Is the big rig too good for our own good??

DaveyF said:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. To me, if there is a piece of music...whether it is RAP or Classical or any other genre, and I happen to hear it and like it, well I couldn't give a rats ass what I heard it on. Distorted or not, if the music gets inside me, well that's what it is all about. Maybe I am coming from my musician background here...and not so much my a'phile background. So be it.

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You're making up your own conclusion, it has nothing to do with being an audiophile or not I see my wife doing the same in the car, low back ground level around town and off when we have to raise the volume. I have walked out of shitty amplified venues for the same reason.

david

DaveyF said:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. To me, if there is a piece of music...whether it is RAP or Classical or any other genre, and I happen to hear it and like it, well I couldn't give a rats ass what I heard it on. Distorted or not, if the music gets inside me, well that's what it is all about. Maybe I am coming from my musician background here...and not so much my a'phile background. So be it.

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+100.

personally; there is something so personal and involving about listening to the right music in the right mood inside a car. and the fidelity has little or nothing to do with it.

one of the most locked in memories of my youth was traveling down Highway 1 in Big Sur during Spring Break in my 64' MGB with the top down and the 8 track rocking.......of course, other memorable 'in-car' memories with music from my youth don't involve actually driving....

and I had a fairly 'kick-ass' dorm room system at the time.....

Johnny Vinyl said:

Can one sound anymore pretentious? Give it a break and open your mind. The world doesn't revolve around classical alone.

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Johnny Vinyl said:

Sorry Al, but it doesn't read that way to me. If he's such a big fan, yet finds no use to play it on his hifi then I suggest he's no fan. And quite frankly I see a lot of that. There seems to be more interest in sound quality than the music itself. Maybe that's why the audiophile record pap is so popular.

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Wow you like to attack. Do you know the led zep double DVD of their live shows, how the West was won, page and plant double DVD, and what June 21 1977 means in led zep timeline? These things are off poor quality. But just superb, superb music. Bonham became a much better drummer 1975 onwards. He is boring in studio. Listen to page's leads. Anyone with a HiFi system won't be able to listen to this, and like you said, will be more interested in SQ than music. So you are partially right.

And yes, classical requires 50 acoustical instruments, and based on reproducing more frequencies simultaneously as well as more voltages, requires a HiFi system. But I doubt you would have realized all this, since you like to attack instead of learning. And yes, I follow a Damn good led zep cover band

Mike Lavigne said:

personally; there is something so personal and involving about listening to the right music in the right mood inside a car. and the fidelity has little or nothing to do with it.

one of the most locked in memories of my youth was traveling down Highway 1 in Big Sur during Spring Break in my 64' MGB with the top down and the 8 track rocking.......of course, other memorable 'in-car' memories with music from my youth don't involve actually driving....

and I had a fairly 'kick-ass' dorm room system at the time.....

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I've backpacked and car camped down in Big Sur more times than I can count. That is God's country. Mike, I'm with you, brother. Southbound Highway 1 from Carmel to Big Sur is about as good as it gets. '64 MGB with some good tunes... man, I'd take that experience over almost anything, easily over the best high end, dedicated rooms, I've ever experienced. Scuba off the southern coast of Lanai, swimming with the spinner dolphins, may be the only thing I can think of that is better.

I have got to find a way to get up to Seattle again and spend a day with you and share some tunes. I haven't been up your way in maybe 25 years. Flew into Seattle, then took a float plane to Port Angeles, then did 5 days of backpacking in the Olympic Rainforest. Heaviest average rainfall in the continental U.S., at least at that time: 144 inches. Lush. Green. Stunning.

I just came back from the mountain, walking through the forest with three dogs and one human friend.
Driving to get there first we talked, about families and Trump vs Hillary, and we laughed. No music playing on the radio, no CD in the CD player.
And in the forest only the sounds of our voices, squirrels, rabbits, eagles, creeks, waterfalls, some light wind.

* Led Zeppelin; it's Rock&Roll music, the best. Not audiophile classical music, but party musik, for dancing, for having orgies @ home and on the road...do it on the road.


Lol, that tune ? ? is for the radio, the tape deck in the car (8-track), not for home where the sacred sanctuary of the music world is. ...Or unless having fun from the 45.
Ry Cooder, Lou Reed, Patti Smith, Iggy Pop, Sex Pistols, T. Rex, James Brown, ... that's party music, that's live music, that's church music, that's road music for the roadies, the party goers, punk dancers, easy goers, soft pop, easy listening, soft rock, head bangers, tra-la-la, ...only the first three artists can be play on an audiophile system with some reservation, as compared to classical, chamber, choral, opera, and jazz. That's how I operate, that's my own journey today, not yesterday, and tomorrow we'll see. I'm just being humorous.


That's my life, that's my humor, that's respectable. :b Lol, I want to be free.


That's car musik man! I just don't want those awesome classics from yesteryears to pollute my careful home setting. Lol I just love Led Zeppelin, the Stones, CCR, Queen, the Beatles, the Bee Gees, the Beach Boys, Roy Orbison, T.Rex, Patti Smith, Iggy (fun to watch), Ozzy (fun to watch), Lou Reed, ...


Buy the most comfortable car, soundproof, and hire a chauffeur, sit in the back of the limo, with a glass of champagne, a beautiful companion, and spin a record on the turntable of that limo, ...the great Caruso.


Lol, we love when we play, we happy living with the music on the move, in the car if it rocks our boat just the right way.
Not two members here are exactly the same. We judge no one, we love everyone, in their own crazy ways. Craziness is what defines us, it's great to be crazy in this world we all live in today, it is liberating, like a fresh pouf of air coming down the mountains...
Yeah, I am crazy, crazy in love with life. :b ...And the ? I love in it where and when it is playing and not.

I just came back from the mountain, the natural sounds from the forest was the most beautiful ? tune ? I've heard so far today, this morning, just a bit earlier.

It is an interesting thread and it is also not such an unusual occurrence.

I listen critically a lot, which is part of this hobby for me since I also write reviews for Positive Feedback that hopefully you guys read with some interest in my opinion on the sound of equipment. As part of my critical listening, I tend to focus more on recordings that allow me to hear the various potential problem areas of gear and assess transparency, tone, dynamics, homogeniety, separation, soundstage, imaging etc. That mostly excludes a lot of overprocessed pop/rock music as a critical listening tool...but not all of it. Also, there is a goodly amount of well recorded electronic music (Yello "Touch" is a good example) that allows some critical assessment. Now, a lot of rock music from the 60s-early 80s is not so compressed and sounds quite open and dynamic. The Police "Ghost in the Machine" is a good example as is ZZ Top "Deguelo".

My system is of course optimized to reproduce top recordings with maximum fidelity and this means top Jazz recordings from ECM and classical from Decca can sound spookily realistic; however, i can also throw on the above mentioned recordings or something like Iron Maiden "Piece of Mind" (got it on reissued vinyl ) or Moby "18" and still get really enjoyable sound even if the recording flaws and tricks are obvious. The musical message is not utterly destroyed in the analysis of the music.

Too many systems are mistaking distortions that lead to a hyper-analytical sound as "transparency" "resolution" and "neutrality". The sad truth is that systems that destroy the music in a hyper-analysis are exaggerating distortions that are often in the recording, making them unbearable. Being able to hear a flaw and being able to tolerate the flaw are two different things. If a recording is a bit bright and thin then a system that emphasises the leading edges of notes rather than the body of the notes will tend to push such recordings into the unbearable range.

Interestingly, most car systems I have heard tend to deemphasize treble thus leading to a bit of softer "ride". I noticed this right away in my Infinity, which has a Bose system. It is definitely on the bass heavy end of the spectrum, which works great for thinned out and compressed recordings. You put on a really good Jazz or Classical recording in the car and you hear right away that A) The dynamic range is way to high and it is hard to get a volume setting that works over road noise and blowing you out of the car and B) The frequency balance benefits thinner recordings. Finally, in a car there is a different environment where music is all around you and this makes for a quite different experience than music coming from just in front of you...it pressurizes in a different way. I think most car systems are balanced more on the bass heavy end because you seem to be able to do this in a car far easier than at home...perhaps the shape inside the car helps a lot? At home you tend to get really boomy loose bass when you try to balance it like in a car.

So, while I love to listen to Red Hot Chilli Peppers or U2 or Rush at home...I like it even more in the car usually or through headphones (a third kind of experience) but natural acoustic music with wide dynamics is far better served with the home rig.

Finally, you naturally listen a bit less critically to this kind of music, although you can easily listen to Steely Dan, Dire Straits, Supertramp or Pink Floyd critically as these tend to be pretty good recordings.

bonzo75 said:

Wow you like to attack. Do you know the led zep double DVD of their live shows, how the West was won, page and plant double DVD, and what June 21 1977 means in led zep timeline? These things are off poor quality. But just superb, superb music. Bonham became a much better drummer 1975 onwards. He is boring in studio. Listen to page's leads. Anyone with a HiFi system won't be able to listen to this, and like you said, will be more interested in SQ than music. So you are partially right.

And yes, classical requires 50 acoustical instruments, and based on reproducing more frequencies simultaneously as well as more voltages, requires a HiFi system. But I doubt you would have realized all this, since you like to attack instead of learning. And yes, I follow a Damn good led zep cover band

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With everything I've read and followed in the last few years here my post is mild is comparison, but I'll grant you it was a tad aggressive. You said there was no point in listening to LZ on a hifi...and that is what I took exception to as it did IMHO sounded rather pretentious.

I know the majority of those early DVD's are crap, but I thought this was about 2CH audio, not video. Had you made that clear we wouldn't be having this back and forth. Oh, and don't assume what I may or may not know or that I have no interest in learning. My post history spells out very clearly that learning is a huge part of my being here. You probably hadn't picked up on that as you likely fly over my posts.

You have a nice day and I'll do my best to return to my usual posting style.

Cheers!

Mike Lavigne said:

personally; there is something so personal and involving about listening to the right music in the right mood inside a car. and the fidelity has little or nothing to do with it.

one of the most locked in memories of my youth was traveling down Highway 1 in Big Sur during Spring Break in my 64' MGB with the top down and the 8 track rocking.......of course, other memorable 'in-car' memories with music from my youth don't involve actually driving....

and I had a fairly 'kick-ass' dorm room system at the time.....

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I'm all for that too Mike, my comments are limited to modern day car systems. I had no issues with the old Becker radios or whatever I installed myself...

david

I'm all for that too Mike, my comments are limited to modern day car systems. I had no issues with the old Becker radios or whatever I installed myself...

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Yeah give me an old Pioneer radio and a pair Jensen 6X9's Heaven!

Rob

ddk said:

I'm all for that too Mike, my comments are limited to modern day car systems. I had no issues with the old Becker radios or whatever I installed myself...

david

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David,

you have to understand I've spent my whole professional life defending automobile sound systems to customers so I simply don't allow them to keep me from enjoying my car time. and I accept the benefits of integrated systems in cars and the restrictions that they involve. some of the biggest 'clusters' I've seen involve people messing with automobile wiring looms.

anyway.....Becker, Blauplunkt, and other radio/stereo's from the 60's and 70's bring back fond memories. our expectations were not much, and they fulfilled them.

DaveyF said:

Actually, I do not think that being able to "blast" it without comments from the peanut gallery is much of a factor here. Certainly for me it is not. Otoh, the type of music does seem to 'translate' better sometimes on the less resolving system. An example of this is...Linkin Park, a group that I particularly like. However, I don't think they sound that enjoyable on the big rig, while on the car system...or cheap headphones, they are very much to my liking.

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Bingo, so in a nutshell some styles of music sounds better in your car, cool.

I have a desktop system with JBL speakers and something about the way hip hop music come through on them is just "right", not necessarily better then the big rig, but different and right. I can relate.

Mike Lavigne said:

David,

you have to understand I've spent my whole professional life defending automobile sound systems to customers so I simply don't allow them to keep me from enjoying my car time. and I accept the benefits of integrated systems in cars and the restrictions that they involve. some of the biggest 'clusters' I've seen involve people messing with automobile wiring looms.

anyway.....Becker, Blauplunkt, and other radio/stereo's from the 60's and 70's bring back fond memories. our expectations were not much, and they fulfilled them.

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I recognize your predicament Mike, keep on cruisin'!

Fundamentally, to me, rock’n’roll is the sound of compression.

As Jack alludes to earlier, it’s not a bad thing per se.

The fact is a guitar amp driven into distortion - either through cranking its master volume, its gain, or overdriving it from a pedal in front of the amp, which happens on pretty much every single rock guitar track you’ve ever heard - is in itself a form of compression (although more accurately, it’s just the signal clipping). So already compression is happening before anything’s reached a mic-pre.

And if we go back to the early stages of rock, and in particular, the bands that would define that sound for… well, for everyone else who’s ever played rock’n’roll and its offshoots into punk, metal and its sub-variants, whether it was the Beatles (Fairchild 660/670, Altec 436B, EMI RS124), Led Zeppelin (RCA BA6A, 1176, Helios), Jimi Hendrix (the PYE), et al - there’s compression over all that stuff. And not just in mixing and mastering. They were tracking with compression - shaping sounds the world had never heard before and would be impossible to achieve without it. The reason many of us love those bands is because they were not just carving out new musical sensibilities but sonic ones as well. It’s almost impossible to conceive of those albums and the music they made separate to its sound, so intwined are the two.

I know no-one’s pointing any fingers, and if we were, I’m sure they’d all point to brickwall limiting during mastering, right? It’s one thing to compress, another to crush (although it can have it's place when used creatively, like the Sicario OST for instance). But asking rock music to be something it’s not - especially when its idiosyncrasy is intrinsically linked to its sound and that sound is the sound of compression - is not only a little unfair, it's to miss what makes it so unique.

Just my two cents.

I think the majority of you are over - analyzing. Music, irrespective of genre can be and should be enjoyed everywhere - car, computer, 2 channel "audiophile" system, phone w/earbuds, etc. You don't need a specific environment to enjoy classical or metal or anything in between. However, since the bar for fidelity transparency is higher with your hi-fi system your % of musical enjoyment may be diminished depending on your willingness to listen to sub - perfect recordings.

Davey started this thread, only him should be blamed for all our perturbations between our homes and our cars.

He's right though; some music plays better in the car and some music plays better @ home.
Our car sound systems are just not generally as good as our more expansive home sound systems. Most music was recorded to play in inferior sound systems.
The proof: the other day my friend pro musician told me that the first thing they did when their records were released was to play the tape in their cars! Very true.
Other music was created to play on open-reel tapes...classical chamber music. And those are not compressed recordings to play on our iPods that we can download from iTunes for a dollar a song. No, tapes are between $150 and $600 each, depending. That's all.

There is nothing more simple than that. :b When you have a quarter million sound system you don't play no Reggae no Punk no Rap no Heavy Metal no Rock@Roll no Pop music recorded for the masses on it. You play only the Best. Not that Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath and Jimi Hendrix and Bob Dylan and Bob Marley and Yello are bad; to the contrary, it's all good music we grew up with. We just prefer more sophisticated music, that's all. Like Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Cat Stevens and Jean-Michel Jarre. ;-)

And no; nobody here is over-analyzing anything. Because if we would we wouldn't be talking about high grade fuses, matching tubes, chocolate boxes, red roses and gold plated connections. ;-)

This is a general view; my view, and anyone can object to my view...with respect.

NorthStar said:

Davey started this thread, only him should be blamed for all our perturbations between our homes and our cars.

He's right though; some music plays better in the car and some music plays better @ home.
Our car sound systems are just not generally as good as our more expansive home sound systems. Most music was recorded to play in inferior sound systems.
The proof: the other day my friend pro musician told me that the first thing they did when their records were released was to play the tape in their cars! Very true.
Other music was created to play on open-reel tapes...classical chamber music. And those are not compressed recordings to play on our iPods that we can download from iTunes for a dollar a song. No, tapes are between $150 and $600 each, depending. That's all.

There is nothing more simple than that. :b When you have a quarter million sound system you don't play no Reggae no Punk no Rap no Heavy Metal no Rock@Roll no Pop music recorded for the masses on it. You play only the Best. Not that Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath and Jimi Hendrix and Bob Dylan and Bob Marley and Yello are bad; to the contrary, it's all good music we grew up with. We just prefer more sophisticated music, that's all. Like Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Cat Stevens and Jean-Michel Jarre. ;-)

And no; nobody here is over-analyzing anything. Because if we would we wouldn't be talking about high grade fuses, matching tubes, chocolate boxes, red roses and gold plated connections. ;-)

This is a general view; my view, and anyone can object to my view...with respect.

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I object - with respect ;-)

BTW - There is plenty of audiophile acceptable recorded rock and reggae - listen to Bob Marley for example, ya mon!!

sbo6 said:

I think the majority of you are over - analyzing..

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This could never happen here!

I just accept it for what it is and where it is and am happy that its there.

I am with Mike on the defending the automotive part of it though.

Truth be told Metallica And Justice For All sounds great on EVERY system and will without doubt overdrive your bottom end into ear to ear grinning heavenly bliss.

There is one Enterprise car out there that learned that the hard way!

Mike Lavigne said:

David,

you have to understand I've spent my whole professional life defending automobile sound systems to customers so I simply don't allow them to keep me from enjoying my car time. and I accept the benefits of integrated systems in cars and the restrictions that they involve. some of the biggest 'clusters' I've seen involve people messing with automobile wiring looms.

anyway.....Becker, Blauplunkt, and other radio/stereo's from the 60's and 70's bring back fond memories. our expectations were not much, and they fulfilled them.

Click to expand...

Becker and Blauplunkt were the radios to get back in the 80s also. Haven't thought about that in years, thanks!

Ron Party said:

I've backpacked and car camped down in Big Sur more times than I can count. That is God's country. Mike, I'm with you, brother. Southbound Highway 1 from Carmel to Big Sur is about as good as it gets. '64 MGB with some good tunes... man, I'd take that experience over almost anything, easily over the best high end, dedicated rooms, I've ever experienced. Scuba off the southern coast of Lanai, swimming with the spinner dolphins, may be the only thing I can think of that is better.

I have got to find a way to get up to Seattle again and spend a day with you and share some tunes. I haven't been up your way in maybe 25 years. Flew into Seattle, then took a float plane to Port Angeles, then did 5 days of backpacking in the Olympic Rainforest. Heaviest average rainfall in the continental U.S., at least at that time: 144 inches. Lush. Green. Stunning.

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Ron,

you would be most welcome any time.

love Big Sur and also up in the Redwoods too. both those spots were memorable that spring of 1971........

my wife and spent 4 days on the Olympic Peninsula (Pt. Townsend to Port Angeles) in August. lovely spot. went into Olympic Nat. park at Hurricane Ridge (easy to see across the Strait to Victoria and Vancouver, B.C.) . such a beautiful area and so many things to do. great restaurants too. we don't back pack (my wife has some infirmaries that restrict that) but my daughter and son-in-law do (she is the director of Washington Trails, a non-profit that maintains the hiking trails in this State). yes; lots of rain over on the Quinault river rain forest.....but the northeast peninsula is actually quite dry in the rain shadow.

not been to Lanai, but been to Kawai 8 or 9 times back in the 80's and 90's and love the North Shore there.....Ki beach and hiking the Napali numerous times in years past. special spot and has that magical quality.....

hope to see you here some time......