Can the ATR-102 Deck fit 14 inch reels or just 10 inch?

14. Some are set up for 10.5, but you can take off the cover and switch to the 14" position. Right now, a friend and I have three 102's - 2 are set at 14" and 1 is set for 10.5". Larry

ATR Services sells them. I know of someone who bought one 6 years ago for $12,000. I bought mine for quite a bit less, but paid for a tech to check it out and fix anything that was wrong. In addition I bought a used Doshi 3.0 tape prepro (quite expensive) and a new ATR 1/2" head stack kit ( more than $3K with Flux Magnetic Extended Response Heads). I checked the ATR Services website and you have to contact them to get prices.

I don't have a Studer, so I don't feel comfortable commenting on them. However, there are several on WBF who have them - not sure how many have A820 or A80's. Ki Choi has a bunch, if he wants to chime in. Both Chad (Acoustic Sounds) and Paul Stubblebine (Tape Project) use ATR-100s and ATR-102's for their tape duplication. It may be that there are more ATR's in the US and more Studers in Europe. Both are workhorse pro machines.

Larry

earlinarizona said:

What is the average price of a fully restored 102 machine 1/4 inch half track from ATR going for? How do you feel it compares to a Studer A820 or A80 machine.

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They generally go for about !4000-18000. I prefer the ATR 102 to either of the Studers. The ATRs just sound better. The Studer A820 has the slickest transport mechanism of them all, but there is a lot that can go wrong with them. Between the A820 and the A80, I prefer the sonics of the A80 (RCMKII). Some more knowledgeable than me in terms of the electronics say it is because the A80 RCMKII does not have op-amps. If you go with outboard after-market output electronics that would negate the op-amps.

Now let's be clear, all these machines represent the best of what is available for tape playback.

jtinn said:

They generally go for about !4000-18000. I prefer the ATR 102 to either of the Studers. The ATRs just sound better. The Studer A820 has the slickest transport mechanism of them all, but there is a lot that can go wrong with them. Between the A820 and the A80, I prefer the sonics of the A80 (RCMKII). Some more knowledgeable than me in terms of the electronics say it is because the A80 RCMKII does not have op-amps. If you go with outboard after-market output electronics that would negate the op-amps.

Now let's be clear, all these machines represent the best of what is available for tape playback.

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I own 2 Studer A-820's and one I've had for 8 years now with zero issues after it was gone through. I also owned an ATR-102 and it was excellent as Jonathan mentions. I agree with all of Jonathan's perspectives.

practically speaking for a tape newbie, the Studer A-820 does have a few advantages in usability which make it a little more easy to live with. (1) it does not need a fan.....so it's quieter in room. you can unplug the fan on the ATR but it's designed to use a fan (it's designed for heavy use as a studio workhorse). the A-820 is designed also as a studio workhorse but with convection cooling. (2) switching EQ's from IEC to NAB is one switch on the A-820, the ATR is much more complicated. if you use outboard electronics this is a non-issue.....and most tapes you will acquire are IEC. but it is an issue. (3) the A-820 is no doubt more elegant to have in room......after all.....it is Swiss.

but the ATR is on the same level, if just a bit different than the A-820. as far as the sound of the stock A-820, if you have the optional 'trafoless' audio cards (transformerless), then I think it is on par with the ATR. one of my A-820's does have those cards. but on this level of RTR master recorders it's likely you would have outboard electronics of some sort. I use the King Cello circuit for both my machines.

a big issue is that support for the ATR machines is more accessible in North America. there are places where there are Studer techs, but parts and help is more challenging. but if you need to get the Studer fixed it can be done.

a good clean A-820 is likely another $6k-$10k higher price than an ATR.....and harder to find.....and harder to know it's condition.

Mike Lavigne said:

a big issue is that support for the ATR machines is more accessible in North America. there are places where there are Studer techs, but parts and help is more challenging. but if you need to get the Studer fixed it can be done.

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You can check around if you have local recording studios to see whether they have ATR's or possibly Studers. They would know whether you have a good technician in your area. If so, I agree with Mike that a used ATR is probably easier to find. I picked up my second ATR-102 about 10 days ago from a local recording studio in SF. It had been purchased from ATR Services in 2006 for $13500 (sorry faulty memory - not $12K in 6 years ago - he gave me a copy of the original invoice). However, it included both 1/4" and 1/2" head stacks (the latter with extended response Flux magnetic record heads.) I use a local tech who does Paul Stubblebine's 5 Tape Project ATR-100's.

One thing, if physical appearance is important, then the ATR's are definitely industrial, while the Studers are more elegant looking.

Larry

PS. Back in 1976 when the Ampex ATR-100 (the predecessor to the 102) came out, it cost $5500 new. Today with inflation, it would cost $23,500. I am guessing that the 102 which was introduced in 1978 may have cost a bit more.

I've compared these things 'til I'm blue in the face. For me, the Studer A80RC MkII is the one to beat.... stock! I've had 3 A820's in here as well as 3 ATR's. Two of the ATR's had the Aria electronics. Never liked them.
As Mike, Jonathan and Larry have said, "good" Studers in the U.S. are like the holy grail. I use the Doshi 3.0 outboard electronics on two of mine. The other has modified internal cards. It's just another flavor. The only time I've liked the ATR is playing Nirvanna or Pearl Jam!!

Bruce B said:

I've compared these things 'til I'm blue in the face. For me, the Studer A80RC MkII is the one to beat.... stock! I've had 3 A820's in here as well as 3 ATR's. Two of the ATR's had the Aria electronics. Never liked them.
As Mike, Jonathan and Larry have said, "good" Studers in the U.S. are like the holy grail. I use the Doshi 3.0 outboard electronics on two of mine. The other has modified internal cards. It's just another flavor. The only time I've liked the ATR is playing Nirvanna or Pearl Jam!!

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Bruce, what mods have been done to the internal cards of your one A80 and did you do it because that unit is a VU instead of an RC?

jtinn said:

They generally go for about !4000-18000. I prefer the ATR 102 to either of the Studers. The ATRs just sound better. The Studer A820 has the slickest transport mechanism of them all, but there is a lot that can go wrong with them. Between the A820 and the A80, I prefer the sonics of the A80 (RCMKII). Some more knowledgeable than me in terms of the electronics say it is because the A80 RCMKII does not have op-amps. If you go with outboard after-market output electronics that would negate the op-amps.

Now let's be clear, all these machines represent the best of what is available for tape playback.

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Spot on price-wise. I bought an ATR-102 with dual flux magnetics head-blocks from a member here who purchased it new in 2011 from ATR Services for a hefty $16200 (I have the original detailed invoice somewhere). It has the switch to bypass the stock electronics for an outboard pre - the seller bundled a King Cello pre with the sale. Mine was built by Mike Spitz and I was told by John Molino (Burbank CA tech who serviced my ATR prior to sale) that it has Mike's signature frequency curve. I think that's pretty cool since Mike has left quite a legacy in the tape world. Today, my same machine would cost $18k from ATR - worth every penny if you have the need / desire and can afford it as it's essentially a brand new machine.

I was fortunate to pick up a second machine - what I thought would be a parts machine, but runs perfectly - for only $1k. The heads need to be relapped, but it still sounds great. I have yet to do a direct comparison between my Spitz-102 and my 'beater' 102, nor with my ATRs versus the A80.

As an aside, Fred Thal produces A80RC XLR mounted audio cards that bypass the onboard audio electronics, but unfortunately he only sells them to clients. I would love to have something like that to be able to quickly and easily switch between the outboard pre and stock electronics while leaving my machine bone stock.

Mike Lavigne said:

...As far as the sound of the stock A-820, if you have the optional 'trafoless' audio cards (transformerless), then I think it is on par with the ATR. one of my A-820's does have those cards. but on this level of RTR master recorders it's likely you would have outboard electronics of some sort. I use the King Cello circuit for both my machines.

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Mike, between the trafo and trafoless cards you hear a significant difference? I just bought a pair of trafoless cards for my A810 that will work in my A820 once I get it, so I'm looking forward to hearing the difference between trafo/trafoless and hoping it was worth the purchase price

earlinarizona said:

How do you feel it compares to a Studer A820 or A80 machine.

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Hello Earl,

The Ampex ATR-102 versus the Studer A820 (or it's predecessor, the A80) is an often heard argument that's been running for over 30 years now.

Sort of like the Chevrolet Corvette versus the Porsche 911.

To me, it's disqualifying when the argument doesn't acknowledge major, fundamental design distinctions, like front engine, rear drive, or rear engine, rear drive.

It's important to understand and respect the fundamental differences in different tape machine designs. Otherwise, a discussion purportedly comparing them reduces to nonsense and babble.

Top-quality, servo constant tension tape transports are perhaps ten times more complex than any turntable. (So how on earth could anyone expect to build one to sell for only $4500?)

Unless you believe that scrape flutter is inaudible, the time base accuracy of a tape transport needs to be examined across a wide band. While the ATR-102 and the A820 have many things in common, they are also very, very different, in a fundamental design sense. Why is this almost never mentioned by anyone? Is there no interest in really understanding tape transports?

Fred Thal
ataudioeng.com