dCS vs Esoteric

SCAudiophile · Oct 17, 2016

Keith_W said:
I am curious which outboard clock you have used with the NADAC?

You think? Here is a picture of my NADAC MC-8:

View attachment 29441

And just for fun, here is a picture of the inside of a Bricasti M1 Dual Mono, which sells for half the price:

View attachment 29442

Here are a few things to note:

- NADAC has a switch mode power supply that powers everything. The Bricasti has three toroidal transformers.

- The digital and analog section in the NADAC are on the same board. On the Bricasti, they are on separate boards with separate power supplies.

- The NADAC uses two Sabre ESS 9008S chips. Not the 9018S. Not the new 9028/9038. The reason - they believe that these chips sound better than the newer Sabre chips. Also, note that this 8 channel DAC (which costs $1000 more than the two channel DAC) - has TWO DAC chips. Not 8. Other DAC's at this price point are not using an off-the-shelf chip but using FPGA's (Playback Designs) or custom discrete designs (DCS, MSB, Lampi)? Even a humble Oppo BDP-105 has the ESS9018S.

- The oscillator crystal is not oven controlled.

I don't deny that the NADAC sounds good. It definitely does. But I think my Playback Designs MPS-5, with the latest firmware upgrades, sounds better. And i'll point out again - that Bricasti DAC, which costs half of the NADAC, has a much more purist design. When we are in NADAC territory, your money can buy you MSB and DCS. Both of these companies have long pedigrees in the audiophile world. With a NADAC, you get an off-the-shelf DAC chip which is a lower end model to what is fitted to an Oppo DVD player.

The last time I made a post like this, I received an email from my Merging distributor. Well, all I am doing is stating facts. It is a fact that they use the 9008S. It is a fact that other DAC's in this price bracket have a more purist design. You can, if you wish, choose to dismiss toroidal power supplies, separate Analog/Digital sections, etc etc as audiophile fluff. You can, if you wish, believe their claims that they chose the Sabre 9008S because it sounds superior to the more expensive chips in the Sabre lineup. But anybody can look at what is inside the DAC, look at what else is on the market, and draw their own conclusions.

If this is "as good as digital can get", I wonder how much better it would be if it was designed like a Bricasti M1.

Agreed...I would also not compare this up against Bricasti, Esoteric, Playback Designs, DCS, EMM, and other high-end DACs. According to reviewers and users it sounds good but to compare
what amounts to a (brilliant idea) of a Ravenna-compliant network-attached computer I/O harness with switched mode power supply fronting and patching in a computer DAC card that is
patched in with commodity Coax and USB cables is a classic apples and oranges comparison. All that stated given what others state about the sound, I could see this being put out there
as a $5,000 USD device (and might even consider buying one as the idea is brilliant), but (if I read the various material correctly), at approximately $10,000 USD I don't see how anyone
could argue it's worth that based upon what we see, and what we don't see inside the box. From a computer-engineering point of view, it's a nice, clean piece of work, but I would have
swapped out that switched-mode/wart power supply block and put in a proper linear, regulated power supply. That in and of itself alone could elevate the performance even further.

Will say at the outset that I am not looking to flame/offend anyone or their purchase or this manufacturer, only to point out some obvious design differences between this and audiophile-designed components.

bonzo75 · Oct 17, 2016

zephyr24069 said:
Agreed...I would also not compare this up against Bricasti, Esoteric, Playback Designs, DCS, EMM, and other high-end DACs.

So why are these high end dacs? I know too many who have moved from PD to Lampi, none the other way. I have compared to the K01, K01X, and K01 with a clock and these were disappointing. In fact my friend is considering swapping his K01 with clock for a Lampi - a bit of concern about valves and potential kids so he wants to figure out a cage, and the budget, but otherwise these are no comparison. I don't know much about the Nadac but at least it is lower priced, and offers MCH flexibility and the ability to crossover subs.

SCAudiophile · Oct 17, 2016

bonzo75 said:
So why are these high end dacs? I know too many who have moved from PD to Lampi, none the other way. I have compared to the K01, K01X, and K01 with a clock and these were disappointing. In fact my friend is considering swapping his K01 with clock for a Lampi - a bit of concern about valves and potential kids so he wants to figure out a cage, and the budget, but otherwise these are no comparison. I don't know much about the Nadac but at least it is lower priced, and offers MCH flexibility and the ability to crossover subs.

We'll leave that to others to answer the question. When I said 'other high-end DACs' that is meant to include the many high-end contenders out there including Lampi (Lukasz does great work and I've heard the units at friends' places), Auralic and many others. There is also (I believe), no 1 best DAC so there is alot of room for people such as ourselves to each prefer different models, brands, styles of presentation, etc....

As to your friend who is considering swapping a K01 with clock for a Lampi (DAC?) he'll be giving up the transport for CD and SACD as the K-01 and K-01X are one-box players with substantial DAC sections,
not just DACs. What does he plan to move to for a transport (if he needs one at all) if he picks up the Lampi DAC? Again, the various Lampi DACs sound amazing (to my ears); I'm sure he will be very happy.

jfrech · Oct 17, 2016

sbo6 said:
I've always found DCS to have ultimate finesse vs. Esoteric's ultimate bass weight and better dynamics. My $ would likely be on a K-01 + Cybershaft Clock (saves some $) =~$21K vs. Rossini with it's matching clock = $28K + 8K = $36K. Also, I've heard DCS having quality issues vs. never any problems with Esoteric. Would be interesting for those with both to chime in wrt repairs.So there's that.

dCS may have had some transport issues in a lower end model quite a few years ago. Pretty sure they either repaired or replaced every single one...I'm guessing the owners of that discontinued model are happy with the end result...dCS doesn't have quality issues, in my opinion, it was part issue in one model...that they rectified.

bonzo75 · Oct 17, 2016

zephyr24069 said:
We'll leave that to others to answer the question. When I said 'other high-end DACs' that is meant to include the many high-end contenders out there including Lampi (Lukasz does great work and I've heard the units at friends' places), Auralic and many others. There is also (I believe), no 1 best DAC so there is alot of room for people such as ourselves to each prefer different models, brands, styles of presentation, etc....

As to your friend who is considering swapping a K01 with clock for a Lampi (DAC?) he'll be giving up the transport for CD and SACD as the K-01 and K-01X are one-box players with substantial DAC sections,
not just DACs. What does he plan to move to for a transport (if he needs one at all) if he picks up the Lampi DAC? Again, the various Lampi DACs sound amazing (to my ears); I'm sure he will be very happy.

A streamer like Auralic Aries.

Sorry, but my frustration was at why were people bashing a dac (NADAC) when at least it’s lower priced. The others are not necessarily all that better, just higher priced, at least NADAC offers higher functionality. All I am saying is that it is wrong to generally beat up certain dacs and put others down without comparisons. And yes, I do have a bone against expensive stuff which I believe does not sound good, rather than relatively less expensive stuff which may not sound good.

microstrip · Oct 17, 2016

jfrech said:
dCS may have had some transport issues in a lower end model quite a few years ago. Pretty sure they either repaired or replaced every single one...I'm guessing the owners of that discontinued model are happy with the end result...dCS doesn't have quality issues, in my opinion, it was part issue in one model...that they rectified.

I can confirm, as at that time I was already interested in their products and learned about it. It was not only dCS - many famous brands had problems with oem SACD mechanisms and lasers a few years ago. I think it is why dCS decided not to include a SACD player in the Rossini - it would increase significantly the price if they had to get a quality transport, such as used in the Vivaldi. At that time, however it was a serious and difficult to solve problem for DCS.

microstrip · Oct 17, 2016

bonzo75 said:
(....) All I am saying is that it is wrong to generally beat up certain dacs and put others down without comparisons. And yes, I do have a bone against expensive stuff which I believe does not sound good, rather than relatively less expensive stuff which may not sound good.

People still stick to the isolated audio equipment paradigm. The typical comparison - just direct swapping - is a joke IMHO. You are mostly testing compatibility and synergy with the system.

Unfortunately I have found that most of the time the expensive stuff in general sounds good - the poor sounding ones are exceptions, but they exist, surely!

However we have to do our homework to make them sound good in adequate systems - the high-end is not a plug and play affair. In all fairness I think that no one can guess which of the two DACs will sound better in MadFloyd system in a direct comparison without system optimization. But we are happy to suggest our favorites ...

bonzo75 · Oct 17, 2016

microstrip said:
People still stick to the isolated audio equipment paradigm. The typical comparison - just direct swapping - is a joke IMHO. You are mostly testing compatibility and synergy with the system.

Unfortunately I have found that most of the time the expensive stuff in general sounds good - the poor sounding ones are exceptions, but they exist, surely!

However we have to do our homework to make them sound good in adequate systems - the high-end is not a plug and play affair. In all fairness I think that no one can guess which of the two DACs will sound better in MadFloyd system in a direct comparison without system optimization. But we are happy to suggest our favorites ...

Actually, I tested the Lampi in systems set up for the CDs. The plug and play sounded better. I have generally found that after a certain level price is a marketing ploy. There are very some cases as exceptions

MadFloyd · Oct 17, 2016

Well this has been enlightening!

microstrip · Oct 17, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Actually, I tested the Lampi in systems set up for the CDs. The plug and play sounded better. I have generally found that after a certain level price is a marketing ploy. There are very some cases as exceptions

Interesting. I would have appreciated listening to a Lampizator. But unfortunately it is not distributed in my country and the few reports I find exclusively in forums and internet sites were not enough to trigger my attention, on the contrary.

I am always prepared to learn, but less and less interested on the cult of the unique and the unobtainium. This is an hobby and we have different ways of living it - it is what makes it enjoyable to discuss.

Can you quote a number for the level of price are you addressing?

SCAudiophile · Oct 17, 2016

bonzo75 said:
A streamer like Auralic Aries.

Sorry, but my frustration was at why were people bashing a dac (NADAC) when at least it’s lower priced. The others are not necessarily all that better, just higher priced, at least NADAC offers higher functionality. All I am saying is that it is wrong to generally beat up certain dacs and put others down without comparisons. And yes, I do have a bone against expensive stuff which I believe does not sound good, rather than relatively less expensive stuff which may not sound good.

Please read my post again; I was not beating up the NADAC, just stating opinions (which can be discarded if you don't like them) based upon making peer to peer comparisons and not based upon price. You will also see compliments to the idea of the NADAC itself, use of Ravenna, etc....My only price comment was on relative price points from a hardware engineering point of view and parts/complexity of what's inside.

bonzo75 · Oct 17, 2016

zephyr24069 said:
Please read my post again; I was not beating up the NADAC, just stating opinions (which can be discarded if you don't like them) based upon making peer to peer comparisons and not based upon price. You will also see compliments to the idea of the NADAC itself, use of Ravenna, etc....My only price comment was on relative price points from a hardware engineering point of view and parts/complexity of what's inside.

If it's sonically compared, then fine. I initially read posts based purely on design.

Also, I believe that digital as a medium is not good enough and is improved by DRC. NADAC due to its multiple outputs allows the flexibility of connecting subs and implementing DRC better. I have never experimented but this is something dallasjustice was toying with, and it is possible that it will fit into DRC better than other dacs would (again, fyi, my personal belief is most dacs sound bad, so why go expensive).

bonzo75 · Oct 17, 2016

microstrip said:
Interesting. I would have appreciated listening to a Lampizator. But unfortunately it is not distributed in my country and the few reports I find exclusively in forums and internet sites were not enough to trigger my attention, on the contrary.

I am always prepared to learn, but less and less interested on the cult of the unique and the unobtainium. This is an hobby and we have different ways of living it - it is what makes it enjoyable to discuss.

Can you quote a number for the level of price are you addressing?

I know you didn't listen to the Lampi else you would have bought it

This is not about Lampi or DCS, this is about how different people make different decisions. I would never have bought a more expensive component without comparing it to a less expensive component to see if the added price was worth it, and would have traveled to do so. Whether it be dcs or esoteric against the Lampi, Lampi against a 3k dac, or Techdas against something cheaper. Yes, the more expensive component might win (the Techdas for example is fantastic, and in most systems would win), but I would stress test it first. So obviously you have noticed one of my pet peeves is when price is used to convey quality or "high end", instead of actual experience. If someone wants to buy the more expensive that's fine, it is easier to find, buy, has better service - but then shouldn't necessarily be touted as better sonics, unless hearing comparisons have proven so.

I am not necessarily interested in the cult of the unique and the unobtanium. Lampi and shun mooks are not. The restored Apogees and Wester Electrics are to a large extent. Trios are not. My smaller speaker back up favorites, Stenheim Alumine 5, YG Hailey, are not, but hORNS Universum is. Techdas isn't, Thorens Ref is, though I can't afford either. Schopper Thorens 124 sounds so but is easily available and serviceable. The cartridges I prefer with limited experience are normal ones. I am not ideological about any cult, but do enough legwork to know what a sham pricing is.

JimmyS · Oct 17, 2016

Before pulling the trigger on the Rossini, I was in a similar situation with how to handle CD/SACD's. My CD collection has been mostly ripped to losses FLAC, so network streaming is my primary playback source. I have a Marantz SACD player that I use as a transport to feed the Rossini for occasional CD playback and its analog outs for SACD's.

For SACD, I was thinking about getting the DCS transport but when the OPPO firmware to rip SACD's was released I went ahead and purchased a player to begin ripping my SACD's. Couldnt happier and saved myself some $$

.

MadFloyd · Oct 17, 2016

JimmyS said:
Before pulling the trigger on the Rossini, I was in a similar situation with how to handle CD/SACD's. My CD collection has been mostly ripped to losses FLAC, so network streaming is my primary playback source. I have a Marantz SACD player that I use as a transport to feed the Rossini for occasional CD playback and its analog outs for SACD's.

For SACD, I was thinking about getting the DCS transport but when the OPPO firmware to rip SACD's was released I went ahead and purchased a player to begin ripping my SACD's. Couldnt happier and saved myself some $$ .

Oppo firmware to rip SACDs?? I'll have to look that one up. I have many SACD rips but I've had to rely on others to do it for me... if I could rip my own I wouldn't care about a transport.

Are you happy with your Rossini from a sonic perspective?

microstrip · Oct 17, 2016

bonzo75 said:
(...) Also, I believe that digital as a medium is not good enough and is improved by DRC. NADAC due to its multiple outputs allows the flexibility of connecting subs and implementing DRC better. I have never experimented but this is something dallasjustice was toying with, and it is possible that it will fit into DRC better than other dacs would (again, fyi, my personal belief is most dacs sound bad, so why go expensive).

I see. Nice to know your views on digital. Are you wanting to use exotic tubes in the DAC as an "A(analog)"RC?

microstrip · Oct 17, 2016

JimmyS said:
Before pulling the trigger on the Rossini, I was in a similar situation with how to handle CD/SACD's. My CD collection has been mostly ripped to losses FLAC, so network streaming is my primary playback source. I have a Marantz SACD player that I use as a transport to feed the Rossini for occasional CD playback and its analog outs for SACD's.

For SACD, I was thinking about getting the DCS transport but when the OPPO firmware to rip SACD's was released I went ahead and purchased a player to begin ripping my SACD's. Couldnt happier and saved myself some $$ .

How long does it take to get a SACD ripped in a DFF file? I am still looking for the time to try the ripper with my Pioneer BD160.

JimmyS · Oct 17, 2016

MadFloyd said:
Oppo firmware to rip SACDs?? I'll have to look that one up. I have many SACD rips but I've had to rely on others to do it for me... if I could rip my own I wouldn't care about a transport.

Are you happy with your Rossini from a sonic perspective?

Simple answer, YES. In my system (Magico S3's, Pass XA-100.5's, Pass XP20, Kubala Emotion IC's/SC) I no longer prefer Vinyl playback (Clear Audio Ovation, Benz LPS, ARC Ref 2SE) over digital, I just listen to music in whatever format.

I'll be in Boston in a couple weeks and plan to stop by Goodwins to see if I can audtion what an external clock for the Rossini brings to the table.

bonzo75 · Oct 17, 2016

microstrip said:
I see. Nice to know your views on digital. Are you wanting to use exotic tubes in the DAC as an "A(analog)"RC?

The tubes are just play. I would like to resist a move to analog for practical reasons, and keep myself interested by playing with tubes. They are easy buy sell anyway,and help me optimize the digital. If I could, I would trade in my Lampi for a good analog set up in a flash, and then get an oppo in. I started on the wrong path, and (imo) have the best digital, but it is no (well set up) analog.

And yes, I have experimented with the Lampi through a Trinnov, and it was fine. I will one day get Acourate or some s/w that will allow me to optionally turn on DRC

Lee · Oct 17, 2016

caesar said:
Some guys are very sensitive to DSD coloration (and thus avoid all DSD DACs like the plague), and others are not...

Others ask, "What coloration?"

dCS vs Esoteric

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor

Member Sponsor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Similar threads