New York Times: Listening Clubs Tantalize Audiophiles in London

treitz3 said:

Hello, ceasar. I haven't been to one but I have always thought that opening a restaurant with a high end system would generate a "new" kind of theme that I feel many folks would be attracted too. Different "Happy hours" for different music genre's. Pipe dream perhaps but maybe one day it'll come true here in the states.

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I hope not. Music, unless I have programmed it myself, is always an unwanted distraction from a good meal and good conversation.

Kal Rubinson said:

I hope not. Music, unless I have programmed it myself, is always an unwanted distraction from a good meal and good conversation.

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I completely agree.

We usually ask our waiter to have the music turned down so we can enjoy a good conversation with our dinner so we don't have to scream at each other at the table.

When we want music, we turn on the stereo system or go to a performance.

A restaurant with music that is actually loud enough to recognize what's playing is too loud. The din of the crowd, clinking glasses and silverware in the restaurant is loud enough. When we were kids, our parents taught us to be courteous and speak quietly in a restaurant because we weren't the only people there. Nowadays loud, boisterous talk is the rule and we do not appreciate it.

I find live music an even worse situation because asking a performer, face-to-face, to play more quietly or to move on to another part of the restaurant is disconcerting (sic).

I've actually always wanted to sell power conditioners to restaurants so that the music would be more pleasant, with less noise, so it'd be easier to talk and not so fatiguing on everyone. You think you don't like the loud music? Imagine what it's like for the staff! I believe service would improve an awful lot with power conditioning since the staff won't be so damn tired out from the music.

Folsom said:

I've actually always wanted to sell power conditioners to restaurants so that the music would be more pleasant, with less noise, so it'd be easier to talk and not so fatiguing on everyone. You think you don't like the loud music? Imagine what it's like for the staff! I believe service would improve an awful lot with power conditioning since the staff won't be so damn tired out from the music.

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It isn't that I don't like loud music; I do not like any noticeable music.

I like it in the background, subtle. But places turn it up because when it's quiet it doesn't sound like much of anything since clarity is low, and the fun parts don't come across well with all the noise in it either.

One of my favourite places, a French restaurant, often tastefully uses the music until it gets late then its "bar time" and the volume gets somewhat annoyingly high. But its necessary, as places with no noise have no business late at night.

Folsom said:

I've actually always wanted to sell power conditioners to restaurants so that the music would be more pleasant, with less noise, so it'd be easier to talk and not so fatiguing on everyone. You think you don't like the loud music? Imagine what it's like for the staff! I believe service would improve an awful lot with power conditioning since the staff won't be so damn tired out from the music.

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Restaurants do not need power conditioners to make the music sound better. Plain and simple, they need better loudspeakers. Frequently the staff turns the music volume up so they can boogie as they work, but I digress, any music loud enough to recognize the song or piece is too loud for dining.

I couldn't disagree more Gary.

Who cares what the frequency response is? Fatigue level and intelligibility from cleaner power will be more beneficial than frequency response. You can put a power conditioner on a shitty stereo and it'll become pleasant to listen to, despite all the clear inadequacies.

You might go to places where the staff gets to have play time, but when I don't know any that I consider fine dining.

The background noise of glasses clinking, silverware rattling, people talking and dishes crashing is so much louder than electronic noise there is simply no comparison. The ambient noise in a restaurant is between 70-75 dB on a quiet night. There is no way a power conditioner in their music/PA system will fix that.

Folsom said:

You can put a power conditioner on a shitty stereo and it'll become pleasant to listen to. . . .

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Not in this universe.

A crappy stereo will sound crappy even if you use a state of the art 60 Hz signal generator to power it.

I didn't mean to imply the staff literally boogies to the music, but they do often use it for their own entertainment if the management doesn't control it and keep it mellow.

Gary, I'm afraid I have to many real world trials with power conditioners to know that's not true. I've tried them in many places, including live stages with musicians. I make them, I have an idea about what happens.

One of the most prolific experiences was playing an MP3 burned to a CD on a friends dumpy Yamaha stereo with Bose 901 speakers. It was a Jethro Tull song. Then we unplugged it all, didn't touch a thing for settings, and plugged it back into the wall. We had to turn it off because it was so hard on our ears, and I physically stepped back. It also sounded bad.

And of course you're correct you can't power condition ambient noises. What's wrong with hearing the music between some of it?

caesar said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/31/arts/music/london-listening-clubs-spiritland.html?_r=0

Anyone been to one of these? Really the "best sound in the world"?

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I live in London and have been to Spiritland numerous times since it opened in September. I recommend going if you are in London. The food and drink are good, and unusually for London, the atmosphere of the place is relaxed and does not revolve around drinking oneself into oblivion.

The system, which is the one in the picture in the Times article, consists of the large one-off Living Voice speakers in the photo, with Atelier du Triode amplification for the main arrays and Living Voice solid state amplifiers for the woofer units, along with various front ends and, reportedly, a custom mixer of some kind. The system sounds impressive in terms of its dynamic range and frequency extension. In other respects, it has problems--principally, boomy bass, lots of "horny" coloration, and a general lack of any sense of imaging or an ambient soundfield. (I usually sit either at the middle table or at a stool in the middle of the room; I am always in the sweet spot.)

Therefore, it is not the best sound system in the world and is not even as good in basic audiophile performance parameters as the relatively modest system in my living room. Admittedly, I have never seen Spirtland's big Kuzma turntable or Revox reel-to-reel deck in use, but I don't think it's fair to judge the system on the basis of those front ends if they are rarely or never used. The usual front ends are Technics SL-1200s, which evidently have been modified, along with computer files, which, I understand, are run through a DCS converter. (I have not seen the DCS converter and cannot confirm its existence.)

The biggest problem with Spiritland is that letting most DJs touch this kind of equipment is like putting a small child at the controls of an airliner. On Saturday night, the featured DJs ran the tweeters extremely "hot"; the sound was painful. They succeeded only in ensuring that the room was mostly empty (there were perhaps a dozen people in the main room at 11:30 p.m.).

So, go when they don't have a featured DJ (which is during the day, every day) or when there's some indication that the DJ will know what he's doing (e.g., the DJ will be doing a Rudy Van Gelder retrospective). I do recommend the place, and the food and drink are excellent. There's no dancing and no excessive drinking at Spiritland--it's civilized, relaxed and focused on the music.

I will go again.

Folsom said:

Who cares what the frequency response is? Fatigue level and intelligibility from cleaner power will be more beneficial than frequency response. You can put a power conditioner on a shitty stereo and it'll become pleasant to listen to, despite all the clear inadequacies.
.

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Please post up a picture of such a device for us.

16hz lover said:

Please post up a picture of such a device for us.

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LOL !

david

When I get home I can post a pic, but how is that useful?

soundArgument said:

I live in London and have been to Spiritland numerous times since it opened in September. I recommend going if you are in London. The food and drink are good, and unusually for London, the atmosphere of the place is relaxed and does not revolve around drinking oneself into oblivion.

[. . .]

So, go . . . when there's some indication that the DJ will know what he's doing (e.g., the DJ will be doing a Rudy Van Gelder retrospective). I do recommend the place, and the food and drink are excellent. There's no dancing and no excessive drinking at Spiritland--it's civilized, relaxed and focused on the music.

I will go again.

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I went to Spiritland again, and tonight the featured event was a Rudy Van Gelder retrospective.

There was a crowd tonight, perhaps because of the Times article. The ambient noise level was higher than on my previous trips to Spiritland, but I felt that I could still listen to the system. The vibe was fine, though the rest of the crowd did not seem particularly interested in the music.

Disappointingly, the DJ did not use the big Kuzma XL table, sticking to the twin Technics 1200s. On the one hand, the system's sound quality clearly holds potential. Playing those classic Van Gelder records, the system realistically reproduced the sound of horns, and from my seat in the middle of the room, I heard a stable center image on every record played tonight (whether stereo or mono).

On the other hand, boomy, lumpy bass ruined the sound of piano and double bass. The placement of the two big woofer units--while it looks cool--is probably suboptimal. (A photo showing the woofer placement, taken on a previous visit I made, is below.)

In addition, we heard a few CDs before the jazz began. It appeared that the CDs were played through the analog outputs of Pioneer DJ decks--not through a DCS converter. (Only the analog outputs on the Pioneer CD decks were connected, so I don't believe an external converter could have been involved.)

I keep going back to the place hoping to hear one of the three high-end sources (Kuzma XL, Revox reel-to-reel deck, DCS DAC) advertised on their website in use, but the Spiritland staff and their DJs persist in playing everything from Pioneer and Technics DJ front ends.

A disappointing evening from my curmudgeonly audiophile perspective.

In a space like that I'd probably aim the subs to the left and right 90% off from aiming at the rear wall, and place them outside of the main speakers. You're fighting way too much tuning to have them face towards the listeners; it can take time and lots of effort to get that right.

Folsom said:

In a space like that I'd probably aim the subs to the left and right 90% off from aiming at the rear wall, and place them outside of the main speakers. You're fighting way too much tuning to have them face towards the listeners; it can take time and lots of effort to get that right.

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This placement probably would not possible in the limited space at Spiritland. Perhaps some EQ--judiciously applied only to the two active woofer units--would help.

I suppose I can't see the whole picture but it looks ok to me. I think you'd bump into the limits of EQ very fast.

DJ's and the 1200, they'd follow them into hell...