What is the most musical, fast and accurate subwoofer you have heard?

NorthStar

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Fair enough Tom; your criteria is highly valid...real world experience from WBF's members with their own sets of ears in their own rooms and with their own gear and setups and sub positioning and calibrating and equalizing.
Professional audio reviewers are always a gamble; they have their own ears, own rooms and own gear. Plus they do that for a living or as a hobby with vast experience on testing many subwoofers over the years, and some even take full useful measurements. And some are pro @ calibrating/balancing/equalizing/positioning them with the rest of the system/speakers in sync harmony. You can ignore anyone you want, it's your prerogative...your free choice.
 

Keith_W

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Tom, if you want bass reproduction between 10-20Hz, there are two very important requirements:

1. Your sub is able to produce those frequencies in the first place,
2. The intended location of the sub in your listening room does not cause cancellation of these frequencies at the listening position.

You have only asked one half of the question. The second question is just as important as the first. No point buying a monster sub that makes 10Hz, if this frequency is cancelled at the listening position.

It may be possible to predict the behaviour of the sub from a room diagram, but you would have to ask an expert to do it. For me, I would borrow a sub which is known to be capable of 10-15Hz reproduction, and place it at the listening position. I would then go around the room with a microphone and perform frequency sweeps to find the optimal position of the sub.

By the way - your question is "what is the most musical, fast, and accurate subwoofer". I should point out that the word "musical" is subjective, and the word "fast" does not apply to subwoofers. The only term that has a specific meaning is "accurate".

The reason I point this out is because "musicality" means different things to different people. Some might like the "warmness" of a REL subwoofer, or the punch of a ported sub. Some might like the "dryness" of a servo controlled subwoofer. For me personally I prefer the notes to start and stop when they are supposed to start and stop, with no additional overhang from the subwoofers (because the room will contribute its own!). Some might say that bass like this sounds dry, or lacks impact - which it certainly does because the cone isn't continuing to move after the signal ends. But this is my preference, hence my recommendation for Rythmik subs. If this is not the sound you are after, then I would look towards the REL.
 

treitz3

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Hello Keith and good evening to you. Them's fightin' words!!! :D

Words that I love to get me into the conversation hardcore. There are MANY things I would love to address with your questions and statements but I do have a date with the pillow and duty calls tomorrow at work. Thank you for your questions and your observations when it comes to the lowest frequency reproductive effort. As soon as I have the time, I will address your astute questions. Thank you sir.

Tom
 

DonH50

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Not Gary but a couple of comments:

Note the servo circuit must be designed with the speaker (driver) and enclosure so generally you are going to get the amp with the speaker, not a stand-alone amplifier. The amp has to have a servo (feedback) input that requires tuned response for stability. While some have argued for AB I personally doubt it matters whether you use AB or D for a sub, especially with a servo involved, but each has its compromises.

Rythmik uses either class AB, H, or D amplifiers depending upon the model. The higher-end 12" and 15" (18" on the way) models use AB or H (H is AB with a linearly tracking power supply to improve efficiency). Continuous phase control and a single-band PEQ are included, both analog. There is also a three-position damping (Q) switch and choice of extension.

Getting 5 Hz with no room gain requires a heckuva' sub, maybe something like ET's Thigpen rotary. Rythmik subs reach around 14 Hz with room gain pushing into the single digits for a number of owners (myself included). I have seen very few subs that claim 5 Hz "natively" without room gain. I suppose it depends upon what you mean by "faithfully provides sound", i.e. at what SPL, how far down from the 20 Hz response, and with what distortion level.

OK, that was three comments... ;)

IME/IMO - Don
 

garylkoh

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No, thanks.

Good evening gentlemen. Thank you for your responses. I will say this...If you have no experience with a sub you have mentioned or offer links to a sub you have no experience with, I will ignore your responses.

Note - I design a sub and Rhythmik is my competitor, and still I recommend them because I can't make them as economically as they can. Mine are IMHO better made, but far, far more expensive.


Gary, you say that a servo type sub would be almost mandatory. Is there a type of plate amp or amp I should be looking for that pairs well with a servo sub? Would a class D amp do the lower frequencies justice and out of curiosity, what do you use for your big boys? Servo controlled I take?

Tom

Because the amplifier is INSIDE the servo-loop, you can't choose your amplifier because the result would be uncertain. The old Infinities had that problem. I use a Class D amp inside the servo-loop for many, many reasons. All of the Genesis loudspeakers have a servo-controlled amplifier built in.

One point I'd like to highlight - as long as you have two speakers (subs, full range, etc.) even in an anechoic chamber, at some frequency and multiples of that frequency, there will be a cancellation at the position of a single microphone. That's the nature of waves. This frequency can be calculated as the frequency represented by the wavelength of the delta of the frequency these two sources of sound waves are apart. As long as this wavelength is not represented in the music you play (use the frequencies of the musical notes at the various tunings to determine this) then it should not be heard with music. That's why when I set up my speakers, there is a certain distance that I use between the woofers.
 

microstrip

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A late response that will please the servo team - the best subwoofer I have listened to was the Krell Master subwoofer. Two 18" subs with powered solid state accelerometers. But is was also by far the most expensive ...

PS - where are the JL Audio fans? Too busy listening to their music with fast and accurate bass?
 

microstrip

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By the way - your question is "what is the most musical, fast, and accurate subwoofer". I should point out that the word "musical" is subjective, and the word "fast" does not apply to subwoofers. The only term that has a specific meaning is "accurate".

The reason I point this out is because "musicality" means different things to different people. Some might like the "warmness" of a REL subwoofer, or the punch of a ported sub. Some might like the "dryness" of a servo controlled subwoofer. For me personally I prefer the notes to start and stop when they are supposed to start and stop, with no additional overhang from the subwoofers (because the room will contribute its own!). Some might say that bass like this sounds dry, or lacks impact - which it certainly does because the cone isn't continuing to move after the signal ends. But this is my preference, hence my recommendation for Rythmik subs. If this is not the sound you are after, then I would look towards the REL.

Some people like the no "overhang" of servo susb, probably adequate to complement panels, but object to the sharp cut-off from a servo sub, saying that it is non-natural and affects subjective perceived bass quality. Any one can comment on this aspect?
 

FrantzM

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Hi

It is very difficult if not impossible to evaluate subwoofers by their lone selves. They must integrate with mains. Often what we come to like as the subwoofer contribution mainly fast, accurate, slow , etc is the integration or lack thereof. I also surmise that in the vast majority of cases it is better to use more than one sub.
I would venture to say that when integration is good .. The differences between subs become less pronounced. Even for rather inexpensive subs ...
 

microstrip

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Not to make too fine a point but ...

It is very difficult if not impossible to evaluate a subwoofer by its lone self. They must integrate with mains. Often what we come to like as the subwoofer contribution mainly fast, accurate, slow , etc is the integration or lack thereof.
I would venture to say that when integration is good .. The differences between subs can become less pronounced ..

But then the question becomes - what technically makes good integration? Is there a type of sub that, in general, is easier to integrate (here integrate seems to mean sound better :D)? Something more comprehensive than just Wilson integrates with Wilson, Magico with Magico, Genesis with Genesis, Martin Logan with Martin Logan ...
 

garylkoh

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But then the question becomes - what technically makes good integration? Is there a type of sub that, in general, is easier to integrate (here integrate seems to mean sound better :D)? Something more comprehensive than just Wilson integrates with Wilson, Magico with Magico, Genesis with Genesis, Martin Logan with Martin Logan ...

IMHO, the crossover of the subwoofer must be coherent with the crossover of the main speaker. There is always a phase shift at the crossover point. So, integration can become a bit like the roll of a dice.

In the days before I took over design at Genesis, the main part of the speaker was driven by the main power amp, and the woofers with their servo-controlled bass amplifier would be driven line level by the preamplifier. This means that the low-pass crossover of the bass was totally dissociated from the high-pass crossover of the midrange. The main problem with this is that when the main power amp is changed, the "sound" of the bass does not change. The elephant in the room that no audiophile talked about was that due to group delay in the main power amp, the timing of the bass was completely dissociated from the timing of the midrange. Hence the reputation of "slow" bass.

When integrating a subwoofer to a pair of loudspeakers - if the speaker does not have a high-pass crossover at the bottom of the range, then there is no phase shift. When you have a loudspeaker with ported woofers, this phase behavior is even more difficult to understand. Hence, there will definitely be some phase anomaly at the integration frequency which is simply the low-pass frequency set at the subwoofer.

The separate F and Q settings of some subwoofers like the Rhythmik and Rels will give you more tools with which to help integration.

All the Genesis speakers I design have built-in servo-controlled powered woofers - I manage the integration and coherence between the high-pass passive filter of the mid-bass coupler and the low-pass active filter of the woofers to manage the crossover between these two sets of drivers. Hence, the only time you would use a subwoofer with a pair of Genesis loudspeakers is if you buy one of my bookshelf monitors - and those also have a high-pass crossover for the woofers just so that you CAN integrate a Genesis subwoofer.
 

DonH50

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I did listen to a couple of JL's and they were fine subs. Just didn't rise out of the pack IMO. Note that the bar was pretty high so it was a very fine pack; I would have happily lived with a JL.

Gary's endorsement of Rythmik is likely the strongest argument in this thread; certainly much more credible than mine. I'm pretty happy to be in agreement with him!
 

microstrip

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(...) The elephant in the room that no audiophile talked about was that due to group delay in the main power amp, the timing of the bass was completely dissociated from the timing of the midrange. (...)

Gary,

How significant is group delay in power amplifiers? Perhaps wrongly I have the feeling that it is too low to have any effect in bass frequencies.
 

Rodney Gold

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I used 4 SVS SB13 ultras with my Giya G1's.
more as node busters than for any extra extension. The swarm of subs approach/distributed bass thing

With subs , output was pretty good from 12-14hz .. not sure about 8hz .. never tried, I actually put in a 48db/octave roll off at 14hz and below.. cleaned up quite a lot compared to letting the subs mess with infrasonics.
I used a miniDSP unit to integrate the subs ..
The SVS subs are the dog's bollocks , as good as any of the higher end subs I have heard..they can shift serious amounts of air. Excellent pricing too

Im pretty much a basshead , to the extent of having blinds come crashing down and cracking my ceiling , my dog runs upstairs to cower when I play bass rich material like Yello or other electronica .. it has to be super tight and deep.
My G1's do that room shuddering pressurised low bass for me with or without subs .. so I sold my SVS's to fund another Devialet amp .
 

Keith_W

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How significant is group delay in power amplifiers? Perhaps wrongly I have the feeling that it is too low to have any effect in bass frequencies.

Answer:

1. Very little, and
2. Nobody knows what the lower threshold of audibility is for group delay below 200Hz. The AES paper that studied the audibility of group delay only studied frequencies from 200Hz and up.

If we are talking frequencies about 30-40Hz it would be even more difficult, if not impossible, to measure in a listening room.

And yes, I agree - Gary's endorsement of Rythmik is the strongest in this thread. If you are concerned that the cabinets are poorly made, you can do what I did - design your own sub. Rythmik's webpage has a reference subwoofer design. All you need to do is design a box with the appropriate internal volume and adequate bracing. I did the design, and commissioned a loudspeaker designer to check the design, transfer the design to CAD, and then get the cabinets made and built. I specified twin layers of 18mm MDF for the walls and lots of internal bracing. I would have used HDF if I was able to get some, but nobody in Australia knew how to get it. I ended up with a box that performs as well as hoped, is really well made, and looks like part of the furniture. It still ended up being cheaper than a commercial sub of same quality.
 

garylkoh

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Gary,

How significant is group delay in power amplifiers? Perhaps wrongly I have the feeling that it is too low to have any effect in bass frequencies.

Enough to cause oscillation in a servo circuit if not carefully applied. It is also highly dependent on the design of the circuit.

As for audibility, if you have a tube amp as the main power amp, and a Class D (very low group delay) bass amplifier, it is easily audible even by the un-trained ear.
 

16hz lover

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Tom: Are you open to DIY, or just commercial subs?
And do have a budget?
How much space is alloted for a box?
Multiple subs or just one?
 
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microstrip

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Enough to cause oscillation in a servo circuit if not carefully applied. It is also highly dependent on the design of the circuit.

As for audibility, if you have a tube amp as the main power amp, and a Class D (very low group delay) bass amplifier, it is easily audible even by the un-trained ear.

Thanks - I was thinking about the typical SS DC coupled A/B design. But I see that tubes can really have a problem here.
 

Ron Resnick

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I would throw into the ring Mark Seaton's subwoofers. Mark is extremely experienced and delightful to work with, and he will take on custom projects.

I still remain fascinated by dual Wilson Audio Thors Hammers.

Philosophically, I like the idea of generating low frequencies naturally -- through big drivers in big enclosures -- rather than through high wattage amplifiers in small boxes.
 

LL21

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Hey Ron,

Noticed your signature block has changed on speakers to Gryphon Pendragon (ordered). Congrats! Big news! Tell us more when you can and perhaps on the appropriate thread...just please tell us which one so we can track.
 

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