dCS vs Esoteric

jfrech

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...but the impression one gets is the buzz from very positive dcs voices have all been coming from systems upsampling the music to DSD, which adds harmonic richness (and a very fake lifelessness to the music, to some listeners) at the expense of snappiness and PRAT to the music that originated in PCM. So, please mind the settings!...

Huh ?!? As a Vivaldi owner...I'd have to seriously disagree with the points you're trying to make...
 

jfrech

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It bothers me that it doesn't support SACD (since I have a fair number of them) but it's not a total deal breaker.

I went from a Esoteric DV50S to a dCS Puccinni/U clock years ago and have never looked back. That's not a fair comparison however of today's offerings...

I do believe the root cause on the Rossini not playing back SACD's is Esoteric themselves. Gibson, the new owners, decided to no longer sell the OEM transports to dCS and others...I am finding the DSDx2 capability of the Rossini and Vivaldi 2.0 (via NAS) to finally make the transport less relevant. Just depends on how much music you may have to leave behind.

Another option is to find a used Scarlatti or Paganini Transport...to feed the Rossini DAC.
 

caesar

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Huh ?!? As a Vivaldi owner...I'd have to seriously disagree with the points you're trying to make...

Some guys are very sensitive to DSD coloration (and thus avoid all DSD DACs like the plague), and others are not...
 

caesar

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I wouldn't say that. Our own Bruce B about whom no one would dare utter the words "no clue" thinks also that clock can't bring much to the reproduction... Marketing is a powerful force.. It runs the world; High End audiophiles in particular are not immune from it. I haven't heard the NADAC nor the Vivaldi. I would say however that a friend who's heard both think the NADAC is as good as it gets ... Then again it is a matter of taste at these elevated levels and what one likes isn't debatable.

I was talking about Nadac's designers. I don't think they are audiophiles. Not sure what Bruce's experience has been, but what like to read about it. If you have a link, please share. Also, to be clear, I am talking about re-clocking PCM CDs. I think Bruce is really into DSD, so this may explain the disconnect. (Or not.)

I agree that the Nadac can be game over digital in the right system with enough midbass oomph - no need to spend $100K+ on dcs or esoteric.
 

jfrech

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Some guys are very sensitive to DSD coloration (and thus avoid all DSD DACs like the plague), and others are not...

It's a pretty derogatory and frankly offensive way to put it-just sayin-and my opinion.

PCM and DSD both have good and not so good qualities (as does digital in general and every recording/playback format out there). It's ok to prefer DSD or DXD. I can play both natively...and the filters used can significantly alter ones opinion.

DSD is more rich to my ears...and more interesting to listen to. Unraveling things better. DXD is more incisive. This is also dependent on the source material and how it's recorded/mastered.

I just don't agree with your assertions.
 

microstrip

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Some guys are very sensitive to DSD coloration (and thus avoid all DSD DACs like the plague), and others are not...

IMHO you (they...) are addressing the implementations, not the format itself.
 

jfrech

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caesar

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Gentlemen, not trying to be disrespectful, but everything in audio has a coloration or sonic signature that jives with us or gets on our nerves...

I may be experientially impoverished, but I prefer good, old pcm for stuff originating in PCM. Never heard anything that went from PCM to dsd that really, consistently moves me
 

jfrech

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Gentlemen, not trying to be disrespectful, but everything in audio has a coloration or sonic signature that jives with us or gets on our nerves...

I may be experientially impoverished, but I prefer good, old pcm for stuff originating in PCM. Never heard anything that went from PCM to dsd that really, consistently moves me

Everything does. Agree with you on that point ! Good old pcm sounds pretty nice on the current dCS lineup-even upsampled to dsd... my opinion anyway ... if you're ever close to Austin, tx let me know. Happy to host you ...
 

MadFloyd

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I just don't understand what that means to hear artifacts with the NADAC

The artifacts I hear are similar to sibilence, creating an edginess to vocals, but not just on the 's' consonant.
 

microstrip

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The artifacts I hear are similar to sibilence, creating an edginess to vocals, but not just on the 's' consonant.

If it is what I am thinking some friends and me call it "digitalitis" :). It is horrible, making music very tiresome, like a shout if listened loud, and destroying all the rhythm of music. Most people will disagree with me, saying bits are just bits, but I have often associated it with music servers and virtual music served by generic pc's via USB.

High resolution audio systems enhance it.
 

MadFloyd

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If it is what I am thinking some friends and me call it "digitalitis" :). It is horrible, making music very tiresome, like a shout if listened loud, and destroying all the rhythm of music. Most people will disagree with me, saying bits are just bits, but I have often associated it with music servers and virtual music served by generic pc's via USB.

High resolution audio systems enhance it.

Yup, digitalitis is a good word. So, do you hear it with your Vivaldi?
 

microstrip

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Yup, digitalitis is a good word. So, do you hear it with your Vivaldi?

Not at all with the Vivaldi or Metronome in my system, after the burn-in phase. A lot of times with the current Devialet upstairs... I was promised that the new Pro versions are improved in this aspect, I will send mine for upgrading soon - unless a good friend wants to buy it before! ;)

Power and signal cables play a significant role in this aspect - with the wrong cables I can make any digital "shout" in my system, the Soundlab's are particularly sensitive to it. The Aida's or the Alexia's were more forgiving.
 

Keith_W

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But a lot of issues with the nadac get rectified with an outboard clock.

I am curious which outboard clock you have used with the NADAC?

But Nadac can be outstanding - in the right system, Nadac + clock is game over digital. In a lot of respects, as good as digital can get.

You think? :) Here is a picture of my NADAC MC-8:

20160908_144341.jpg

And just for fun, here is a picture of the inside of a Bricasti M1 Dual Mono, which sells for half the price:

4.jpg

Here are a few things to note:

- NADAC has a switch mode power supply that powers everything. The Bricasti has three toroidal transformers.

- The digital and analog section in the NADAC are on the same board. On the Bricasti, they are on separate boards with separate power supplies.

- The NADAC uses two Sabre ESS 9008S chips. Not the 9018S. Not the new 9028/9038. The reason - they believe that these chips sound better than the newer Sabre chips. Also, note that this 8 channel DAC (which costs $1000 more than the two channel DAC) - has TWO DAC chips. Not 8. Other DAC's at this price point are not using an off-the-shelf chip but using FPGA's (Playback Designs) or custom discrete designs (DCS, MSB, Lampi)? Even a humble Oppo BDP-105 has the ESS9018S.

- The oscillator crystal is not oven controlled.

I don't deny that the NADAC sounds good. It definitely does. But I think my Playback Designs MPS-5, with the latest firmware upgrades, sounds better. And i'll point out again - that Bricasti DAC, which costs half of the NADAC, has a much more purist design. When we are in NADAC territory, your money can buy you MSB and DCS. Both of these companies have long pedigrees in the audiophile world. With a NADAC, you get an off-the-shelf DAC chip which is a lower end model to what is fitted to an Oppo DVD player.

The last time I made a post like this, I received an email from my Merging distributor. Well, all I am doing is stating facts. It is a fact that they use the 9008S. It is a fact that other DAC's in this price bracket have a more purist design. You can, if you wish, choose to dismiss toroidal power supplies, separate Analog/Digital sections, etc etc as audiophile fluff. You can, if you wish, believe their claims that they chose the Sabre 9008S because it sounds superior to the more expensive chips in the Sabre lineup. But anybody can look at what is inside the DAC, look at what else is on the market, and draw their own conclusions.

If this is "as good as digital can get", I wonder how much better it would be if it was designed like a Bricasti M1.
 

opus112

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If it is what I am thinking some friends and me call it "digitalitis" :). It is horrible, making music very tiresome, like a shout if listened loud, and destroying all the rhythm of music. Most people will disagree with me, saying bits are just bits, but I have often associated it with music servers and virtual music served by generic pc's via USB.

Sounds to me micro you're describing the usual effects of common-mode noise. I've experienced this countless times. USB often sucks because the associated computer's power supply is an aggressive common-mode noise generator. Cable sound is in the main down to how well cables deal with such noise.
 

sbo6

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I've always found DCS to have ultimate finesse vs. Esoteric's ultimate bass weight and better dynamics. My $ would likely be on a K-01 + Cybershaft Clock (saves some $) =~$21K vs. Rossini with it's matching clock = $28K + 8K = $36K. Also, I've heard DCS having quality issues vs. never any problems with Esoteric. Would be interesting for those with both to chime in wrt repairs.So there's that.
 

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