How COULD upgraded Ethernet cables make a positive difference? What's behind it?

caesar · Dec 2, 2016

I know some will claim outright that upgrading the Ethernet cables cannot make a positive contribution to better sound. My memory of the classes I took on the TCP/ IP protocol eons ago would agree with that - signal gets split up and then gets put together in whole. It was fun - the logic behind this fabulous protocol worked perfectly!

Yet many guys report positive sonic differences. I think even the computer audiophile, an analytical "transparency to source" listener, who supposedly trusts science and selects equipment marketed based on great science, used expensive audioquest Ethernet cables during his review of the Berkeley Reference dac.

Does any one understand the potential mechanisms behind people reporting positive results?

Could it be something with better shielding to kill off radiation?

Folsom · Dec 2, 2016

1. The amount of noise the cable collects/transfers. Shields reduce the collection and even attenuate some that already existed.

2. The equipment being used is unstable so different cables react differently. (this is something happens, and then people think the equipment is transparent but it's really closer to broken)

Mike Lavigne · Dec 2, 2016

noise, noise, noise.

I'm switching to a fiber optic with my Ethernet. no noise.

obviously you have to switch every 'leg' on either side of your Gigibit switch.

YashN · Dec 2, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
noise, noise, noise.

I'm switching to a fiber optic with my Ethernet. no noise.

Apparently even better with a Linear-Regulated PSU for the FMC near the DAC.

Bruce B · Dec 2, 2016

caesar said:
Yet many guys report positive sonic differences. I think even the computer audiophile, an analytical "transparency to source" listener, who supposedly trusts science and selects equipment marketed based on great science, used expensive audioquest Ethernet cables during his review of the Berkeley Reference dac. ?

I can't hear a difference.... even with Audioquest Diamond that I tried!

Folsom · Dec 2, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
noise, noise, noise.

I'm switching to a fiber optic with my Ethernet. no noise.

obviously you have to switch every 'leg' on either side of your Gigibit switch.

Great way to eliminate upstream noise, but the fiber receiver should have the best PSU you can put on it, just as YashN mentioned. There's some options out there, like a TeddyPardo. (Paul Haynes would be a great one except the fact that it's impossible because his business is back ordered by years due to health and location issues)

Bruce B said:
I can't hear a difference.... even with Audioquest Diamond that I tried!

That just means your equipment is better designed for the signal transmission and receiving; in this case. This is obviously a totally different story with interconnects.

EuroDriver · Dec 4, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
noise, noise, noise.

I'm switching to a fiber optic with my Ethernet. no noise.

obviously you have to switch every 'leg' on either side of your Gigibit switch.

I'm looking forward to your report on how Tidal sounds after changing over to fiber optic LAN !

jfrech · Dec 4, 2016

I think it's noise related and better terminations/connections.

Bruce, have you tried anything besides the AQ Diamond? I don't dispute what you heard...just think a different cable brand may yield a diff outcome...

FrantzM · Dec 4, 2016

Bruce B said:
I can't hear a difference.... even with Audioquest Diamond that I tried!

Thanks for being so candid.

Refreshing.

Folsom · Dec 4, 2016

jfrech said:
I think it's noise related and better terminations/connections.

Bruce, have you tried anything besides the AQ Diamond? I don't dispute what you heard...just think a different cable brand may yield a diff outcome...

So long as the transmitter does send a lot of noise, and he doesn't pick up a lot of RF and/or his receiving end has a rejects noise extremely well then cables won't matter.

All digital cables' objectives are identical, transmit bit perfect data. The worst scenario with Ethernet is when cables make a difference. There is no less desirable situation. All attempts to keep that true are best, like switching to fiber if you can't seem to get rid of the issue. Sadly some decent audio engineers, that are poor digital engineers, will indeed make equipment that has poor data transmission & receiving that will show the differences in cables.

You're best off treating the power to the devices that transmit and receive as your first coarse of action. The second would be to use shielded cables. Then I'd consider upgrading or switching to fiber before considering expensive Ethernet cables. They are not like USB cables that provide power, which can make the cable dirty with noise, btw.

It's funny how once you switch to analog all this becomes nearly meaningless, and the ear is the best way to choose.

Bruce should be happier than hell he can't hear a difference, not looking for ways to cause instability and loss of bit perfect data.

Billy Shears · Dec 5, 2016

After testing even the cheaper ethernetcables from Audioquest against a stock cable of the same category, to me the difference is bigger then what I hear on USB cables... Can't help you with why that would be.

Bruce B · Dec 5, 2016

jfrech said:
I think it's noise related and better terminations/connections.

Bruce, have you tried anything besides the AQ Diamond? I don't dispute what you heard...just think a different cable brand may yield a diff outcome...

Before the Diamond, I tried the Forrest and also cables by Nordost, Cardas, Blue Jeans, Monster and Monoprice. Nothing.....

Steve Williams · Dec 5, 2016

Like Bruce I have also tried several different Ethernet cables and heard no sonic differences

amirm · Dec 5, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
noise, noise, noise.

I'm switching to a fiber optic with my Ethernet. no noise.

I am curious Mike. With all the money and effort you have put in your system, why does it still have so much susceptibility to noise? Does your DAC designer/manufacturer agree that they did not do enough to eliminate noise from upstream Ethernet cable?

Since Ethernet traffic happens asynchronously from music, i.e. there is activity prior to music playing, do you hear that noise with silence? Better yet, there is always background Ethernet activity so you should be able to hear said noise without even playing anything. Do you hear it?

How about if you compare CD to ripped music? Is the latter noisier?

Who came up with this noise theory anyway? Why not electrons moving slower in cheaper speakers causing warping of the music spectrum? How about better cable smoothing out the rate of electrons moving and thereby making it more "analog like?" Why something so specific as "noise" which can trivially be heard and measured?

jkeny · Dec 5, 2016

amirm said:
I am curious Mike. With all the money and effort you have put in your system, why does it still have so much susceptibility to noise? Does your DAC designer/manufacturer agree that they did not do enough to eliminate noise from upstream Ethernet cable?

Since Ethernet traffic happens asynchronously from music, i.e. there is activity prior to music playing, do you hear that noise with silence? Better yet, there is always background Ethernet activity so you should be able to hear said noise without even playing anything. Do you hear it?

How about if you compare CD to ripped music? Is the latter noisier?

Who came up with this noise theory anyway? Why not electrons moving slower in cheaper speakers causing warping of the music spectrum? How about better cable smoothing out the rate of electrons moving and thereby making it more "analog like?" Why something so specific as "noise" which can trivially be heard and measured?

Amir, your blind spot about noise & measurements ofsuch have been well demonstrated in the past. It's unfortunate your learning in this area hasn't progressed any. Is it not more advisable that rather than post further on an area that only further demonstrates this blindness, that you look further into this area & avoid the types of questions you have posted to Mike. Hopefully, through some open-mindedness & study you will look back on your posts regarding noise & see how mistaken they are?

amirm · Dec 5, 2016

jkeny said:
Amir, your blind spot about noise & measurements ofsuch have been well demonstrated in the past. It's unfortunate your learning in this area hasn't progressed any. Is it not more advisable that rather than post further on an area that only further demonstrates this blindness, that you look further into this area & avoid the types of questions you have posted to Mike. Hopefully, through some open-mindedness & study you will look back on your posts regarding noise & see how mistaken they are?

amirm · Dec 5, 2016

Here is a useful test. Play some music and then pause it.

Then go and copy a bunch of files from an external source to your server over Ethernet. Stick your ear next to the speaker? Do you hear anything before and after the copy? The traffic generated by this is orders of magnitude more than music stream. If there is noise, it should be much increased in level and more audible.

jkeny · Dec 5, 2016

amirm said:

You are blindly feeling different parts of the elephant & coming to the wrong conclusions based on the incorrect viewpoint that you are measuring everything & on wrong assumptions, to start with.

amirm · Dec 5, 2016

jkeny said:
You are blindly feeling different parts of the elephant & coming to the wrong conclusions based on the incorrect viewpoint that you are measuring everything & on wrong assumptions, to start with.

jkeny · Dec 5, 2016

amirm said:
Here is a useful test. Play some music and then pause it.

Then go and copy a bunch of files from an external source to your server over Ethernet. Stick your ear next to the speaker? Do you hear anything before and after the copy? The traffic generated by this is orders of magnitude more than music stream. If there is noise, it should be much increased in level and more audible.

You have been told before what is wrong with this logic but you are resistent to this learning so there's absolutely no point in repeating how you are wrong.

Maybe a good starting point for you would be to draw your attention back to the Schiit Bifrost measurements that you posted here and my reply just after - that you ignored - as to why you think your measurements ( & resultant denigration of Schitt) are so different to Sterophile's measurements? They measured two different Bifrosts for their review here

Do you still think your measurements & conclusions are correct? Do they reflect some condition(s) in your system that you are ignoring?

How COULD upgraded Ethernet cables make a positive difference? What's behind it?

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