Hi-fi & auditory phenomena

jkeny · Oct 14, 2016

I know a lot is talked about loss of HF perception as we age but personally I haven't noted this being detrimental to my enjoyment of music. I note the same in others so I take this drop off in HF perception as not of much real importance overall.

What I have noticed however is another age-related auditory issue - a greater difficulty in following conversations in noisy environments (pubs, crowded rooms, etc). This is a known phenomena often attributed to hearing loss but I believe that there is also an underlying mechanism at play - ASA - yes, auditory scene analysis again

ASA is the brain's facility to analyse the mix of vibrations that impinge on our eardrums into an auditory scene full of vibration emitting objects which we can follow through time.

Now how this relates to this hobby? I have noticed over recent years that playback soundstage has become more prominent in my listening requirements. I believe this is related to the above issue of a greater difficulty in separating out individual streams (conversations) in the soundscape. So I have less strain listening to playback that has a lower sound floor - it differentiates into sound streams & layers & as a result makes much more sense.

What is at play here, I believe is the ability to perceive low level detail. I believe that the cues which are important to ASA in forming a realistic auditory scene reside in this low level detail or said another way - we are more convinced of the solidity the scene when these low level details are perceived & are correct. in the same way, I don't believe this is just an age related issue - ASA is of importance at all ages but it just happens that it's only in the last 10 years or so that my systems have begun to reach this level of replay which also maybe coincides with the above understandings & observations.

Anybody else resonate with this?

Al M. · Oct 14, 2016

jkeny said:
I know a lot is talked about loss of HF perception as we age but personally I haven't noted this being detrimental to my enjoyment of music. I note the same in others so I take this drop off in HF perception as not of much real importance overall.

What I have noticed however is another age-related auditory issue - a greater difficulty in following conversations in noisy environments (pubs, crowded rooms, etc). This is a known phenomena often attributed to hearing loss but I believe that there is also an underlying mechanism at play - ASA - yes, auditory scene analysis again ASA is the brain's facility to analyse the mix of vibrations that impinge on our eardrums into an auditory scene full of vibration emitting objects which we can follow through time.

Now how this relates to this hobby? I have noticed over recent years that playback soundstage has become more prominent in my listening requirements. I believe this is related to the above issue of a greater difficulty in separating out individual streams (conversations) in the soundscape. So I have less strain listening to playback that has a lower sound floor - it differentiates into sound streams & layers & as a result makes much more sense.

What is at play here, I believe is the ability to perceive low level detail. I believe that the cues which are important to ASA in forming a realistic auditory scene reside in this low level detail or said another way - we are more convinced of the solidity the scene when these low level details are perceived & are correct. in the same way, I don't believe this is just an age related issue - ASA is of importance at all ages but it just happens that it's only in the last 10 years or so that my systems have begun to reach this level of replay which also maybe coincides with the above understandings & observations.

Anybody else resonate with this?

Form early age I always had more difficulty than others in following conversations in noisy environments, a brain facility as you say. I therefore don't think this is necessarily related to aging, even though for some it may be. My hearing, while not perfect, seems to be quite fine; I still can hear the TV rather well at low volume, as I could when I was younger.

I also do like lower noise floor and good spatial/timbral separation of instruments, as it allows you to listen deeper into the music. Yet I still also can distinguish strands in complex music to a good amount even from my cheap car stereo, while obviously I cannot catch all those details that I could with my system at home. Despite my difficulty in following conversations in noisy environments, I seem to have quite a good ear for complex music as the opinion of others suggests.

treitz3 · Oct 14, 2016

What? I can't hear you due to my 7 year old son playing and talking loudly with his friend in the living room.

Yes, it is at this point that my hearing becomes "iffy".

Now, sit me down at the listening position and put on a great album? All of a sudden, the so called "golden ears" come into fruition.

Great topic.

Tom

jkeny · Oct 14, 2016

Thanks Al, for relating your experience.

Yes, ASA is the brain's auditory analysis of the signals which, by implication is also dependent on the quality/clarity of the cues in the signal that it uses for this analysis. So if the physical hearing mechanism begins to miss capturing some of those cues or if the playback system masks these cues, then we strain to make full sense of what we are hearing.

In the same way as a conversation that we can clearly hear makes sense & snaps into place, I find this can happen with playback systems but it isn't just a once off, it seems that a certain amount/quality/level of these cues are necessary before it goes beyond a system that plays back the notes in the right order to one that begins to convey something more than this.

I believe that when this is first experienced with a playback system, it often results in an effusive report & yet it is perhaps only due to a small change in currently measurable differences (if even any difference is currently measurable). And my experience so far has shown me that the believability of the playback illusion can continue to increase & provide more realism

All of which leads me to believe that this phenomena is based on low level auditory cues & why I purposely used "sound floor" instead of "noise floor" as I believe they mean very different things but I'm only able to use a phone for these posts so I can't spell it out at the moment.

Al M. · Oct 14, 2016

jkeny said:
Thanks Al, for relating your experience.

Yes, ASA is the brain's auditory analysis of the signals which, by implication is also dependent on the quality/clarity of the cues in the signal that it uses for this analysis. So if the physical hearing mechanism begins to miss capturing some of those cues or if the playback system masks these cues, then we strain to make full sense of what we are hearing.

In the same way as a conversation that we can clearly hear makes sense & snaps into place, I find this can happen with playback systems but it isn't just a once off, it seems that a certain amount/quality/level of these cues are necessary before it goes beyond a system that plays back the notes in the right order to one that begins to convey something more than this.

I believe that when this is first experienced with a playback system, it often results in an effusive report & yet it is perhaps only due to a small change in currently measurable differences (if even any difference is currently measurable). And my experience so far has shown me that the believability of the playback illusion can continue to increase & provide more realism

All of which leads me to believe that this phenomena is based on low level auditory cues & why I purposely used "sound floor" instead of "noise floor" as I believe they mean very different things but I'm only able to use a phone for these posts so I can't spell it out at the moment.

I agree, low level auditory cues would hardly be measurable on top of the main musical signal, but they can make all the difference. When I got BorderPatrol external power supplies for my tube amps, the noise floor (or sound floor) dropped significantly, and for the first time subtle spatial clues came through.

The entire musical presentation and experience often changed dramatically due to these low-level signals. One example: I have a CD of works for a capella choir by British contemporary composer Maxwell Davies that I had always admired not just for the music, but also for its natural timbres. Yet when I listened to it with the power supply upgrade, I was completely floored. For the very first time the choir was put into a real, enormously large acoustic space, and voices deliciously arose from there, far receded from my speakers, instead of sounding upfront as before.

With the external power supplies added, spatial/timbral separation of instruments also improved to a great degree.

jkeny · Oct 14, 2016

I asked the question on the mono thread as to whether soundstage & layering was perceived as I suspect it is & will try to test this myself. I had no reply except from fas42 who replied outside of WBF confirming what I thought.

jkeny · Oct 15, 2016

Yes, All, that's exactly it - soundstage, layering, realism/believability all take a jump in quality & music now holds one's attention - even mp3 has a new life to it which is odd because that codec is based on masking such low level detail. I'm not saying that mp3 provides the soundstage depth & layering that non lost music provides but most of the music in mp3 I've heard it's pop & this is manufactured soundstage anyway.

Another example of ASA in action I believe it's how with a good replay system pops & clicks on vinyl don't largely impinge our listening - why? - because they are perceived in another layer, not part of the music & easier to ignore.

In the same way as the room (within reason) is also perceived as separate to the music & easy to ignore.

jkeny · Oct 15, 2016

Forgive some wrong word in these posts - I don't always pick up the phone's predictive guesses.

I also can't edit the post after it is made as it always deletes the post.

jkeny · Oct 15, 2016

Here's an interesting letter from Steve Kaiser of B & K components - it's all about distortion of ultra low level signals
http://www.audiodiy.org/viewtopic.php?t=735

Kal Rubinson · Oct 15, 2016

jkeny said:
In the same way as the room (within reason) is also perceived as separate to the music & easy to ignore.

And that effect is even more pronounced with multichannel.

Fiddle Faddle · Oct 15, 2016

jkeny said:
What I have noticed however is another age-related auditory issue - a greater difficulty in following conversations in noisy environments (pubs, crowded rooms, etc). This is a known phenomena often attributed to hearing loss but I believe that there is also an underlying mechanism at play - ASA - yes, auditory scene analysis again ASA is the brain's facility to analyse the mix of vibrations that impinge on our eardrums into an auditory scene full of vibration emitting objects which we can follow through time.

Me too but I simply accept it as the result of hearing loss and it's associated problems such as recruitment. And nothing else apart from that. It not only explains the difficultly hearing in environments with broadband random background noise but also my need to decrease dynamic range as alluded to in my other thread.

http://www.nchearingloss.org/recruit.htm

And this is what worries me for later in life and something we should all potentially be concerned about as we get into old age.

http://hearinglosshelp.com/blog/recruitment-from-hearing-loss-explained/

jkeny · Oct 15, 2016

Thanks FF, I hadn't heard of recruitment before & can't say I've noticed it in myself. I hope yours is a mild case & not progressive?

Fiddle Faddle · Oct 15, 2016

jkeny said:
Thanks FF, I hadn't heard of recruitment before & can't say I've noticed it in myself. I hope yours is a mild case & not progressive?

Mine is very mild thankfully. It has been pretty consistent for a decade now. But the problem when it comes to music is that with recruitment, you literally begin to lose your tolerance of extreme dynamic range which makes classical music more and more difficult to listen to (but does not really impact other genres where the dynamic range is inherently small unless the recruitment problem is significant). Couple that with natural age-related hearing loss and if people with recruitment are not careful, they can end up in a situation of never being able to find a satisfying - or even a workable - listening volume.

Even with my mild problem I was all but contemplating giving up on large scale classical and listening only to chamber music and popular music - until I found an excellent compresser / limiter.

jkeny · Oct 15, 2016

Glad yours is mild but something related to this which I have noticed with a lot of digital systems is a tendency for the playback to lose fluidity & ramp up in perceived loudness/attack when music gets complex or loud. I don't believe this is recruitment, however as with other digital playback if the same track, it doesn't happen.

This tends to differentiate SD from multi bit DACs

Fiddle Faddle · Oct 15, 2016

That could also have something to do with the natural compression of analogue (i.e tape saturation) versus digital systems. Although even when not saturating an analogue tape, it still tends to slightly soften up in terms of transients, attack and an ultimate perception loudness compared to digital.

jkeny · Oct 15, 2016

I'm not talking about differences between analogue & digital but rather some digital having a tendency to ramp up in perceived loudness in complex/loud passages whereas other digital systems having a fluidity - a more natural presentation. Don't think compression is behind this phenomena - rather some advance of distortion?

Fiddle Faddle said:
That could also have something to do with the natural compression of analogue (i.e tape saturation) versus digital systems. Although even when not saturating an analogue tape, it still tends to slightly soften up in terms of transients, attack and an ultimate perception loudness compared to digital.

Fiddle Faddle · Oct 15, 2016

jkeny said:
I'm not talking about differences between analogue & digital but rather some digital having a tendency to ramp up in perceived loudness in complex/loud passages whereas other digital systems having a fluidity - a more natural presentation. Don't think compression is behind this phenomena - rather some advance of distortion?

If we are only talking digital I tend to notice this more on DACs that have upsampling before the DAC section (as opposed to the ubiquitous oversampling within the DAC section).

Air Between The Notes · Oct 15, 2016

I think also as we age we have less energy to give & therefore become more selective on where it is spent or how much of what we as individuals have developed into are willing to put up with. So sitting & listening intently with the skills learned in life (that accumulated knowledge/muscle memory/pathways beaten down in our brains to become superhighways) of how to direct the energies spent in our bodies vs how much fuel is left in the tank at the end of a day or start of a day for that matter? We sit down & are also able to see the bigger picture in life now rather than not being able to see the trees for the forest. That puts us in a place to be more focused on what is before us on a road well traveled, ok with being comfortable with not being all we can be or were & not knocked off course as easily, with the end result being seeing more...unless the dumb kids crank up the garbage on the computer, the washing machine starts as the trash compactor grinds with the neighbour's weed eater whirring & dumping in smoke through the basement window that you took a chance on leaving open for the fresh air on a quite evening as you sat down with your drink & because your depth of vision is all screwed up now? You didn't get it set square on the coaster & spilt allover causing your blood pressure to skyrocket that you can't hear anything for the ringing in your ears!

NorthStar · Oct 15, 2016

Our hearing as we get older might get closer to the toilet bowl but our music taste become more sophistical and libertine; in ways of closeness to free wisdom.

Hi-fi & auditory phenomena

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