What is the most musical, fast and accurate subwoofer you have heard?

Ron Resnick

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Jan 24, 2015
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Thank you, LL21!

I have been discussing the order on my equipment upgrades thread.
 

GaryProtein

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SVS just introduced a new 16" pair of subs, one sealed and one ported model. Big DSP engine, apparently. Wonder how they'll sound?

Lee

I got an email from them today.

The new 16" subs look pretty impressive and are very reasonably priced. Their flagship model woofer has (by my calculations from their specs) about 750 cubic inches of displacement in its full excursion.

We'll have to wait and see how they sound.
 

caesar

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Gentlemen, interesting thread.

I always thought that bass was felt, not heard. How does one judge if a subwoofer is "musical"?
 

NorthStar

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"Listen for the depth and fullness of the bass. A speaker with good bass response conveys much of the power, weight and impact of real, live music. Even though bass should be strong and powerful, it should always sound clean and articulate, never “thuddy,” “boomy,” or like it’s simply one indistinct bass note repeating itself (known as “one-note” syndrome). A good thing to listen for is whether you can follow the bass line in the music in spite of the busyness of all the instruments and vocals taking place on top of it. An upright acoustic bass in a jazz quartet is a good test (this is known as a walking bassline, because the repeating bass notes sound like someone is taking a stroll down the street). If you can follow the bass notes clearly, and they are strong and impactful, that’s a very good sign. Many speakers fall down on this. This test really separates the contenders from the pretenders.

Another great test is a well-recorded pipe organ. Pipe organs can get as low as 16 Hz and the low C in the opening seconds of the “2001” theme is 32 Hz. This is lower than the vast majority of so-called “full range” speakers can play on their own without the aid of a subwoofer. The lowest note on a 4 string electric bass, which is the lowest musical note in most popular music, is low E at 42Hz and Bo at 30Hz on a 5 string bass. Even 42 Hz is a tough test for an all-in-one full-range speaker. What we often think of as bass when we hear the repeating bass lines in rock music or hip-hop is really in the 50-60 Hz range. A good full-range speaker should have no problem with that. Again, listen for clarity and distinct notes, not just a dull thud.

Pipe Organ

With fundamental notes reaching down to 16Hz, pipe organ music can be a grueling test of bass extension.

What a speaker doesn’t do when playing bass is just as important as what it does do. If a note (like low C at 32 Hz) is well below the speaker’s usable frequency range, a well-designed, well-behaved speaker will not produce objectionable audible distortion or emit extraneous mechanical noises trying to reproduce that note. A vented speaker should not produce port chuffing or a distracting whooshing sound. The speaker’s woofer should not produce a clicking or thwacking noise as it runs out of excursion or its voice coil bottoms against the backplate. Good speakers simply reproduce the bass they’re capable of reproducing, and they should pretty much ignore the bass they can’t deliver without any distracting audible distress or other drama."


by Steve Feinstein — April 28, 2014

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The Neuroscience of Bass: New Study Explains Why Bass Instruments Are Fundamental to Music
In Music, Neuroscience, Science| October 23rd, 2015

"At the lower range of hearing, it’s said humans can hear sound down to about 20 Hz, beneath which we encounter a murky sonic realm called “infrasound,” the world of elephant and mole hearing. But while we may not hear those lowest frequencies, we feel them in our bodies, as we do many sounds in the lower frequency ranges—those that tend to disappear when pumped through tinny earbuds or shopping mall speakers. Since bass sounds don’t reach our ears with the same excited energy as the high frequency sounds of, say, trumpets or wailing guitars, we’ve tended to dismiss the instruments—and players—who hold down the low end (know any famous tuba players?).

In most popular music, bass players don’t get nearly enough credit—even when the bass provides a song’s essential hook. As Led Zeppelin’s John Paul Jones joked at his Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony in 1995, “thank you to my friends for remembering my phone number.” And yet, writes Tom Barnes at Mic, “there’s scientific proof that bassists are actually one of the most vital members of any band…. It’s time we started treating bassists with the respect they deserve.” Research into the critical importance of low frequency sound explains why bass instruments mostly play rhythm parts and leave the fancy melodic noodling to instruments in the upper range. The phenomenon is not specific to rock, funk, jazz, dance, or hip hop. “Music in diverse cultures is composed this way,” says psychologist Laurel Trainor, director of the McMaster University Institute for Music and the Mind, “from classical East Indian music to Gamelan music of Java and Bali, suggesting an innate origin.”

Trainor and her colleagues have recently published a study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences suggesting that perceptions of time are much more acute at lower registers, while our ability to distinguish changes in pitch gets much better in the upper ranges, which is why, writes Nature, “saxophonists and lead guitarists often have solos at a squealing register,” and why bassists tend to play fewer notes. (These findings seem consistent with the physics of sound waves.) To reach their conclusions, Trainer and her team “played people high and low pitched notes at the same time.” Participants were hooked up to an electroencephalogram that measured brain activity in response to the sounds. The psychologists “found that the brain was better at detecting when the lower tone occurred 50 MS too soon compared to when the higher tone occurred 50 MS too soon.”

The study’s title perfectly summarizes the team’s findings: “Superior time perception for lower musical pitch explains why bass-ranged instruments lay down musical rhythms.” In other words, “there is a psychological basis,” says Trainor, “for why we create music the way we do. Virtually all people will respond more to the beat when it is carried by lower-pitched instruments.” University of Vienna cognitive scientist Tecumseh Fitch has pronounced Trainor and her co-authors’ study a “plausible hypothesis for why bass parts play such a crucial role in rhythm perception.” He also adds, writes Nature:

For louder, deeper bass notes than those used in these tests, people might also feel the resonance in their bodies, not just hear it in their ears, helping us to keep rhythm. For example, when deaf people dance they might turn up the bass and play it very loud, he says, so that “they can literally ‘feel the beat’ via torso-based resonance.”

Painfully awkward revelers at weddings, on cruise ships, at high school reunions—they just can’t help it. Maybe even this dancing owl can’t help it. Some of us keep time better than others, but most of us feel and respond physically to low-frequency rhythms.

Bass instruments don’t only keep time; they also play a key role in a song’s harmonic and melodic structure. In 1880, an academic music textbook informed its readers that “the bass part… is, in fact, the foundation upon which the melody rests and without which there could be no melody.” As true as this was at the time—-when acoustic precursors to electric bass, synthesizers, and sub-bass amplification provided the low end—it’s just as true now. And bass parts often define the root note of a chord, regardless of what other instruments are doing. As a bass player, notes Sting, “you control the harmony,” as well as anchoring the melody. It seems the importance of rhythm players, though overlooked in much popular appreciation of music, cannot be overstated."


Related Content:

How Drums & Bass Make the Song: Isolated Tracks from Led Zeppelin, Rush, The Pixies, The Beatles to Royal Blood

Hear Isolated Tracks From Five Great Rock Bassists: McCartney, Sting, Deacon, Jones & Lee

The Story of the Bass: New Video Gives Us 500 Years of Music History in 8 Minutes

7 Female Bass Players Who Helped Shape Modern Music: Kim Gordon, Tina Weymouth, Kim Deal & More

The Neuroscience of Drumming: Researchers Discover the Secrets of Drumming & The Human Brain

Josh Jones is a writer and musician based in Durham, NC. Follow him at @jdmagness

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All You Wanted To Know About Subwoofers...But Couldn't Find On The Internet!
Published April 2007
By Hugh Robjohns

"If you really want to craft your bass end, a subwoofer can be indispensable. Here's the low-down...

When I was first getting interested in all things audio, home subwoofers were rather specialist devices that were only of interest to two groups of hi-fi enthusiasts: those who listened to large pipe organ recitals and those who enjoyed reggae! Things have moved on a great deal since those distant days, and today subwoofers are now considered — more for the 'domestic acceptance' factor than any potential sonic benefits — to be an almost standard part of modern hi-fi and studio monitoring systems.

All You Wanted to Know About Subwoofers

It is therefore becoming increasingly common to have smaller 'satellite' left and right speakers, plus one or more subwoofers — a format often referred to as 2.1. The two refers to the main pair of stereo (left and right) speakers, while the '.1' refers to the limited-bandwidth subwoofer. In the same way, a surround sound system is often denoted as 5.1, meaning five main channels plus a subwoofer to handle the low frequency effects channel (LFE).

However, in the case of 5.1 home theatre and surround sound systems, a dedicated subwoofer is required specifically to handle the low frequency effects (LFE) channel. The fact that this sub usually also doubles up, through the use of bass management (explained later), to handle the bass content of all five main channels as well, is just a convenience that allows the use of smaller satellite speakers. Again, I'll come back to this topic later, but I first want to consider 2.1 stereo monitoring arrangements.

The Subwoofer Advantage

When designed and used appropriately, subwoofers can be extremely effective and very convenient. Equally, though, it is very easy to destroy any chance of good monitoring quality with an inappropriate or badly set-up subwoofer — and it is worth stating that I have probably seen nine unsatisfactory installations for every good one!

Poor subwoofer installations usually suffer from too much, or poorly defined, bass. Often there is an obvious 'hole' in the frequency spectrum in the crossover region between the satellite speakers and the subwoofer. It is the 'integration' through this crossover region that really makes or breaks the system as a whole.

The worst kind of subwoofer system will only provide a boomy or monotonal 'woomf' of energy, regardless of the pitch or dynamics of the bass instrument, and the bass might thus appear to be slow or late relative to the main speakers. On the other hand, a well-designed and well-configured system will usually enable more accurate imaging, and have a clearer, more transparent mid-range (thanks to lower distortion and intermodulation levels) and higher overall output than could be achieved with the satellites alone.

From a practical point of view, a satellite and subwoofer combination is much easier to site and to move around. The individual speaker cabinets are more compact and lighter than full-range speakers, and that is often an important consideration — especially in small home studios and for location-recording rigs.

So the aim of this article is to try to explain the hows and whys of choosing and using a subwoofer, in the context of both stereo and surround sound applications.

Concept

The first thing to understand is the basic concept of a subwoofer system. What it is trying to do, and how does it work? Obviously, the fundamental idea is to reproduce low frequencies. In most cases, this is roughly the bottom two octaves, from 20Hz to 80Hz. However, here lies the first major issue we need to take onboard: having a special box that generates low frequencies doesn't guarantee good bass in the listening room — in fact, far from it!

The room's own acoustic properties are of paramount importance. If you put the world's best subwoofer in an acoustically poor room, you'll get very poor bass performance! I have frequently come across monitoring systems where the owner has added a subwoofer in the hope of curing a weak or lumpy bass response, only to discover the situation either doesn't improve or actually gets worse!

If the room has nasty standing-wave problems — and almost all home studios do — it's vital that these acoustical problems are sorted out first, before you spend money or time on a subwoofer.

Bass trapping to control and reduce room standing-waves is a subject that we've covered many times, and is also a popular topic for ongoing discussion and guidance on the Studio Design & Acoustics forum on the SOS web site. You can often improve a room's acoustics dramatically for minimal cost with some basic DIY. And with a treated room you may well find that your existing speakers actually deliver much more and better bass than you thought!

Another useful benefit of a subwoofer is the additional power handling accorded to the system as a whole. The acoustic energy in music is highest at low frequencies and tails off with increasing frequency. So employing a dedicated box to handle much of the power-hungry bass takes that burden from the satellites, with useful benefits in overall power handling and clarity.

One Or Two?

Most stereo systems have two main speakers, yet we have only one subwoofer. Why not two subwoofers as well? In some situations there can be advantages to having two (or more) subwoofers, but in general one is usually sufficient. The reason for this is connected to the fact that, for frequencies below about 700Hz, our sense of hearing measures the phase difference between a sound arriving at each ear, whereas above this frequency it uses mainly level differences. Out of doors, our ability to determine a sound's direction remains quite accurate down to remarkably low frequencies, but this ability collapses when listening indoors. Sources generating low-frequency sounds (below about 100Hz) tend to do so more or less omnidirectionally (the sound wave travels from the source in all directions) because the wavelength of sound is usually larger than the object itself. When a low-frequency sound is generated within an enclosed space, the spherical sound waves created will reflect off the boundary surfaces of the room to arrive back at the ears with a multiplicity of phase variances, due to path-length differences. This confusion of signals makes it impossible for the ear and brain to extract a reliable phase difference, so normal directional acuity fails.

So in theory, since you can't tell where the low frequencies are coming from in a room, one subwoofer will be entirely sufficient. The harmonics of the bass notes will be reproduced by the satellite speakers — which typically start to take over above about 90Hz — and these will provide plenty of directional information through phase and level differences, in the usual way. So, although the bass itself is folded down to mono, the impression of stereo imaging is actually preserved perfectly satisfactorily.

This theory is all well and good, but I often hear people comment that they can hear where a subwoofer is placed in the room. This isn't because of some special acoustic ability on their part, though —rather, it is because of the poor performance of some subwoofers! Designs constructed at a low cost, employing inferior drivers, and those designed to favour efficiency above all else, tend to generate a lot of 'out of band' noise — lots of harmonic distortion and audible port noises, or other artifacts. These occupy the mid-frequency range, which not only makes their position easily detectable, but also obscures and masks the critical mid-range frequencies from the satellite speakers. So adding a cheap subwoofer to quality satellites will actually tend to make the system less rather than more accurate.

A good subwoofer needs to have a very linear driver (which is expensive), an accurate and powerful amplifier (which is expensive), and a well designed and built cabinet (which is... expensive). But cutting corners on any of these aspects is a false economy. I've listened to and used a lot of different subwoofers, and the best are, for all the obvious reasons, produced by the same companies you associate with good monitor speakers. Blue Sky, ATC, Genelec and PMC all produce superb subwoofer systems that integrate extremely well with their intended partnering designs. They are all relatively easy to set up because of the inherent close matching and the appropriate electrical alignment facilities. In my own monitoring system I use the PMC TLE1 subwoofer, both as part of a large 5.1 rig, and to extend the bottom end of the tiny DB1 or nearfield TB2 monitors. Whereas many subs are large cuboid boxes, the TLE1 has the form factor of a computer tower case, which I find both aesthetically and practically appealing.

When buying a sub, the key is to try it in your own listening environment, with your own satellite speakers — particularly if the subwoofer is from a different manufacturer. Some combinations will integrate far better than others, and only a home audition will reveal the success or failure of a particular combination.

Bass Management

Bass management is the process of removing the bass element of the signal fed to each satellite speaker, and routing it instead to one or more subwoofers. In essence this is no different to a normal crossover — it's just that the bass driver happens to be housed in a separate enclosure, and there needs to be some sort of mixing facility included to combine the low-frequency contributions from at least two channels.

In the case of a simple 2.1 stereo system, this bass management or crossover filtering is usually built into the subwoofer, and may be active or passive (most systems are active these days). There are various approaches to wiring, but most route line-level signals from the controller or preamp to the subwoofer first, which filters the signals and outputs them for the satellites. Some systems work the other way around, connecting the signal to the satellite first, and then down to the subwoofer. Systems intended for domestic use often work with speaker-level signals.

For 5.1 surround systems, the bass management is normally performed in the surround sound controller or monitoring controller, rather than in the subwoofer itself. The diagram on the previous page shows such a system. Each of the five main channels goes through a high-pass filter to remove the low-frequency element of the signal, before being passed on to the appropriate amplifier and speaker.

All five channels are also summed and passed through a low-pass filter to remove the mid- and high-frequency content. This signal is then combined with the dedicated LFE signal (which is also low-pass-filtered and boosted in gain, according to the appropriate specifications), and routed to the subwoofer speaker. It is worth bearing in mind that, since each of the five channels in a 5.1 system is a full-bandwidth channel, the subwoofer has to be able to cope with the bass contribution of five full channels, plus whatever might be conveyed on the LFE channel — and that could be a lot of bass! So you shouldn't really expect a very small box to be able to cope if you like listening at serious levels.

Of course, different systems implement bass management in slightly different ways. Some employ active filtering everywhere, whereas some only low-pass-filter the signal feeding the sub, relying on the satellite speakers' natural roll-off for mechanical high-pass filtering. Some will allow the filter turnover frequencies and slopes to be adjusted. Professional units usually do this with meaningful technical parameters, while domestic controllers tend to have simpler 'large' or 'small' speaker descriptions.

The better systems often include some sort of limiting or overload protection for the subwoofer, and some also include facilities for delaying the sound to each speaker, in order to compensate for less than ideal physical positions. Most domestic systems only apply bass management to digital surround inputs (Dolby Digital and DTS sound tracks) but not to discrete multi-channel analogue inputs, and this can present problems if you want to use a cheap domestic surround controller for your surround monitoring. Another common trap is that some DVD players have their own bass-management facilities built in, which means that you need to make sure you don't end up duplicating the processing!

Subwoofer Cabinet Types
While it is relatively easy to generate high levels of bass over very small bandwidths (and that's what most cheap subwoofers tend to do), designing something that can generate a high output over a broad bandwidth, with very low distortion, and remain a sensible size, is pretty tricky. Creating low-frequency sound at studio replay levels requires the movement of a lot of air. This requires a powerful amplifier, a very large bass driver (or several smaller ones), and a lot of diaphragm displacement.

An easy way of achieving high efficiency is to place the driver in what's called a 'band-pass cabinet'. This is essentially a resonant, tuned box, with the driver hidden inside and the sound escaping through one or more ports. You see these quite commonly on cheap home theatre systems and in car 'boom boxes.' Although efficient (for which read loud!), this kind of design always tends to sound boomy, with a one-note kind of response. This is great for film explosions and crashes, but is not much use if you want to hear which notes the bassist is playing, so it is best avoided for serious monitoring duties.

The majority of subwoofers employ some form of 'reflex' design, which combines practical efficiency with useably wide bandwidth, and in convenient sized enclosures. The design principles are thoroughly understood, with the front of the driver radiating directly and its rear contributing via the enclosed cabinet volume through one or more ports. Not all reflex designs are born equal, but most studio-quality subs will be of this kind of design.

A rather less common alternative is the 'closed box' design. The cabinet is sealed, and only the front side of the driver contributes sound to the room. Efficiency is relatively low, and significant demands are placed on the amp and driver (the latter needs to be able to cope with unusually large excursions). However, this approach has considerable benefits in terms of its phase response, timing and distortion. Another close variation on this theme is the 'transmission line' approach, which aims to combine the best elements of both sealed and reflex cabinets. These two types tend to be the most expensive, but also the easiest to align and integrate, and with the most accurate sound.

Don't be fooled by the size of the subwoofer. Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better, or even greater low frequency extension, although it does usually equate with louder; that business about needing to move a lot of air, again.


Alignment

The physical and electrical alignment of a subwoofer is a much misunderstood process, but to get it wrong is to destroy the accuracy of the monitoring system as a whole. Firstly, it is vital that the subwoofer and satellite speakers are all in the same phase as each other — by which I mean their electrical polarity and time alignment. If this is not the case, the crossover region will have an obvious bulge or dip in level. Potentially, there are a lot of sources of phase shifts that can mess up the crossover region. The subwoofer and the satellite speakers have their own mechanical phase responses to take into account, plus the electrical phase characteristics of the crossover filters themselves. There is also the time delay caused by having speakers located at different distances from the listener, and some cabinet designs introduce further acoustic delays, which often vary dramatically with frequency (and in some cases can exceed 40ms — a whole video frame!).

If there is a phase control on your subwoofer, you will find that small phase adjustments can often make surprisingly large differences to the smoothness of the crossover region, especially if the subwoofer and satellites are from different manufacturers.

A lot of the better specified subwoofers include a phase-adjustment facility (either switched or continuously variable), which can help to correct for the mechanical and electrical phase differences between the satellites and the subwoofer. Unfortunately, though, not all designs are equally effective and, more importantly, phase correction is not the same as delay compensation. If the subwoofer is located nearer to, or farther from, the listener than the satellites, some delay compensation will be required to achieve the correct time alignment. Though some bass-management or surround sound monitoring systems incorporate this function, not all do so.

When it comes to placing a subwoofer, there are several things to consider. Although a high-quality subwoofer should not output the higher frequencies that allow its position to be determined by listening, that doesn't mean it can be put down just anywhere. Firstly, the subwoofer's location in the room — especially its proximity to walls — will have a significant effect on its frequency and time-domain responses. In a typical room, there will be a few 'best' places amongst many more that are unacceptable. Secondly, unless delay compensation is available, the sub should ideally be located at the same distance from the listener as the satellite speakers.

It makes sense to place a single subwoofer in front of the listener, rather than behind, and directly facing the listening position too. It should be well away from corners, but you should also avoid placing it at the centre of the room width, in order to minimise excitation of standing waves. The closer the subwoofer is placed to the wall, the greater the bass boost will become. Some models are designed to be placed close to a wall, specifically to benefit from this, but some are not — which means you should always check the manufacturer's recommendations. Often, small changes of distance in relation to a wall can make a big difference in the balance of deep bass, so don't be afraid to experiment.

For the subwoofer to work properly and not be locatable, the crossover between satellite and subwoofer should be set below about 90Hz, and that means the satellite ideally needs to have a decent response down to 70Hz or so. Anything above that starts to intrude into the mid-range and the subwoofer will become locatable. The THX organisation recommends crossing over at 85Hz, and I've found that to be a good starting point in most cases.

Practical Placement

Ideally, a subwoofer and satellite system would be aligned using proper acoustic measuring equipment, but few of us have access to that, or the experience to interpret the results properly. Fortunately, though, you can usually get very good subjective results if you give it some time and patience, and take a logical approach.

Start by placing the subwoofer in the listening position, with approximate filter and volume settings — 85Hz and a volume that seems roughly right. You'll then need to play through a collection of music tracks with well-recorded bass lines in different keys. Alternatively, create your own test track using a sound generator or keyboard, playing each note percussively (not continuously) and with uniform velocity settings. All you then have to do then is crawl around on the floor listening at each potentially practical subwoofer location for which position gives the most consistent and natural bass sound. You'll find some places exhibit some boomy and resonant notes, while others will have obviously weak or missing notes. Hopefully, you will discover one or two places where the sound is well balanced and all bass notes are pretty uniform. Having identified an optimal location, place the subwoofer there and reinstate your listening chair.

Placement of your subwoofer is important. Finding the right place is a matter of getting down on your hands and knees, moving around and listening to some well-recorded bass, with the sub in your normal listening position. When you've found where it sounds best, relocate the sub there.

You can now optimise the subwoofer level and, if provided, the filter turnover frequency and phase/delay. These controls tend to be interactive, so you'll probably have to cycle around their setup before you arrive at the best combination. I usually start with the subwoofer turned right down and then play through a wide collection of music, concentrating on how the mid-range and upper bass notes sound.

Once familiar with what the satellites are doing on their own, I start to increase the level of the subwoofer until all the bass notes are even in level, regardless of pitch. It is very easy to overcook the subwoofer level, and although it may sound impressive, this quickly becomes tiring and leads to bass-light mixes, so take your time and listen critically.

If the deepest and highest bass notes seem right, but it all goes wrong in the crossover region, try adjusting the crossover frequency up or down slightly to find the smoothest transition. If there is a phase control, you will find that small phase adjustments can often make surprisingly large differences here too, especially if the subwoofer is from a different manufacturer from the satellites. Remember, all three controls will interact, so take your time, live with a good setting for a while, and don't be afraid to experiment.

I normally allow at least an hour to set up a subwoofer by ear, and I usually carry on with the fine-tuning for a couple of days afterwards, until I'm happy that I have achieved the best possible performance.

Finally, remember that low frequencies are very hard to contain. Adding a subwoofer will inevitably result in some of your new-found deep bass leaving the listening room. This may well annoy your neighbours, even if they previously tolerated the system without the subwoofer. Generating low bass may also excite room standing-waves that you were not previously aware of, and it may also result in various structures of your building rattling and resonating in ways you've not heard before! The last time I recalibrated the subwoofer in my own 5.1 system at home, my daughter came rushing down to complain that everything on her dressing table was rattling and falling over!"


Published April 2007
 
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treitz3

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Tom, if you want bass reproduction between 10-20Hz, there are two very important requirements:

1. Your sub is able to produce those frequencies in the first place,
2. The intended location of the sub in your listening room does not cause cancellation of these frequencies at the listening position.

Hello, Keith and all others who have responded to this thread. I finally have some time to get back to the discussion. My apologies for the delay. The current subs I have do not fit criteria #1. The VMPS Larger/amp/SMS-1 combo I had would produce it accurately, faithfully and quite loud without breaking a sweat. Criteria #2 is always a fail at the house. Not enough room. Truth be told, I know my limitations with regards to room restraints. I am building my system to perform in any given large room as it is featured at audio events with changing room acoustics and 3D spaces. I can deal with the restraints at home for now. Eventually, the shop out back (separate building on the property) will house the rig. The size of that will be most likely either 14 or 19'x22'. The size will be determined by what will allow the system to perform the best. I plan on 1-2' bull nose corners on the vertical walls and I am very seriously considering the Cardas' Golden Trapagon as well. All of this will be in a brick building on a concrete slab. I can go bigger if I chose to almost double the space but I do enjoy my shop as it keeps various things safe from the elements.

Ultimately, the trapagon shaped 14 or 19'x22' will be the final destination for the rig's home. Perhaps I should be designing the system for this but I want to have fun along the way, if you know what I mean. ;)

You have only asked one half of the question. The second question is just as important as the first. No point buying a monster sub that makes 10Hz, if this frequency is cancelled at the listening position.

It may be possible to predict the behaviour of the sub from a room diagram, but you would have to ask an expert to do it. For me, I would borrow a sub which is known to be capable of 10-15Hz reproduction, and place it at the listening position. I would then go around the room with a microphone and perform frequency sweeps to find the optimal position of the sub.
As mentioned, the rig isn't permanent in its current room. This would be a good scenario to consider in the final destination. For that, perhaps a more professional approach towards this is warranted. In the meantime, this good ol' boy just wants to have fun, regardless if it's in it's current room or the rooms in which the system is featured in.

By the way - your question is "what is the most musical, fast, and accurate subwoofer". I should point out that the word "musical" is subjective, and the word "fast" does not apply to subwoofers. The only term that has a specific meaning is "accurate".

The reason I point this out is because "musicality" means different things to different people. Some might like the "warmness" of a REL subwoofer, or the punch of a ported sub. Some might like the "dryness" of a servo controlled subwoofer. For me personally I prefer the notes to start and stop when they are supposed to start and stop, with no additional overhang from the subwoofers (because the room will contribute its own!). Some might say that bass like this sounds dry, or lacks impact - which it certainly does because the cone isn't continuing to move after the signal ends. But this is my preference, hence my recommendation for Rythmik subs. If this is not the sound you are after, then I would look towards the REL.
With this statement, REL has moved down a notch or twelve on the list of considerations. If I am reading you correctly, in very blunt terms, you are referring to lower octave "bloom" or "boom". That is the farthest thing I am looking for.

As mentioned earlier by me, the subs that lack excessive driver excursion are the preferred subs to my ears. The subs that travel upwards of 2" for a drum kick are to me, "slow" and very unappealing to the reproductive effort. Yes, lots of boom and blah that the car crowd would love but that simply is not what I am looking for when it comes to the reproductive effort in the lowest of octaves.

Tom
 

NorthStar

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treitz3

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Some people like the no "overhang" of servo susb, probably adequate to complement panels, but object to the sharp cut-off from a servo sub, saying that it is non-natural and affects subjective perceived bass quality. Any one can comment on this aspect?
FWIW, just based upon my experience with the servo based bub (Infinity dual 12"?) paired with a set of Apogee Centaurus'? These ears did not detect anything "non-natural". If anything, they were more natural to real sound than even the VMPS Larger and SMS-1 combo. I was very impressed and while had a week to listen to the rig, I did not personally detect any un-natural sharp cutoff. Nobody who came in to critically listen to the rig mentioned anything either. The main thing they had mentioned was how well the sub blended in with the mains.

Personally, I preferred the lack of "boom" you typically would get from many subs. To me, this is my idea of "musical". ;)

Tom
 

Keith_W

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2012
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Melbourne, Australia
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Criteria #2 is always a fail at the house. Not enough room.

Hi Tom, it is incorrect to believe that small rooms can not reproduce low bass. It most definitely can - it produces bass through pressure mode. Furthermore, apparent room size is larger for subwoofers - this is because whilst a given wall density might reflect short wavelengths, it may be porous for long wavelengths. This is true unless you live in a concrete bunker. If you live, like I do, in a crappy brick veneer house - the brick veneer will reflect mid and upper frequencies but allow bass to pass through. Same goes for windows.

So don't give up yet. You can definitely get low bass in a small room. Do what I suggested and take some measurements of your room to find optimal placement for your subwoofer.

I am not so sure that a solidly constructed, thick walled room is the best for bass. It is good in that your walls won't rattle like mine. But you will actually have more bass problems in a room like this.
 

16hz lover

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
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I got an email from them today.

Their flagship model woofer has (by my calculations from their specs) about 750 cubic inches of displacement in its full excursion.
.

They have 3 different numbers on their website, starting with 82 mm, then the first paragraph uses 78mm for a peak to peak, then they use 65mm in their manual for a xmax number. BUT they like most sub companies use the forward and rearward travel for their xmax specification which is not xmax but xmech. Xmax is supposed to be one-way linear travel. The was at one time a major debate in the industry called "xmax wars", as everyone was trying to top each other since we are a society based on competition.
Two other sites list the xmax at 41 (forward travel), as SVS listed 82mm, and the other 47.5mm (One 16" driver with 47.5mm of xmax moves 376CI of air)
The basket they use actually measures 15.4 inches in outer diameter( I will double check), so it's really playing the usual marketing game with us.

So which number did you use?
Thanks
 

16hz lover

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
234
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70
By the way - your question is "what is the most musical, fast, and accurate subwoofer". I should point out that the word "musical" is subjective, and the word "fast" does not apply to subwoofers. The only term that has a specific meaning is "accurate".

.

This is one of the all time greatest papers written on woofer "speed/accuracy" , by one of the most successful sub driver designers Dan Wiggins.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/WooferSpeed.pdf
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
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435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Some more great reading links on Subwoofers and all that jazz ...

• From Audio Perfectionist Journal, Richard Hardesty: http://vandersteen.com/media/files/Reprints/2wqReviewAudioPerfectionist.pdf
• This is not a direct link; it's a download article from Widescreen Review that will cost you $6 ? http://shop.widescreenreview.com/the-essential-subwoofer-buyers-guide-digital-download/
• Data-Bass: http://www.data-bass.com/systems ? Lots to explore...Systems, Drivers, Articles, Know-How, Blog.
• Rythmik Audio FAQ: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/faq.html ? Many questions and answers.

And sorry Frantz and Tom; Frantz because I said that I will try to not post links for the next couple weeks...the graphs are quasi impossible to copy and paste; I don't have enough experience...plus some links are long and rich in text and content, and Tom because you said that you'll ignore anyone without direct experience.
The precedence is the learning zone, where EVERYONE can benefit and without any restriction.
 
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16hz lover

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
234
15
70

The marketing guys are using the standard buzz words, "Ultimate Reference " it's far,far away from that,
"-astounding levels of effortless distortion free power",
-Stunningly powerful 1,500 watts(guess they don't know about the 5,500 watt rms plate amps other subs use),
"-an incomparable bass experience, nothing else comes close." (They haven't gotten out of their lab lately)
-unmatched low frequency extension and output capabilities (look at the frequency response graph on their site to see how fast it drops off below 20hz), using the standard purple line, and it it is using available room gain.

"unleash a staggering 95mm peak to peak excursion and the highest levels of motor force and palpable SPLs"
And most of the gullible Sheeple will believe 99% of what they dish out.
 
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LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Some more great reading links on Subwoofers and all that jazz ...
...
• Data-Bass: http://www.data-bass.com/systems ? Lots to explore...Systems, Drivers, Articles, Know-How, Blog.
...

This is a fun website, full of measurements of lists and lists of subwoofers, where you can pull up their measurements, and then ADD a comparison line to show one product's measurements on the same graph as another one. Good fun.

With adjustability being a big part of integrating/setting up any sub imho, it was nice to see the Velodyne hold its head up in a big crowd of subs on an absolute performance basis...with its adjustability, a nice combo (though not inexpensive) with excellent pre and after-sales service for the last 23 years that we have had one in the system.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
Some more great reading links on Subwoofers and all that jazz ...

• From Audio Perfectionist Journal, Richard Hardesty: http://vandersteen.com/media/files/Reprints/2wqReviewAudioPerfectionist.pdf
• This is not a direct link; it's a download article from Widescreen Review that will cost you $6 ? http://shop.widescreenreview.com/the-essential-subwoofer-buyers-guide-digital-download/
• Data-Bass: http://www.data-bass.com/systems ? Lots to explore...Systems, Drivers, Articles, Know-How, Blog.
• Rythmik Audio FAQ: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/faq.html ? Many questions and answers.

And sorry Frantz and Tom; Frantz because I said that I will try to not post links for the next couple weeks...the graphs are quasi impossible to copy and paste; I don't have enough experience...plus some links are long and rich in text and content, and Tom because you said that you'll ignore anyone without direct experience.
The precedence is the learning zone, where EVERYONE can benefit and without any restriction.

NS

Could you do at least a little curation? Give us one or two sites , you find interesting rather than the carpet bombing? ;).
I was BTW very much aware of the Data-bass site... Excellent site for reference.

@everyone
I think I might open up a thread on subwoofer integration. To start the salvo. 95% of full range speakers need a subwoofer when they are placed in a room .... :)
To come back to a point which I believe is most important and worth repeating: How you integrate the subs with the mains is an important aspect of the perceived sound.. Many times the so-called "slow" sub sound is due to poor integration and to poor transition between the transducers in that case between the mains and the subs. That is not the only reason why the addition of a sub would result in a slow sound but it is very high in importance.
 
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LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
...@everyone
I think I might open up a thread on subwoofer integration. To start the salvo. 95% of full range speakers need a subwoofer when they are placed in a room .... :)
To come back to a point which I believe is most important and worth repeating: How you integrate the subs with the mains is an important aspect of the perceived sound.. Many times the so-called "slow" sub sound is due to poor integration and to poor transition between the transducers in that case between the mains and the subs. That is not the only reason why the addition of a sub would result in a slow sound but it is very high in importance.

As soon as you open it up and i see it...i'm there. Thanks FrantzM. Looking forward to it.
 

Jim Smith

Industry Expert
Dec 14, 2012
203
177
948
79
NS

@everyone
I think I might open up a thread on subwoofer integration. To start the salvo. 95% of full range speakers need a subwoofer when they are placed in a room .... :)
To come back to a point which I believe is most important and worth repeating: How you integrate the subs with the mains is an important aspect of the perceived sound.. Many times the so-called "slow" sub sound is due to poor integration and to poor transition between the transducers in that case between the mains and the subs. That is not the only reason why the addition of a sub would result in a slow sound but it is very high in importance.

FWIW - my continuing series on the above topics, and more:

http://http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwoofery-trick-or-treat/

http://www.psaudio.com/article/trick-or-treat/

http://www.psaudio.com/article/wait-a-minute/

http://www.psaudio.com/article/smooth-operator/
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
NS

Could you do at least a little curation? Give us one or two sites , you find interesting rather than the carpet bombing? ;).
I was BTW very much aware of the Data-bass site... Excellent site for reference.

@everyone
I think I might open up a thread on subwoofer integration. To start the salvo. 95% of full range speakers need a subwoofer when they are placed in a room .... :)
To come back to a point which I believe is most important and worth repeating: How you integrate the subs with the mains is an important aspect of the perceived sound.. Many times the so-called "slow" sub sound is due to poor integration and to poor transition between the transducers in that case between the mains and the subs. That is not the only reason why the addition of a sub would result in a slow sound but it is very high in importance.

Data curation is a broad term.
Critics of content curation argue that the practice is a poor substitute for content creation on the part of the site, and a poor substitute for individual research on the part of the user. Furthermore, some such sites are little more than marketing tools. However, content curation sites can be useful to people who want a quick snapshot of current content on a particular topic.

Content curation sites may be operated by an individual or relatively small group of people. Broadly collaborative content curation is sometimes referred to as social curation.

_______

This is no "carpet bombing"; all four links are part of my curriculum vitae template...I've read them all and learned a lot from it all. :b
It's up to each individual reader to form his own 'subwoofer' audio bible...platinum written tablets. Of course it's a way of speech.

I believe in measurements from DSP room correction systems (EQuing) on top of acoustic room calibration when it comes to integrating subwoofers with the main satellite channel speakers. A good EQ system can do audio magic with inexpensive quality subwoofers, IMO. ...Dirac Live, ...the latest Audyssey MultEQ XT32 iteration with manual adjustment from your laptop...
http://www.audiovero.de/en/
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
Data curation is a broad term.
Critics of content curation argue that the practice is a poor substitute for content creation on the part of the site, and a poor substitute for individual research on the part of the user. Furthermore, some such sites are little more than marketing tools. However, content curation sites can be useful to people who want a quick snapshot of current content on a particular topic.

Content curation sites may be operated by an individual or relatively small group of people. Broadly collaborative content curation is sometimes referred to as social curation.

_______

This is no "carpet bombing"; all four links are part of my curriculum vitae template...I've read them all and learned a lot from it all. :b
It's up to each individual reader to form his own 'subwoofer' audio bible...platinum written tablets. Of course it's a way of speech.

I believe in measurements from DSP room correction systems (EQuing) on top of acoustic room calibration when it comes to integrating subwoofers with the main satellite channel speakers. A good EQ system can do audio magic with inexpensive quality subwoofers, IMO. ...Dirac Live, ...the latest Audyssey MultEQ XT32 iteration with manual adjustment from your laptop...
http://www.audiovero.de/en/

What can I say ? except that : I give up ! :D
 

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