System Test Music: First Piano, Then Large-Scale Orchestra...and Now Organ?

LL21 · Oct 24, 2016

Having evolved steadily in my own understanding of building a system to suit my tastes, i noted that as i got more 'full scale', 'full range' components, i started to be able to enjoy solo piano more, then concertos...and then there was a Eureka moment when i found i could really listen and enjoy symphonies. (Although similar to concertos, i felt the solo instrument 'distracted me' from the rest of the orchestra actually being 'congealed' behind the main instrument that was the star of the concerto. Whereas, true straight up symphonies really force the system to be able to discern the various music themes, cues out of a mass of notes which could otherwise be indistinguishable or 'congealed'.

It took me a while to realize that the system's inability to deliver the orchestra is some reasonably effortless manner with delineation, power, control, dynamic swings and a low noise floor...really made me feel like the orchestra was 'squished' and thus unpleasant to listen to. Once we got a lot of the system work done with the right components, symphonies started coming together.

...but it was still organ music that i could not get on with. I am not a huge organ fan i suppose...but whenever we are in Church, I also always enjoy the pacific yet behemoth qualities of the organ. And yet at home...always felt (like the symphony problem of old), like the whole thing was compressed, and at times screeching. Boy is that a powerful instrument.

...but in the new place and having (as recently as this morning) continued to fine tune the system with the Stillpoints Apertures, etc...i decided out of curiosity to try Bach Organ works, and am amazed after all these years, to find its (a little) like being in Church. With the ethereal echoing highs of the notes with the low bass shudder of the lower pedals...and yet without screech or a half-bloat/half-choke on the deep pedal notes. We shall see what happens when the organ goes truly 'all out'...but for now, this is a magnificent moment for me in audio trials.

Anyone else have a similar observation about systems and their ability to not 'choke' under the pressure of super-dynamic instruments or large-scale music?

NorthStar · Oct 24, 2016

Lloyd, for orchestral works, chorals, organ music ... I too found it hard to reproduce with full justice. To help me out in my musical expansion for those genre of music I love, including operas, I decided to add more speakers and buy multichannel high resolution music recordings from those genres. Bingo, the doors of heaven opened up.
But that's my own music evolution, going from solo piano, cello, chamber music, orchestral, divinity.
And of course the music mediums are digital; SACD, DVD-Audio, Blu-ray Video/Audio.

I would have love to perfected my analog stereo life with albums from stereo vinyl, but I found myself limited when I encountered powerful music like full classical orchestral works.
For small classical chamber and jazz bands vinyl is still viable, very. But when crossing the epiphany over to the other grandiose size, stereo vinyl I found very limited.

This, my own personal experience, and in no way I want to discourage other music lovers by engaging to the next higher musical step; the hi-res audio multichannel music recordings.

* I have never experienced this with only two speakers and a turntable, never. Again, this is my own personal and very very limited experience.
...If of course I can share.

** If you can experience that with only two speakers, bravo, my highest congratulations, and please invite me over. :b

ack · Oct 25, 2016

LL21 said:
Having evolved steadily in my own understanding of building a system to suit my tastes, i noted that as i got more 'full scale', 'full range' components, i started to be able to enjoy solo piano more, then concertos...and then there was a Eureka moment when i found i could really listen and enjoy symphonies. (Although similar to concertos, i felt the solo instrument 'distracted me' from the rest of the orchestra actually being 'congealed' behind the main instrument that was the star of the concerto. Whereas, true straight up symphonies really force the system to be able to discern the various music themes, cues out of a mass of notes which could otherwise be indistinguishable or 'congealed'.

It took me a while to realize that the system's inability to deliver the orchestra is some reasonably effortless manner with delineation, power, control, dynamic swings and a low noise floor...really made me feel like the orchestra was 'squished' and thus unpleasant to listen to. Once we got a lot of the system work done with the right components, symphonies started coming together.

...but it was still organ music that i could not get on with. I am not a huge organ fan i suppose...but whenever we are in Church, I also always enjoy the pacific yet behemoth qualities of the organ. And yet at home...always felt (like the symphony problem of old), like the whole thing was compressed, and at times screeching. Boy is that a powerful instrument.

...but in the new place and having (as recently as this morning) continued to fine tune the system with the Stillpoints Apertures, etc...i decided out of curiosity to try Bach Organ works, and am amazed after all these years, to find its (a little) like being in Church. With the ethereal echoing highs of the notes with the low bass shudder of the lower pedals...and yet without screech or a half-bloat/half-choke on the deep pedal notes. We shall see what happens when the organ goes truly 'all out'...but for now, this is a magnificent moment for me in audio trials.

Anyone else have a similar observation about systems and their ability to not 'choke' under the pressure of super-dynamic instruments or large-scale music?

I'd say I am almost in agreement: small instruments -> voice -> piano -> orchestral -> choral -> [orchestral + ] organ -> all of the above

LL21 · Oct 25, 2016

ack said:
I'd say I am almost in agreement: small instruments -> voice -> piano -> orchestral -> choral -> [orchestral + ] organ -> all of the above

Interesting and good to know.

LL21 · Oct 25, 2016

NorthStar said:
Lloyd, for orchestral works, chorals, organ music ... I too found it hard to reproduce with full justice. To help me out in my musical expansion for those genre of music I love, including operas, I decided to add more speakers and buy multichannel high resolution music recordings from those genres. Bingo, the doors of heaven opened up.
But that's my own music evolution, going from solo piano, cello, chamber music, orchestral, divinity.
And of course the music mediums are digital; SACD, DVD-Audio, Blu-ray Video/Audio.

I would have love to perfected my analog stereo life with albums from stereo vinyl, but I found myself limited when I encountered powerful music like full classical orchestral works.
For small classical chamber and jazz bands vinyl is still viable, very. But when crossing the epiphany over to the other grandiose size, stereo vinyl I found very limited.

This, my own personal experience, and in no way I want to discourage other music lovers by engaging to the next higher musical step; the hi-res audio multichannel music recordings.

* I have never experienced this with only two speakers and a turntable, never. Again, this is my own personal and very very limited experience.
...If of course I can share.

** If you can experience that with only two speakers, bravo, my highest congratulations, and please invite me over. :b

Thanks...i think for me, organ and orchestral are about effortless scale which envelopes. Multi-speakers means surround and more dispersion, so that makes sense to me.

From a 2 channel perspective, in terms of the 'aura' of enveloping sound, i think 2 channel with a big a-s sub well dialed in has its own potential to create part of the aura of spaciousness in terms of sheer bass, volume of space/scale that comes from air movement. In our case, muting the amp so the main speakers do not play, the sub is clearly on all the time even with higher notes because there is the space-cue-rumble thing going on due to the Cathedral's vast space. That helps, as does the gentle-giant pedal shudder thing when those lower notes play.

bonzo75 · Oct 25, 2016

The Datasat Auro 3d 13.4 system I heard had the best representation of chorals, orchestral (using MCH CD of Mahler 2 Channel Classics upsampled from 5 channels to 13), and by far the best organ, which is their selling point in their demo disc played at shows.

This was on speakers I don't like (B&W 802 diamonds) and in an extremely bad room. That happened because of the processing, the fat that sound came from front with concert hall ambience plus the illusion of distance from the stage created by the distance of the overhead speaker from the front centre ceiling channel.

NorthStar · Oct 25, 2016

I'm from the above school when it comes to serious orchestral works etc.
You need huge stereo speakers, a good quality stereo recording, ...to be immersed by a full scale orchestra and choir...200 musicians/singers plus, and the organ player.

A solo piano? Only a mono speaker would do. Stereo with good imaging and the quality piano solo recording; fine too and that's what 100% of what we do.

Two high quality full range speakers or many quality smaller speakers with couple or more subs? ...For choral and organ music recorded in large cathedrals.

16hz lover · Oct 26, 2016

Yes, organs and large symphonies become effortless when you have sufficient subwoofage.

bonzo75 · Oct 26, 2016

16hz lover said:
Yes, organs and large symphonies become effortless when you have sufficient subwoofage.

Organs to an extent, symphonies also require ability to resolve many frequencies and voltages simultaneously without losing the tone, and not have a crossover artefact (same with piano, easy to hear it playing through crossovers). Organ does require more woofage, while symphonies also require a different kind of bass, above woofer hz

LL21 · Oct 26, 2016

16hz lover said:
Yes, organs and large symphonies become effortless when you have sufficient subwoofage.

Well, given your earlier posts, i am not sure i qualify with 2 Wilson X1s and a Velodyne DD18+...but i am definitely having fun. BTW, i am absolutely amazed by your setup...what a fantastic set of photos. thanks for posting!

sbo6 · Oct 26, 2016

NorthStar said:
I'm from the above school when it comes to serious orchestral works etc.
You need huge stereo speakers, a good quality stereo recording, ...to be immersed by a full scale orchestra and choir...200 musicians/singers plus, and the organ player.

A solo piano? Only a mono speaker would do. Stereo with good imaging and the quality piano solo recording; fine too and that's what 100% of what we do.

Two high quality full range speakers or many quality smaller speakers with couple or more subs? ...For choral and organ music recorded in large cathedrals.

Very few systems can reproduce true full scale orchestra crescendos. I've heard it on a few pair of horns and that's about it.

As far as piano and mono, why do you believe that? Why would other instruments be effective in stereo and not piano?

16hz lover · Oct 26, 2016

LL21 said:
Well, given your earlier posts, i am not sure i qualify with 2 Wilson X1s and a Velodyne DD18+...but i am definitely having fun. BTW, i am absolutely amazed by your setup...what a fantastic set of photos. thanks for posting!

Those were not my system FYI, I just have several good friends who obviously have serious subwoofage. After losing my health 2 years ago, my 8ft long sub with (4) 18" subs got sold, so I would love to have your system. Glad to hear you are happy with it too.

YashN · Oct 26, 2016

Specifically for classical/orchestral/symphonic/choir afficionados, it's a good approach.

For me, I use the feedback from some of those so as then to look for timbral and soundstage accuracy and some dynamics as my musical preference veers more towards more contemporary sounding music. I hear a lot of people saying the reproduction of choirs is difficult. I have a Greek friend who really liked the sound of my small system here and I listened to his choir rehearsals. I can always call on to him to listen to my tweaks and their effects.

In addition to those, I look for the ability to render sound texture (which I know for sure when I'm the one who synthesized the sound in the first space) but also rapidity of transients (like in very fast electronic or acoustic music). This helps with rhythmic perception and sound-stage and timbre recognition.

I will probably not need to have the playback capacity for a proper symphonic reproduction since this is not my main type of music (I do have a tiny collection, several in high-res including Quad DSD), but I do pay attention when people of more classical bent report on their listening impressions. I think anyone who prefers pop/electronic music could benefit greatly in their system by doing so.

witchdoctor · Nov 5, 2016

LL21 this is a great topic and I think the magic ingredient is "headroom". Once you have speakers with sufficient dynamics and an amp that can drive them cables make a big difference in getting that ease in dynamic swings. Finally component isolation like the still points you use can really add to unconstrained dynamics.

LL21 · Nov 5, 2016

witchdoctor said:
LL21 this is a great topic and I think the magic ingredient is "headroom". Once you have speakers with sufficient dynamics and an amp that can drive them cables make a big difference in getting that ease in dynamic swings. Finally component isolation like the still points you use can really add to unconstrained dynamics.

Thanks, Witchdoctor. I agree with your comments about headroom...presumably meaning dynamic headroom. I got my first proper glimpse of orchestral in our system when the Wilsons first came home. Before that, I had a small collection of orchestral I very rarely played. Then, as part of realizing the potential the Wilsons offered, we spent 2-3 years on amplification, cables, then physical isolation, then emi/rfi shielding. And then we moved and all of that experience came back to recalibrating the system all over again in the new room, but i think it is [possibly] fair to call it 'stabilized/optimized' with what equipment we have in our current room...and it took 4 months instead of 2-3 years.

once a system hits a dynamic limit...where distortion of some sort starts to creep in to a level which becomes objectionable, I tend not to listen to that music as much. That distortion can be there from 'volume 1' due to an inability to separate out the complex instrumentation...an inability to create a satisfactory dynamic range to give the passage its fullest ability to scale up and down as intended...and of course it will very often exist at 'volume 50'...when dynamic crescendos go MUCH higher...and cause the system to effectively crack up. Fortunately, with time and patience, we hear that rarely now (by our standards anyway). But we often heard it on organ until only recently...i still suspect that some of the bigger organ pieces with seriously powerful (and complex) passages are still going to require some further work (probably room acoustics)...but in the meantime, still enjoying the exploration of organ music.

We have just ordered a bunch more organ albums (Richter Bach organ on DG and Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition played by Albrecht) in the same way i started picking up voluminous amounts of orchestral once i realized i was happy to listen to them on the system.

LL21 · Nov 5, 2016

YashN said:
Specifically for classical/orchestral/symphonic/choir afficionados, it's a good approach.

For me, I use the feedback from some of those so as then to look for timbral and soundstage accuracy and some dynamics as my musical preference veers more towards more contemporary sounding music. I hear a lot of people saying the reproduction of choirs is difficult. ...

I will probably not need to have the playback capacity for a proper symphonic reproduction since this is not my main type of music (I do have a tiny collection, several in high-res including Quad DSD), but I do pay attention when people of more classical bent report on their listening impressions. I think anyone who prefers pop/electronic music could benefit greatly in their system by doing so.

I agree. Interestingly, i ALSO find that for any kind of system check, i like using electronic deep house...and it can help me improve the system for classical. The reason is because every sound (no matter how subtle) was almost always specifically placed there by the musician in deep house...and in 90% of the cases, i find that it was ALSO placed there for a specific effect and almost always IN TIME WITH THE BEAT.

As the system has grown more and more resolving, i have found that more and more of 'seemingly random sound effects' are actually dropped into the track and match or are syncopating the main rhythm of the track. And because (unlike violin with its myriad nuances of noises which are sometimes hard to recall/remember)...i find that with deep house electronics, a lot of the super-subtle sound effects are either there...or they are not. And as a result, its a much easier black/white test about noise floor, detail retrieval and the system's ability to track super-subtle rhythms...

All of which then helps me in a much easier way, find ways to improve the system in these areas using these 'easier to listen to CDs'...and these improvements have consistently then allowed me to go back and find that i hear much further into my classical music. my two cents.

Rodney Gold · Nov 5, 2016

Use Hans Zimmer's music , the score to the Batman movies (dark knight rising) or the like. Most of his discography will test any system in many respects. Crank it up...
Yello works well too...

Ron Resnick · Nov 5, 2016

I am very happy for you, LL21, that you are making such great progress!

LL21 · Nov 5, 2016

Rodney Gold said:
Use Hans Zimmer's music , the score to the Batman movies (dark knight rising) or the like. Most of his discography will test any system in many respects. Crank it up...
Yello works well too...

I use both Sherlock Holmes Movie Soundtracks and Dark Knight often!

LL21 · Nov 5, 2016

Ron Resnick said:
I am very happy for you, Lloyd, that you are making such great progress!

Hey Ron! Great to hear from you...hope LA is going well. Let us all know when the mighty Pendragons arrive!

System Test Music: First Piano, Then Large-Scale Orchestra...and Now Organ?

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