Wire for subwoofer hook up

NorthStar · Dec 3, 2016

Folsom said:
Larger wire is unnecessary. I don't see the value in silver, there just isn't a requirement for anything special to achieve the best possible results for this specific job. Do as Gary said, twist it, or get twisted wire.

The twisted pair may work here. http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_kimber_twst.html (varistrnad) or twisted 20ga here http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_dhlabs.html

I would have to agree with that, from audio connections wisdom. But I am not an expert when it comes to cables, sizes, better audio signal transmission, geometry, best speaker/subwoofer wires, impedance, sync between main speakers and subs, etc.
From what I understand, and also did in the past, using this type of speaker connection; I used small gauge speaker wires from the amplifier's speaker binding posts to the subwoofer's own speaker's binding posts.

But as others have said, if you can use preamp outs they're a much better choice. But also if there's no preamp outs, I prefer to use signal level input with resistors on the cable from amplifier output; sounds a lot cleaner usually.

That would be best of course if the preamp has that facility.
_______

Question: In today's ultra high end stereo hi-fi sound systems, why not all high end preamps don't have the accommodation to add a subwoofer or two, from the line level?
If sound quality is priority in the passion of music listening among hi-end calibrated audiophiles, this seems like a very reasonable option to me.
But! Audio signal integrity in its all virgin purity must dictate the shortest audio signal path with the less detour possible. ...No complex connection, no added up to the audio transmission signal, no nothing that can interfere or add noise.
That's probably why we hardly see added subwoofers in the ultra hi-end audio community; the loudspeakers are already full range, clean 20Hz or even lower, with large drivers or integrated subwoofer columns with their own integrated amplification. ...The top guns.
But even other top guns have no subs, no integrated amplification, no active crossovers, no EQ, no DSP, no nothing in their full range loudspeakers; I can name many many hi-end speaker's companies. And DSP Room EQ is a big No No from some hi-end audio manufacturers (here too I can name few, a fair bunch); they are rather advocating acoustic room treatments to achieve the perfect natural pure sound quality/integrity to the signal source.
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Bonus:

But yes, using speaker wires @ the speaker's level when adding a subwoofer or two; I didn't yet see advice in using large gauge "king cobra snake" wires for this application.

But! If the demand is there, and people are starting to use more and more that type of wiring connection; there are many hi-end audio cable companies out there ready to deliver superior cables with superior sound quality from better construction, copper purity (9N), pure solid silver and gold and titanium, better cable dressing, dielectric, best geometry, solid fidelity, battery activated networks, optical light speed proprietary characteristic, integrated equalization for the the low frequencies (from 5Hz to 100Hz), all the things that look and sound definitely superior, with all the necessary and essential features. ...And with a price to match, of course. But money is irrelevant, only the sound counts, and only the best sound. - Slight humorous touch here mixed with science; it feels like Saturday today.

Folsom · Dec 3, 2016

Not all preamp's have strong enough active outputs to power multiple amps. The one I've been working with to one day can power 10 per channel, which didn't seems too important until the concern for subwoofers came along.

LL21 · Dec 3, 2016

garylkoh said:
Yuck - I didn't realize that Velodyne would put flip tap speaker inputs on the DD18!!! That's just wrong for such a good sub.

Anyway, yes - take a second set of cables from the Colosseum to the speaker inputs on the back of the Velodyne, or take a set of cables from the input binding posts of the Wilson to the Velodyne. Since the input impedance should be at least 25k ohms, it would not affect the sound of your Wilsons in any way. However, don't use a pair of speaker cables for this. Use a small twisted-pair. Max of 18awg.

Thanks, Gary! will go from Colosseum to Velodyne when we get a chance. Need to get some wire too. Have some AudioQuest Crystal speaker cables, but based on your suggestion, too thick.

RogerD · Dec 3, 2016

Gary,

I gave it a shot and your exactly right. I made the switch a little bit different and I think it worked well. The system uses 2 subs,the Velodyne FSR-18 and a custom sub that requires it's own outboard crossover and amplifier. So happens in the closet from 35 years ago I had a twisted wire pair speaker cable with lugs on one end and banana males on the other. The amplifier which is connected to the crossover happened to use banana connectors...bingo. So I tried it and now both subs are fed from the same crossover which is set at 40hz. Much better than one at 40 and the Vel at 80....it feels like Christmas already.

I never knew about the degradation that Gary so kindly pointed out. Just took it for granted that preamp line level was as good as any for a sub. This forum is great....Thanks again.

garylkoh · Dec 3, 2016

Glad it helped. Afterall, this is the What's Best Forum - not what's good enough.

LL21 · Dec 3, 2016

garylkoh said:
Yuck - I didn't realize that Velodyne would put flip tap speaker inputs on the DD18!!! That's just wrong for such a good sub.

Anyway, yes - take a second set of cables from the Colosseum to the speaker inputs on the back of the Velodyne, or take a set of cables from the input binding posts of the Wilson to the Velodyne. Since the input impedance should be at least 25k ohms, it would not affect the sound of your Wilsons in any way. However, don't use a pair of speaker cables for this. Use a small twisted-pair. Max of 18awg.

I just double-checked...they actually use 'proper speaker binding posts'...tells you how long ago i actually looked at these...probably 2 generations of Velodynes ago! Will give it a shot. thanks again.

RogerD · Dec 4, 2016

Well after me and my brother listened I switched it back to the preamp output . Too much of a loss of bass articulation. I guess there are trade offs,but it sounds wonderful. It would probably work better off the mono blocks,but maybe I'll try it later.

It's after midnight and I listened,I use to think it could get better....not anymore.

LL21 · Dec 4, 2016

RogerD said:
Well after me and my brother listened I switched it back to the preamp output . Too much of a loss of bass articulation. I guess there are trade offs,but it sounds wonderful. It would probably work better off the mono blocks,but maybe I'll try it later.

It's after midnight and I listened,I use to think it could get better....not anymore.

That was always my working assumption from many years ago when i had speaker outputs leading from the amp to the Velodyne before...at least 2 generations of Velodynes ago. When i switched to preamp output, it improved dramatically, and even the Velodyne dealer said it was designed with line level inputs in mind.

Still, i have heard many say running the bass with the same amp as the rest of the system is ideal...so does that making running cable from amp to self-powered sub 'similar' and therefore better? Or does Velodyne's speaker level input quality effectively 'undo' all of that?

RogerD · Dec 4, 2016

LL21 said:
That was always my working assumption from many years ago when i had speaker outputs leading from the amp to the Velodyne before...at least 2 generations of Velodynes ago. When i switched to preamp output, it improved dramatically, and even the Velodyne dealer said it was designed with line level inputs in mind.

Still, i have heard many say running the bass with the same amp as the rest of the system is ideal...so does that making running cable from amp to self-powered sub 'similar' and therefore better? Or does Velodyne's speaker level input quality effectively 'undo' all of that?

Lloyd, good question. The difference was so noticeable,except by me initially,when my brother sat down and listened his comment was "you ruined it,quit f'n with it" ,he was right. Although there seemed to be a more transparent midrange and highs,that I think was not the case as after listening the sound was more leaner,as it lost some necessary body. There is no doubt that the noise floor on my preamp is low,as I can hear the tape hiss on a London phase 4 recording and there is plenty of "tension" created in the music. I just think in my system the preamp connection is better. I also use Gepco microphone cable for the IC's and that is far better then the twisted wire copper cable. Will I try the connection from my mono blocks....I doubt it. Unless I try a small star circuit ground with my preamp and monoblocks,I think I have finally reached such a level of performance on my system,the chances of losing are far greater than gaining. It's time to realise that for me.

The Vel manual states that both connections give the same performance. I think it is system dependent.

LL21 · Dec 4, 2016

RogerD said:
Lloyd, good question. The difference was so noticeable,except by me initially,when my brother sat down and listened his comment was "you ruined it,quit f'n with it" ,he was right. Although there seemed to be a more transparent midrange and highs,that I think was not the case as after listening the sound was more leaner,as it lost some necessary body. There is no doubt that the noise floor on my preamp is low,as I can hear the tape hiss on a London phase 4 recording and there is plenty of "tension" created in the music. I just think in my system the preamp connection is better. I also use Gepco microphone cable for the IC's and that is far better then the twisted wire copper cable. Will I try the connection from my mono blocks....I doubt it. Unless I try a small star circuit ground with my preamp and monoblocks,I think I have finally reached such a level of performance on my system,the chances of losing are far greater than gaining. It's time to realise that for me.

The Vel manual states that both connections give the same performance. I think it is system dependent.

Thanks for being so efficient about the trial...and the responses! Lets say i will never know til i experiment myself, but I remember my experiment 2 generations ago, have now read yours...and equally know that we have just begun room treatment which (i think) is now complete as of this weekend based on the samples I have been lent temporarily at home.

So perhaps that is enough 'f'n with it' as your brother says!

Sounds like good advice! Enjoy.

RogerD · Dec 4, 2016

LL21 said:
Thanks for being so efficient about the trial...and the responses! Lets say i will never know til i experiment myself, but I remember my experiment 2 generations ago, have now read yours...and equally know that we have just begun room treatment which (i think) is now complete as of this weekend based on the samples I have been lent temporarily at home.

So perhaps that is enough 'f'n with it' as your brother says! Sounds like good advice! Enjoy.

I think your on the right track...+10

elescher · Dec 4, 2016

I am still unclear on whether it is the source side (amp binding posts v. preamp line outs) or subwoofer end (Hi pass v. Low pass filter) that is the determining factor. Probably both have influence however.....

Since I don't have a variable line out on my preamp, my only other option is to do what Folsom recommends in post #8,....... "But also if there's no preamp outs, I prefer to use signal level input with resistors on the cable from amplifier output; sounds a lot cleaner usually".

I did do some preliminary research before buying the subs and read a little on how to implement this option, but nothing really pertaining to sound. Maybe it is the best of both worlds? I can understand if you are already setup and enjoying why this may seem trivial, but since I am still in the "early" stages I want to get the best out of my investment.

LL21 · Dec 4, 2016

RogerD said:
I think your on the right track...+10

Thanks for your advice, Roger.

RogerD · Dec 4, 2016

elescher said:
I am still unclear on whether it is the source side (amp binding posts v. preamp line outs) or subwoofer end (Hi pass v. Low pass filter) that is the determining factor. Probably both have influence however.....

Since I don't have a variable line out on my preamp, my only other option is to do what Folsom recommends in post #8,....... "But also if there's no preamp outs, I prefer to use signal level input with resistors on the cable from amplifier output; sounds a lot cleaner usually".

I did do some preliminary research before buying the subs and read a little on how to implement this option, but nothing really pertaining to sound. Maybe it is the best of both worlds? I can understand if you are already setup and enjoying why this may seem trivial, but since I am still in the "early" stages I want to get the best out of my investment.

I by pass the Hi/Lo filter, as the Vel gives me that option. Every preamp should have 2 output pairs and if not...that's a shame. I use a Niles switch box to run 4 output pairs (3 are direct).http://www.ebay.com/itm/NILES-AUDIO...713674?hash=item41b92e9b8a:g:VukAAOSwImRYREVa
I use Gepco double mic cable and it works great with the Niles

I don't know if your preamp has multiple output pairs...but this might be a option. The only thing you can do is experiment and listen....and really the only way to learn. Good luck

elescher · Dec 4, 2016

RogerD said:
I by pass the Hi/Lo filter, as the Vel gives me that option. Every preamp should have 2 output pairs and if not...that's a shame. I use a Niles switch box to run 4 output pairs (3 are direct).http://www.ebay.com/itm/NILES-AUDIO...713674?hash=item41b92e9b8a:g:VukAAOSwImRYREVa
I use Gepco double mic cable and it works great with the Niles

I don't know if your preamp has multiple output pairs...but this might be a option. The only thing you can do is experiment and listen....and really the only way to learn. Good luck

Thanks Roger,
You too.

Mark Seaton · Dec 9, 2016

RogerD said:
Well after me and my brother listened I switched it back to the preamp output . Too much of a loss of bass articulation. I guess there are trade offs,but it sounds wonderful. It would probably work better off the mono blocks,but maybe I'll try it later.

It's after midnight and I listened,I use to think it could get better....not anymore.

LL21 said:
That was always my working assumption from many years ago when i had speaker outputs leading from the amp to the Velodyne before...at least 2 generations of Velodynes ago. When i switched to preamp output, it improved dramatically, and even the Velodyne dealer said it was designed with line level inputs in mind.

Still, i have heard many say running the bass with the same amp as the rest of the system is ideal...so does that making running cable from amp to self-powered sub 'similar' and therefore better? Or does Velodyne's speaker level input quality effectively 'undo' all of that?

While I understand the conceptual desire to run the subwoofer from the amplifier outputs, technically it's the least preferred connection, and one I only recommend when there are not other alternates.

Most high quality pre-amplifiers will have no trouble with the loading of a subwoofer amplifier in parallel with another amplifier. Remember that unless it's advertised otherwise, it's safe to assume that multiple preamp outputs are simply paralleled internally. Whether this happens internally or externally with a Y-connector of some form is not of great significance. Connecting the subwoofer is more akin to adding another amplifier for bi-amplification, where you would never connect the second amplifier to the speaker outputs of the first.

In the ideal there should be only very small differences, but the reality is that amplifiers don't have infinite damping factor, and when you connect your subwoofer amplifier in parallel with your speakers, you have just connected a partially microphone to the input of your subwoofer. Remember that a speaker functions in both directions where an amplifier passing current through the coil makes the speaker move, but any bass energy making the cone move creates an electrical signal in the voice coil and back to your amplifier outputs or in this case, subwoofer input!

How significant this effect may be will depend on the amplifier, length/impedance of wire connected, and greatly with the speaker connected and it's type and alignment. A deep reaching vented loudspeaker will create a greater effect than a sealed speaker with higher frequency roll off. In effect this connection creates a damped/weak feedback loop in the system. That is hardly what I would choose to set up in a high performance system where accuracy was the goal.

LL21 · Dec 9, 2016

Mark Seaton said:
While I understand the conceptual desire to run the subwoofer from the amplifier outputs, technically it's the least preferred connection, and one I only recommend when there are not other alternates.

Most high quality pre-amplifiers will have no trouble with the loading of a subwoofer amplifier in parallel with another amplifier. Remember that unless it's advertised otherwise, it's safe to assume that multiple preamp outputs are simply paralleled internally. Whether this happens internally or externally with a Y-connector of some form is not of great significance. Connecting the subwoofer is more akin to adding another amplifier for bi-amplification, where you would never connect the second amplifier to the speaker outputs of the first.

In the ideal there should be only very small differences, but the reality is that amplifiers don't have infinite damping factor, and when you connect your subwoofer amplifier in parallel with your speakers, you have just connected a partially microphone to the input of your subwoofer. Remember that a speaker functions in both directions where an amplifier passing current through the coil makes the speaker move, but any bass energy making the cone move creates an electrical signal in the voice coil and back to your amplifier outputs or in this case, subwoofer input!

How significant this effect may be will depend on the amplifier, length/impedance of wire connected, and greatly with the speaker connected and it's type and alignment. A deep reaching vented loudspeaker will create a greater effect than a sealed speaker with higher frequency roll off. In effect this connection creates a damped/weak feedback loop in the system. That is hardly what I would choose to set up in a high performance system where accuracy was the goal.

Thank you. That is good to know from a man whose name is synonymous with amazing bass! I will keep our current setup of using both preamp outs...one to the Gryphon Colosseum Amp to main Wilson speakers...and the other preamp out to the Velodyne.

Enjoying it as we speak!

DaveyF · Dec 9, 2016

Mark Seaton said:
While I understand the conceptual desire to run the subwoofer from the amplifier outputs, technically it's the least preferred connection, and one I only recommend when there are not other alternates.

Most high quality pre-amplifiers will have no trouble with the loading of a subwoofer amplifier in parallel with another amplifier. Remember that unless it's advertised otherwise, it's safe to assume that multiple preamp outputs are simply paralleled internally. Whether this happens internally or externally with a Y-connector of some form is not of great significance. Connecting the subwoofer is more akin to adding another amplifier for bi-amplification, where you would never connect the second amplifier to the speaker outputs of the first.

In the ideal there should be only very small differences, but the reality is that amplifiers don't have infinite damping factor, and when you connect your subwoofer amplifier in parallel with your speakers, you have just connected a partially microphone to the input of your subwoofer. Remember that a speaker functions in both directions where an amplifier passing current through the coil makes the speaker move, but any bass energy making the cone move creates an electrical signal in the voice coil and back to your amplifier outputs or in this case, subwoofer input!

How significant this effect may be will depend on the amplifier, length/impedance of wire connected, and greatly with the speaker connected and it's type and alignment. A deep reaching vented loudspeaker will create a greater effect than a sealed speaker with higher frequency roll off. In effect this connection creates a damped/weak feedback loop in the system. That is hardly what I would choose to set up in a high performance system where accuracy was the goal.

So Mark, you are essentially saying that the good folks at REL are completely wrong with their preferred set-up advice...or am I missing something here??

elescher · Dec 10, 2016

Mark, what is your take on using a resistor in the signal path in order to use the line in on subs?

Mark Seaton · Dec 12, 2016

DaveyF said:
So Mark, you are essentially saying that the good folks at REL are completely wrong with their preferred set-up advice...or am I missing something here??

I didn't say it can't work, rather I explained the consequences of such a connection and why I recommend against it. "Completely wrong" might be a little stronger translation that I would have attributed, but I do shake my head when I see such connections when you have a preamplifier output available. It does have a convenient benefit that you typically eliminate possible ground loops, which can save the manufacturer many support calls, and you can give everyone the same, simple, connection/setup procedure.

Wire for subwoofer hook up

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