TAS review Berning 211/845 amplifier

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,444
13,474
2,710
London
You are lucky people - as far as I know UK customs are very flexible with the CE electrical certification - they have always been training for the BREXIT ... :)

You can buy UK goods cheap now
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
Robert Hartley about the The Berning 211/845 60W amplifier: I won’t mince words: The Berning 211/845 is the most beautiful sounding amplifier I’ve ever heard.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/?products=3048

Microstrip, thanks for the link.

We can't ignore the context: Let's not forget that for the better part of the last decade Harley has been telling us how Soulution/ Constellation is the best there is. Same pattern as when Valin moved from Magico Q5 to the more euphonic Raidho after spending a long time with that speaker.
 

Kcin

VIP/Donor
Mar 27, 2016
655
826
275
Canada
Berning and his products are phenomenal. He is a true innovator within this hobby that can go quite askew with pseudo-science. I've met and spoken to him at a few shows. He's quite humble and softs spoken.

I have owned one of his ZH-270's for about 10 years - I sold it last year to make some room for my direct drive amps for the Beveridge electrostatics. The 270 and all the Quadrature derivatives do bass like no other tube amp you have heard. Hartley describes the nature of Berning's amp well in his article. I have heard the 211/845 but not in my system.

Unfortunately, Berning went to intermediary distribution which turned end user cost about 2.5x what it was. The distributor and dealer get their princely cut. At $75K I wouldn't do it. At half of that it would be "reasonable".

I prefer the 211... not the 845 but then I roll Wyetech 211 into the system now and then and that's a beast so I'm biased to the 211. The Berning is a winner if your speakers and your budget manages it.
 

Attachments

  • TopazHiRes1.jpg
    TopazHiRes1.jpg
    485.4 KB · Views: 246

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
Good to see you posting, Frantz. I hope all is well with you and your family after the hurricane.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
Gentlemen, does anyone understand how the ZOTL is different than a regular OTL, such as the fabulous Atma-sphere?
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
Harley's review was very well done I thought.

I agree it is some of Harley's better work, but would have been much better if he compared it to similar products. He ends up using Valin's quote pertaining to VAC. Without understanding relative differences between components, one can then generalize these conclusions to all tube amps...
 

Jazzhead

VIP/Donor
Aug 26, 2012
1,466
108
985
Microstrip, thanks for the link.

We can't ignore the context: Let's not forget that for the better part of the last decade Harley has been telling us how Soulution/ Constellation is the best there is. Same pattern as when Valin moved from Magico Q5 to the more euphonic Raidho after spending a long time with that speaker.

Something better more beautiful comes along . If you sampled as many wares as he does , similar proclamations would likely arise .
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
Something better more beautiful comes along . If you sampled as many wares as he does , similar proclamations would likely arise .

I wish you were right. But my point is that he hasn't. It's a boomerang reaction, unfortunately, to cold SS gear he has been listening to for a while.

I have heard several Berning models and they are very good. But instead of comparing to something meaningful to help confused audiophiles make sense of this market space, he ends up quoting his buddy Valin. How helpful is that for the fan or potential consumer? What about Lamm,Kondo, Shindo, Cat, Vac, atmosphere.....?

Too bad we live in a culture where reviewers disrespect us.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Gentlemen, does anyone understand how the ZOTL is different than a regular OTL, such as the fabulous Atma-sphere?

The Atmasphere is a DC coupled amplifier going through all audio bandwidth - tubes directly connected to the speakers. The ZOTL is coupled through transformers, that work outside the audio bandwidth. It uses tubes, no output transformer working in the audio band, but is not like the conventional OTLs. We have seen regularly bloody fights on this subject in audio forums in the early 2000's and perhaps even before, let us hope they do not start in WBF!
 

YashN

New Member
Jun 28, 2015
951
5
0
Canada
I agree it is some of Harley's better work, but would have been much better if he compared it to similar products. He ends up using Valin's quote pertaining to VAC. Without understanding relative differences between components, one can then generalize these conclusions to all tube amps...

I liked the fact that he brings attention to the low-register response and how this pertains to some passages of classical, meaning that most people wouldn't find it an issue at all.
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
I have to disagree on this one. I have no significant experience with the 458, but I own the 108 and have owned the 8550 and the old 18NS. IMHO some (and much more than just a few) tube amplifiers are equal or even better than these two models in recreating a large real 3D image with true ultra low level true cues, with large orchestras and complex music, with plenty of high frequency extension. IMHO we must avoid generalizations using words such as "most" when comparing to our preferred brands.

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree then :)
And if it makes it more reasonable to you all, I can change that to "Most good tube amps I've heard"... That's about as non-generic I can get, without mentioning specific brands... And of course, it is *my* perception of things, both the darTZeels as most of the tube amps I've heard.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,471
11,368
4,410
Having 'the best' of both (i.e. solid state and tube) worlds, that is audio nirvana. Do I understand you correctly you are aiming at top solid state and tube amplification to combine with one set of loudspeakers?

no. I would not attempt to combine solid state and tube. and my move from Tenor OTL's to the darTZeel 108 was that I saw it as best of both worlds. still do even more so with the 458's.

however; tube amps do interest me and I'd love to have a set of tube amps on hand for the occasional flirtation. I tried that with the Found Music 2a3 DHT monos on my MM3's 4 years ago but 2-3 watts could not get the job done. my current speakers are an easy enough load and get helped with active bass and the coherence of mimicking bass amps, so a broad spectrum of tube amps can be a fit....anything north of 20 watts could work on the MM7's.

unfortunately with my investment in the 458's I cannot rationalize 'uber' costing tube amps sitting there gathering dust. it may never happen, but it could happen.
 

vindixon

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2012
12
6
910
Radnor, Pa
www.vincentdixon.com
I've just recently got the Berning Pre One, mainly for its phono stage. I was using a Halcro DM10 which has a very good phono stage but preferred digital straight from dCS Vivaldi. Now I'm also listening to digital with the PreOne.
I haven't compared the pre to a lot at home but I'm currently at RMAF and I love the sound of the Nagra room on the 10th floor. Room 1030.
 

YashN

New Member
Jun 28, 2015
951
5
0
Canada
The Berning ZOTL amplifiers are not simple circuits and the signal path is not simple! They are very complex, using RF conversion transformers to avoid the need for a large output transformer. It is why some people object to call them OTLs. Please see the patent that generically describes the circuit https://www.google.com/patents/US5612646.

And yes, they were designed by a genius ...

Looks less complex to me that just the output portion of this gear after the DAC here:

path11.jpg

Each Opamp itself has an equivalent schematics of transistor + other parts count which amount to around 40...

I know how he designed them - was reading about his technologies a few years ago while researching tube amp topologies.

One question has been bugging me lately: I also saw another builder use high-frequency components to power tube amps (something like a SMPS).

Does anyone know if RFI/EMI is an issue for Tube amps at all?
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,988
978
Switzerland
more the preference for the style in which they do it and personal priorities. I certainly appreciate the ultra 3D of the best tube amps, but also the more top to bottom rendering of uber solid state.

there is room for both at the top of the heap.

at some point I will have a set of tube amps to be able to shift to answer the siren call of that perspective. my investment in the other way has limited my choice for that.

You should try a big Ayon, Aries Cerat, some NAT, or big KR SET then because they tend to get a big dose of both that I haven't heard with other SETs or push pull tubes. Not to mention they all have bone crunching bass but with texture I have never heard from any SS amp. IME, they deliver "you are there" for larger works where hall space "reconstruction " is important and "they are here" palpability of the better (if not the best) small SETs.

FWIW, Bernings technology is not true OTL. He is doing some kind of high frequency carrier transformation that allows for special small transformers but seems to avoid saturation issues.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,988
978
Switzerland
Berning and his products are phenomenal. He is a true innovator within this hobby that can go quite askew with pseudo-science. I've met and spoken to him at a few shows. He's quite humble and softs spoken.

I have owned one of his ZH-270's for about 10 years - I sold it last year to make some room for my direct drive amps for the Beveridge electrostatics. The 270 and all the Quadrature derivatives do bass like no other tube amp you have heard. Hartley describes the nature of Berning's amp well in his article. I have heard the 211/845 but not in my system.

Unfortunately, Berning went to intermediary distribution which turned end user cost about 2.5x what it was. The distributor and dealer get their princely cut. At $75K I wouldn't do it. At half of that it would be "reasonable".

I prefer the 211... not the 845 but then I roll Wyetech 211 into the system now and then and that's a beast so I'm biased to the 211. The Berning is a winner if your speakers and your budget manages it.


Those Wyetechs are very nicely made products! I reviewed the Wyetech Pearl preamp about 11 years ago and it was a very nice product.

Does yours use the Bartolucci output transformers? I know in the beginning Wyetech was using Audio Note output iron. Apparently, Wyetech amps do not sound particularly tubey but are very transparent and open with great bass.
 

Kcin

VIP/Donor
Mar 27, 2016
655
826
275
Canada
Those Wyetechs are very nicely made products! I reviewed the Wyetech Pearl preamp about 11 years ago and it was a very nice product.

Does yours use the Bartolucci output transformers? I know in the beginning Wyetech was using Audio Note output iron. Apparently, Wyetech amps do not sound particularly tubey but are very transparent and open with great bass.


Hello,

Yes, the Wyetech does fly under the radar. I believe if they used a traditional dealer/distribution channel they would be 2-3x price. Mine is the latest with the Bartlucci transformers. I can't hear the difference between the two as I had the original one on loan for some time before purchasing. This model is all power supply at over 45kg or about 110lbs.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,988
978
Switzerland
Hello,

Yes, the Wyetech does fly under the radar. I believe if they used a traditional dealer/distribution channel they would be 2-3x price. Mine is the latest with the Bartlucci transformers. I can't hear the difference between the two as I had the original one on loan for some time before purchasing. This model is all power supply at over 45kg or about 110lbs.

Interesting. I have the Ayon Crossfire III and it is also 45Kg of mostly power supply (although the output transformers are also quite large). The Aries Cerat Diana, which I still have for review, is tipping the scales at 110Kg though...now that is a heavy amp!
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Interesting. I have the Ayon Crossfire III and it is also 45Kg of mostly power supply (although the output transformers are also quite large). The Aries Cerat Diana, which I still have for review, is tipping the scales at 110Kg though...now that is a heavy amp!

Looking forward to your impressions of the Aries Cerat amp. When (and where) do you expect to be publishing/releasing your review? Thanks!!
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing