What do you think separates very successful luxury companies from the less successful

I think several factors come into play...

1. Product quality in terms of sound.

2. Product quality in terms of manufacture.

3. Strength and quality of service which includes a quality dealer network, strong manufacturer service area, and ability to support legacy models. Also, I think an avoidance of introducing too many products too frequently is important. That tends to kill resale value and dealer trust.

4. Business operation which includes quality of management, number of years in business, excellence in branding and overall marketing communication.

The thing that separates luxury audio companies is marketing and branding. They must deliver the goods to keep the brand equity they want. Look at the Harman luxury brands. You don't think they could build an HK receiver wit the SQ of a Lexicon or Levinson preamp if they wanted to?
What made me want my loudspeakers was bang for the buck. I didn't realize after I bought them ( paradigm and JBL) is they could both trace their lineage back to Floyd Toole!

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reprod...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0240520092

Magico doesn't market that much?

VSA hasn't always offered such high end speakers as far as I know. All the older models seem to be in a different price range than all their new high end stuff.

Wilson went big and never stopped.

Martin Logan has lots of contracts with electronics stores that don't really carry anything else that's audiophile. They also have a clear shtick that others can't offer. In your average electronics store it's not hard to tell someone a Martin Logan is superior because of it's non-dynamic driver design. It's not like they're going to know much better when listening, and there certainly won't be anything to compare to it since the other line they're going to have will be Klipsch.

How big is the Avalon company in Europe, compared to Wilson?

I'm interested in the main question, really, but I can't answer that myself. I'm not very average.

I bought my giya g1's after dismissing them after hearing them in a show , but then subsequently purchasing them after an audition at a fellow audiophiles house. The sound was the best I have ever heard and the speakers are industrial art..

I will be purchasing the new G1 spirits unheard..I have that much confidence in vivid , plus they will give me my money back if in the words of one of the owners " they dont blow you away"
The cream always floats to the top....
I have bought many other loudspeakers unheard *IN MY ROOM* but at 1/10th of the price of the vivids .. and always pre owned..easy to shift on and not take a bath when doing so.

15 years ago I had Wilson WP6's and decided to go another direction. as I recall the WP6's were in the mid teens price wise, $16k or so. I wanted a more coherent speaker than how I viewed the WP6's, and one that was more dynamic and an easier load so I could have modest power tube amplifiers instead of my mega ML #33 mono blocks. I was tired of Wilson--Mark Levinson. I wanted a large scale speaker but it needed to fit into my smallish 12' x 18' x 11' foot room, and my wife needed to like it's look.

I started researching speakers and happened to read a review by Jonathan Valin about the Kharma Exquisite Reference speakers. this was early 2001. Valin loved the speaker, and claimed it was the second best speaker he had heard at everything, but not the best at anything. it just made great music. it was very expensive, $75k at that time. it was modest in size, 56 inches tall, but massive, at 550 pounds. and it was 91db, 6 ohm and had a 1st order crossover.....very coherent. I tried to find someone who had heard this speaker but even though I knew a fair amount of people, I could find no one who had ever heard any Kharma speaker. so I gave up on it.

then 6 weeks later I was talking to a friend on the east coast on the phone when he said something that got my attention; he knew some guys who were getting the Kharma USA distributorship, they were putting together an initial order for speakers, and did I know anyone who might want a great buy on Kharma speakers? they needed to flesh out this first order. I'm not going to get into particulars, but 4 years later when I sold my Kharma Exquisite Reference 1D's (I still loved them, but they could not put out enough bass energy in my new room), I made almost $10k profit on them. and they were fantastic sounding, audio works of art and a pleasure to use and touch......and fully checked every box on my list.

so I purchased $75k speakers without not only never hearing them, but not even knowing anyone who had ever heard that brand of speaker, and they were a total home run purchase. and so when I read people knock Valin, I got to give the man his due. he most definitely steered me right.

I have to say that with my last 2 speaker purchases (in 2005 and 2012); I heard the first production examples of each speaker at the designers home while he was voicing the crossover prior to the introduction of the speaker. so my acquisition approach has evolved.

as far as speaker brand names I have a likely not 'politically correct' perspective about that I have posted before. the prominent top tier brick and mortar brands (don't need to list them) make excellent products, fine quality of build and they sound good. however; their resale value is marginal because their agenda is frequent upgrades. they are driven to upgrade each model every 18 to 24 months.....the very top tier every 36-48 months. the dealers need this to survive. speaker upgrades fuel all other sales for them. so it's a rough ride once you get on the bus.

OTOH less prominent brands might have the same model for 7-10 years, and they tend to hold their value. and the performance holds up too. my last speakers I owned for 7 years (still a current model now 11 years later) and made money when I sold them. the previous 2 sets of speakers the same thing. I always took a hit with my watt puppies.

just a general observation on how it looks to me.

LetSleepingDogs said:

Thanks for the replies so far, and thank you to everyone who has answered the poll!

Anyone have anything to add? There are no wrong answers!

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Thanks for bringing up that high end audio is a luxury industry. The idea is slowly sinking in. Other than a few handful of us on this site, very few are talking about it. The only one in the high end audio media talking about it is Ken Kessler. Manufacturers just wrap the gear in a pretty package or paint it in Lamborghini red and sell it to make us, audiophiles, feel good. As long as folks who purchase this obtained their money in a legal manner, they should be free to spend it any way they want. And there is nothing wrong with having extra pleasure and joy in our lives.

As to your question of what differentiates successful luxury brands from one’s that no one virtually knows about is based on a lot of behavioral psychology and economics research, and Nobel prizes have been awarded for some of these ideas, so it’s not BS.

High end audio has a big preference component – people get conditioned to a taste over time and they prefer it to something else. Just like someone may prefer gruyere to cheddar, Gucci to Louis Vuitton, someone may prefer Magico or Wilson or a horn speaker, tubes or solid state, vinyl or digital, pcm vs dsd, etc. Guys who argue about preferences that are manufactured by their imagination are f*ing morons.

But assuming the sonic signature of the gear appeals to one’s taste, best brands have a good story to tell that appeals to the individual. By good story, I mean it's something that emotionally resonates with the buyer or audio fan. For example, simple and unusual marketing claims such as an “electrostatic sound in a box speaker”, “homemade drivers so precise, nothing on the planet can touch them”, etc. Obviously these marketing messages resonate with people who already like the brand or want to believe the marketing. But from an outsider’s perspective, they seem like pure bullsh!t. Box speakers, no matter how advanced, don't sound as open as stats / planars/ omnis.

As for homemade drivers, many people are led to believe by audio writers and fans that "home made drivers" and in-house CNC machines result in better products. In reality, they are better in some cases but not in others. One can easily design a great driver and have someone else manufacture it. Yet our industry has followed the fashion industry to vertically integrate and call it "better quality" product since it's totally controlled.
But one just has to do a cost benefit analysis of finding space, buying machines, managing the shop, training the staff vs. outsourcing this to some one who has done it. Boeing and Airbus are not vertically integrated and have thousands of suppliers, as Adam Smith predicted; otherwise their products would be way too expensive. If NASA can trust third parties, risking money, human lives, and national pride, why can’t high end audio firms? On the contrary, the fashion industry and high end audio get a free ride to pass the mark-ups of in-house manufacturers to consumers, who are led to believe by audio media personalities that they will get better sound that way. Star-struck high end audio guys, who have let their emotions overtake their brain, justify these claims without any critical thought. Lois Vuitton was the first luxury company to vertically integrate in the name of better quality. But this business strategy has also allowed them to raise prices at will AND pass them on to their customers, who pay up. Luxury practices sometimes trump economic decisions.

Furthermore, the higher the price, the more scarce the item, and the more scarce the item, the more it is desired...

Once brand stories get established, they are embellished by audio reviewers. This appeal to authority figures – the omnipotent individual who really knows what REAL MUSIC sounds like - is one of the strongest marketing methods used by successful companies (and dealers) vs. those that are only able to sell a few units a year to their mother, brother, and brother in-law-audiophile. A New York times critic once confessed that a great many people will believe almost anything that anyone tells them if told with certainty and conviction….

Most of the reviewers are nice guys, but when it comes to choosing their loyalty, so many act like disgusting smegma, and choose the manufacturer over the audio fan. After all, gear is expensive, and one way a reviewer can get a system that costs more than their house for an extended period for free, and write about it before other reviewers, is by echoing the brand stories and improving on them. The best reviewers – who posture as authorities - take the brand story started by manufacturer and load it with emotion. The best of these "audio journalists" write so well that they are able to persuade the fans by casting a spell and getting people believe them how realistic the music will sound using that brand.

Yet high end audio is an experience, and experiences of fine tequilas, string quartets in world class venues, caring deeds, ice cream, and high end audio are rich, complex, multidimensional, and impalpable. Experiences can only be approximately defined by its antecedents and by its relation to other experiences. That’s why most reviewers who never compare are worthless. It’s easy to just proclaim something as “BEST” because some new detail the dude heard tickled his preference. Of course, it is best only in the reviewer’s imagination and contributes to fukc the audio fan culture that we live in, as fans who are interested in purchasing a component are left in the dark, unless they are willing to expend a lot of time and money searching…

Another important consideration is the amount of owners or fans there are. If there is only a small pocket of guys raving about a product in the internet, it does not have the weight of a manufacturer that constantly packs the room at shows or has a whole bunch of raving fans. In a subjective and uncertain hobby as this, having large numbers of fans is proof of success. So the more popular brands get even more popular…

I need to stop here to get some work done. I hope this helps!

great story ceasar
Marketing advertising shows thats the way to get attention.
haha sorry i m dutch i dont like to spend money on that but it simply works that way , and having a reasonable quality product off course.

PS speakers are a personal choice hard to argue with someones choice imo

The two things I think make a speaker company successful is marketing and how they stand behind their product AFTER the sale. As far as I'm concerned, this makes or breaks a company. Wilson has stood behind their products even after the warranty period has ended. This goes a long way with me. Some speakers I've had I couldn't get manufacturer support even "within" the warranty period!

agreed with spending big bucks on speakers you want a professional/reliable run company behind it .
and the fit and finish has to be excellent

In business the innovators survive as they listen to their customers,build a base and build capital for further expansion.

One caveat about speakers is there are exceptions to the rule,but I expect it is rare. I have had my speakers since 1979 and have never heard anything better to my ear. The exception is they are one of a kind and have been upgraded and purchased for a princely sum of 1900 dollars. Follow your instincts and believe what you hear.

PS speakers are a personal choice hard to argue with someones choice imo


that said and seeing the fact of how often sometimes audiophiles change speakers/gear you might raise the question as to how much it was their own choice and how much was the reviewer / dealer influence on the purchase

LetSleepingDogs said:

1. Poll: Would you ever buy a loudspeaker without hearing it first?
a) I went to a dealer first and that's the only way I would buy!
b) I went to a dealer, but I would buy without hearing if there is a trial period!
c) I bought my loudspeakers sight unheard!

Companies like Wilson, Magico, Martin Logan, etc. command a large following and make millions of dollars per year, whereas Von Schweikert**, Avalon**, Marten**, etc. have a much smaller following, and presumably bring in much less revenue.

2. What makes Wilson and Magico different than Von Schweikert (other than a name that is easy to spell)?
3. Is it less luxurious to own a Marten than a Magico?
4. Are Magico's cabinets better looking?
5. Is Wilson's heritage more enticing than Avalon's?
6. What is it?

On a similar note:
7. What is it about the brand of YOUR loudspeakers that made you want them?
8. Did you hear about them on a forum and decide to try them?
9. Did you walk into an audio shop and leave with the best sounding product they had?
10. Are audio shops as important as they once were?
11. Would you ever buy a loudspeaker without hearing it first? Take the poll!

Thanks for taking the time to join the discussion, this could be very interesting.

**No disrespect meant toward any of the manufactures I listed as "less successful". I know of many brands that enjoy their market share and wish not to expand further. To say they are less successful, does not mean that they are not excellent products, or that they have not reached their goals. This is especially true for Von Schweikert. I met Albert at a show many years ago and he was unbelievably nice and his product sounded great! In fact, I would be very interested to hear his opinion on the subject!

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1. The poll all by itself: Top question ? Yes, I would buy a pair of loudspeakers without hearing them first (I trust audio reviewers; why would they lie?).
a) I did that in the past; I went to an audio dealer and bought a pair of loudspeakers after auditioning them.
b) I did that too in the past; I went to an audio dealer and bought a pair of loudspeakers without auditioning them.
c) Both ways.

So, to answer that poll with accuracy I had to go back in time on how I did what I did, and on how I would proceed in the future; similarly or differently.
It depends of many things; it's not a black and white film without shades.

2. They look different, they are reviewed differently with their own attributes and music selections, and not always by the same audio reviewers; often by different ones.
They used different materials, drivers, crossovers, part's values, wiring, bracing, the deliver different acoustical properties, they have different voicing, phasing, tuning, emphasis, levels of clarity, sound stage, imaging, bass extension, neutrality, accuracy, tightness, detail retrieval, blackness of background, sensitivity, impedance, prestige, decor friendliness, WAF acceptance, overall sound character...etc., etc., etc., uniqueness and similarities in one or more aspects of their design's attributes.

3. I never think about stuff like that; should I?

4. It depends who is answering; Magico speakers are splendid looking on the inside (guts), and very ordinary (rectangle boxes) on the outside.

5. Who knows; certainly not I.
6. That's what I said; who knows.

7. Reading the reviews; pretty much that...100% - So from my answer you can tell how important the owners and reviewers are, including the audio dealer's own reviews.
And particularly when the professional audio reviewers bought them for themselves.
We're all different, and we don't buy the same speakers, or if we do they don't sound the same anyway. *** Think about what I just said here.

8. An audio forum, to me, is an extension, a discussion, a confirmation, a reaffirmation, an assurance, a search for the truth, an exploration, an experimentation, a discovery, a learning adventure, a knowledge, an apprentissage (apprenticeship), a relationship building block, an advancement, ...
Everything is possible, everything is important; including flexibility and diversity.

9. I never did that, but I did have few thoughts about it, on occasions. @ the end I made my decisions based on my own set of balanced assessments, including physicality, brain temperature, height of the ceiling, financial percentage (value of the stock market on a day-to-day fluctuation), emotional transitional state, down-to-earth perception and reality, set of musical priorities, ...brief my own set of evaluations.

10. Today with the internet and applications and information, we go to those audio stores with different baggage equipment (knowledge).
So, the audio shops they sure evolve as we do too.

11. Yes, as I mentioned it @ the beginning.
________

? I've read other member's comments, including Rodney, Mike, Caesar, Bruce, ...and it's good info from an audio What's Best Forum like right here.
* Caesar's post from the previous page was fun, and different to read. I enjoyed reading his in-depth remarks. It sure stopped me on my projected routine.

Bruce B said:

The two things I think make a speaker company successful is marketing and how they stand behind their product AFTER the sale. As far as I'm concerned, this makes or breaks a company. Wilson has stood behind their products even after the warranty period has ended. This goes a long way with me. Some speakers I've had I couldn't get manufacturer support even "within" the warranty period!

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Amen. One could argue that service is part of marketing or, at least, needs to be closely aligned. Definitely helps build trust in the brand and helps get the next sale.

Furthermore, any time the customer comes into contact with any aspect of a company, however remote, he has an opportunity to form an impression.

In today’s culture, every type of experience is shared online. Consumers research products online before going to the dealer or show, where they can hear, see, and feel the product. By the time they see their dealer, a lot of their mind is already made up.

I think whats also very important is the way its presented by the dealer , talking luxury products in general , location of the shop and a luxury boutique presentation.

If i was a high end dealer getting a superb noise isolated listening room would be the first thing to accomplish , as it will make all (even mediocre products) shine as well

andromedaaudio said:

I think whats also very important is the way its presented by the dealer , talking luxury products in general , location of the shop and a luxury boutique presentation.

If i was a high end dealer getting a superb noise isolated listening room would be the first thing to accomplish , as it will make all (even mediocre products) shine as well

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Excellent point! Very few dealers get it.

Marketing is about 4 Ps -

Product - what the actual product is - looks, sound, functionality, etc...Most audiophiles fall short here, as they just don't have the time to listen to all the products in the Set - leading to dependency on local dealers/friends, hifi shows, or online reviews.

Price - Price is a big marketing signal. IMO, currently the cheap and the very expensive do well.

Promotion - Advertising, hifi show presence - this required big pockets and large investment

Place (Distribution) - This is quite key. Wilson, Magico, AR, all have excellent distribution, availability, dealer support and after sales service.

I don't think the Consumer Market is us. It is either the low cost, or those big spenders that rsvinta (Rhapsody) is selling his 500k Goldmunds to. Some of them will have their agent call a reputed dealer to set up the system, specifying the WAF factor. They may not care which has a higher extension, if the midrange is like ribbon or beryllium, or if crossover can be tweaked.

Check the decision making around this forum. When people buy an expensive speaker or digital or whatever, have they actually compared it with many to justify the price, or did they buy it on hearsay? And this forum is that small percent of extreme OCDers, who would relatively investigate more than the others.

bonzo75 said:

Marketing is about 4 Ps -

Product - what the actual product is - looks, sound, functionality, etc...Most audiophiles fall short here, as they just don't have the time to listen to all the products in the Set - leading to dependency on local dealers/friends, hifi shows, or online reviews.

Price - Price is a big marketing signal. IMO, currently the cheap and the very expensive do well.

Promotion - Advertising, hifi show presence - this required big pockets and large investment

Place (Distribution) - This is quite key. Wilson, Magico, AR, all have excellent distribution, availability, dealer support and after sales service.

I don't think the Consumer Market is us. It is either the low cost, or those big spenders that rsvinta (Rhapsody) is selling his 500k Goldmunds to. Some of them will have their agent call a reputed dealer to set up the system, specifying the WAF factor. They may not care which has a higher extension, if the midrange is like ribbon or beryllium, or if crossover can be tweaked.

Check the decision making around this forum. When people buy an expensive speaker or digital or whatever, have they actually compared it with many to justify the price, or did they buy it on hearsay? And this forum is that small percent of extreme OCDers, who would relatively investigate more than the others.

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That is a great framework. It's been around 70-80 years and still applies in the digital world that has come about.

I wish we had some data to make more sense of things. Pricewise, I wonder how many speakers over $50K get sold. I wonder if Wilson will sell over 1,000 Alexx speakers or if Magico will sell over 500 M3s. I wonder if Raidho will sell over 50 D5.1s. I think the market for speakers over $50K is quite small...

Also, as far as "Place" goes, it's interesting that companies like Magico and YG have built out their own listening rooms. As mentioned above, most dealer rooms suck. And there is also a lot of dealer churn - if they can't move the gear, they get kicked out.

Promotion, of course, happens primarily at shows, and for the lucky brands, via "audio journalists" who really are Marketing Executives for the brands they write about.