show how well some of these products are designed.

Elberoth · Jan 2, 2017

dminches said:
Adam, did you find a big difference between powering your USB card with the Uptone LPS vs the Teradak? It is a shame that an $800 power supply isn't clean enough to power the card.

I have never powered mine with Teradak - I don't have the cable needed. I was running out of MoBo power till very recently, when I switched to UpTone Audio LPS-1 supercapacitor PSU. The LPS-1 sounds better. I will need to make a comparo between that and the Teddy Pardo LPSU that I have.

sbo6 · Jan 2, 2017

EuroDriver said:
The sound quality achieved is dependant on the CPU core speed. Jussi recommends a minimum of 3.6 GHz. The SGM CPU runs at a clock speed of 4.2 GHz. However as you go to faster core speeds, RF noise goes up. If we take a stock PC with a i7 6700 K processor, the sound you get at 4.2 GHz clock speed is noticeably worse than sound at a clock speed of 3.6 GHz. The extreme measure which are taken to get the RF noise under control in the SGM allow the benefit of higher clock speeds to shine through.

What I have been told is that CPU's are not precise in their operation, and error checking will often trigger a process to be repeated. A more stable clock for the CPU reduces the error rate.

Can I ask - If you are basing audio performance on CPU clock speed with the premise that higher clock speeds = higher levels of RFI then why wouldn't ~2GHz be preferable?

Also, all CPUs are not "precise" in that they operate with concurrent threads commonly executing unnecessarily instructions. A method that processors employ to mitigate this is branch prediction.

sbo6 · Jan 2, 2017

Elberoth said:
Well, it seems there is still hope

I added the UpTone Audio JS-2 and UltraCap LPS-1 PSU combo to feed my Jcat Femto USB card (it was powered internally by not-so-clean power from the MoBo before) and now my PC server and Aurender W20 are neck to neck. I have been switching back and forth the whole day, and I cannot say I have a preference for one or the other. They are very, very close. I would not be able to tell them apart in a blind test.

Which is a great sign, as I still have the Core Mode and HQ Player up my sleeve to try (I've been using the Jriver 21 in bitperfect (Bitstreaming) mode playing DSD files vs the Aurender).

But still - if you consider how many boxes I have now (the server itself + 4 (FOUR !) outboard PSUs + Synology 1815plus NAS) - the Aurender W20 is still a great all-in-one solution for those who have the funds and are not into the geek stuff.

Honestly, if you have the money and would rather spend your time listening to music than solving the hardware issues, the Aurender W20 is still way to go.

Congrats, that's some accomplishment going up against an uber - high end purpose built Music server. I need to catch up.

Can I ask - have you compared your music server with a high quality transport? As I continue to improve my Music server it still can't compare to the audio quality of the transport in my Esoteric K-03.

Lastly, have you thought about trying the MC-3+ Smart Clock USB?

EuroDriver · Jan 2, 2017

sbo6 said:
Can I ask - If you are basing audio performance on CPU clock speed with the premise that higher clock speeds = higher levels of RFI then why wouldn't ~2GHz be preferable?

To do achieve good sonic results with HQ Player doing 16/44 PCM to DSD512, a minimum core speed of 3.4 GHz is recommended. This does generate more RF, which needs to be mitigated, as well as heat which has to be dissipated. These are the drivers that have resulted in the SGM weighing close to 32 kg !

Also, all CPUs are not "precise" in that they operate with concurrent threads commonly executing unnecessarily instructions. A method that processors employ to mitigate this is branch prediction.

Yes well known. However the author of HQ Player has told us that speculative execution is only done at a low level of code and does not significantly affect the sonic results delivered by HQ Player

sbo6 · Jan 2, 2017

To do achieve good sonic results with HQ Player doing 16/44 PCM to DSD512, a minimum core speed of 3.4 GHz is recommended. This does generate more RF, which needs to be mitigated, as well as heat which has to be dissipated. These are the drivers that have resulted in the SGM weighing close to 32 kg !

Why do you need a faster processor especially if it generates more RFI? Also, processor heat is related not only to processor speed but more closely follows to processor families and mfr. binning.

Yes well known. However the author of HQ Player has told us that speculative execution is only done at a low level of code and does not significantly affect the sonic results delivered by HQ Player

Also, all SW requests bubble down to low level machine code, there is no exception including HQPlayer so I'm not sure I get your point.

bonzo75 · Jan 3, 2017

Adam, I am interested in your opinion on lower models of Aurender

EuroDriver · Jan 3, 2017

sbo6 said:
Why do you need a faster processor especially if it generates more RFI? Also, processor heat is related not only to processor speed but more closely follows to processor families and mfr. binning.

Also, all SW requests bubble down to low level machine code, there is no exception including HQPlayer so I'm not sure I get your point.

Instead of getting second hand information from a layman, suggest you pose your questions to Miska directly on the Computer Audiophile, on the HQ Player thread in the Software Forum

Elberoth · Jan 3, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Adam, I am interested in your opinion on lower models of Aurender

The only one I had at home (beside the W20) was the original S10.

Hopefully, I will have the another W20 at home in not too distant future - I will borrow the N10 from my dealer do do a proper comparo.

Legolas · Jan 21, 2017

EuroDriver said:
The Aurenda W-20 is a very good bit perfect music server. It has a nice Linux OS, and a customized version of the popular MPD player. Aurenda have also done a good job on their iPad remote app.

We have many customers who used to have the W20, but now use the SGM for the following reasons

- Roon for music discovery delivers a very rich and exciting exploration experience

- the large majority of PCM DAC's benefit from the look ahead processing of HQ Player with its A>D artifact detection and elimination and intelligent upsampling. We even get positive results with the dCS Vivaldi, and Chord DAVE

- for DSD capable DAC's, HQ Player's PCM > DSD upsampling and conversion routines are streaks ahead of all the competion we have been able to uncover. This takes a lot of CPU power and can not be done on low CPU power servers

- The SGM's dual choke power supply shines through as extremely quiet, even when the AC is coming from an electrically noisy industrial estate in Hong Kong. We have yet to find a AC environment where the W-20's battery power supply gives it an edge over the SGM in blackness and dark background over USB.

- in the test of the SGM and W20 to the MSB IV held in Hong Kong, the software configurations for the SGM were not the best available, so the SGM is now ready for a rematch

The software, operating system and BIOS setting combinations are almost infinite, but we are really honing in on the sweet posts for each top rank DAC, and we tune the software settings to match the system's sonics during the in home installation process

Can I believe that? Sounds like a magazine review and pushing a product sold by the dealer. Is that ok if they say dealer in the signature? Maybe, but owners please post.

EuroDriver · Jan 21, 2017

astrostar59 said:
Can I believe that? Sounds like a magazine review and pushing a product sold by the dealer. Is that ok if they say dealer in the signature? Maybe, but owners please post.

Quite a few don't believe which is why we do home demos

However read the thread started by Mike Lavigne in the General Forum, and the SGM thread started by tsaett in this Forum which has quite a few SGM owner reports

You can all read today's post by Jerry after he installed some new Furutech plugs at Mike Lavigne's

Over at 6 moons, Maria and Henk gave the SGM a Blue Moon award

I do push very strongly what a incredible DSP job HQ Player does. I feel this is needed as a lot of people are very skeptical about upsampling and format conversion.

Aurender W20 vs my hot-rodded PC server

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