Imagine WBF paying Phoenix Engineering to conduct testing of turntables and publishing measurements. I tried to get members to simply put a Sutherland Timeline strobe on their turntables and video record the results. I was told the device is flawed. No one did it. These things can be humbling. As can videos. Visitors are “polite” so we might not get honest assessments. The whole thing is fascinating.
Wave Kinetics NVS Reference Turntable Review on Positive Feedback
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For the record, no posts were deleted by myself or the moderating team. They were deleted by the author.
Tom
the root cause is only one thing, the contractor violated his obligations to his client. exactly why he did that is unknown. so any harm to him is self inflicted. you are welcome to ask Ed the owner of the turntable who blew the whistle. maybe he did? i have no idea.
you and Peter's efforts at deflecting is sad. but i understand.
any sort of measuring value starts with trust. normally that comes from end users doing it for products they owned, or an actual 3rd party who is not aligned with anyone. i won't even venture to characterize your suggestion. in any case, i doubt any owner or manufacturer would submit their gear for dissection. so likely a dead end.
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Mike, there’s no deflection going on from me. I think we understand now what transpired, more or less. We saw the results of the testing and they were posted here temporarily. Trying to discuss the results is not a deflection. Does anyone have any reason to doubt the accuracy of the test results? The deflection is not discussing the test results and immediately questioning bias and motivation.
Richard Krebbs(sp?) worked on the Oma K3 turntable. If he lends his expertise or consults with other manufacturers or posts comments here, are they somehow tainted because he worked with Jonathan Weiss a subscribed or sponsored dealer here?
What about the Grand Prix Monaco turntable, another highly regarded direct drive turntable. Would we not welcome measurements from a third-party shared on a thread about that turntable? Would we not welcome comments from the designer?
These guys are members of the industry and highly regarded. The sharing of their opinions used to be welcomed here. I communicated with and consulted with Phoenix Engineering long before I ever bought David‘s AS2000. He knows his stuff. I wonder if the measurements had met the specifications if there would’ve been all this pressure for him to delete what he shared. And I wonder the fate of the rogue employee.
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Something caused Phoenix Engineering to remove the posts. I simply was refuting your implication that WBF had something to do with it.
Peter, I don’t know the details of the testing and frankly don’t care. However, if someone wants to test a piece of equipment and publish the results wouldn’t you expect them to do this in coordination with the manufacturer? That seems to me to be the proper way to do it. Having someone test something of unknown provenance and condition and post the results as though they are representative of the product in general is wrong to me.
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Eeesh! I must be doing something wrong if you're confusing me with Peter.
LOL, my mistake.
I think I don't see it this way. Without some undisclosed and subverting complication like the item is in the shop for repair, if I buy a new component and I have it tested by an outside third party and I publish the test report of the third party about my own component, I don't see a problem with that.
There are all sorts of ways this could become unfair or misrepresentative, such as I purchased the component used and perhaps it was tampered with by a prior owner -- and I did not disclose that background fully as part of the test report disclosure.
Yes I understand that. We do not know the origin of how or why Phoenix engineering got involved in this. It might have been for the repair of the non-functioning turntable. It seems like it was a dealer and owner of the sample who put pressure for the removal of the posts showing testing results, not the manufacturer.
What if a hobbyist has the skills and knowledge and equipment to do such measurements? Are you suggesting he must contact the manufacturer and coordinate with him before he shares the results of his experiments with a group of hobbyist?
I understand the implications of this for the industry and that some might want to control the dissemination of information and advocate going through official channels and require prior approval before publication.
It is a sensitive topic as I found out after sharing results of my Sutherland timeline demonstrations on my former SME turntable, a friends SP 10 Mk 3, and my new AS2000 turntables. I shared those results with the public on YouTube and on forums for anyone interested. I did not seek prior approval. Are you suggesting that is wrong?
I come here for information and to learn. It seems like there are two discussions going on. One is about the events that transpired and motivations. The other is about the test results. I have yet to read anyone is disputing the testing methodology or the accuracy of the results.
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customers own the data of repair or sales facilities. in the auto repair and sales environment you can be sued (or subject to fines or penalties) if you disclose transaction or repair information without authorization. the manufacturer gets data for use for warranty and analysis purposes, but cannot disclose it to third parties except the Federal Gov. customers are free to disclose anything they want, post on social media, etc, etc......and they do that to a fault. one reason i'm glad i'm retired.
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As others have stated, your not disputing the data.
I do very much see the point that a contracted party to do work would most likely be in breach if they shared the readings and interpretation with outside other parties. But then again, is there anything in writing with a small TT company. This is not a auto dealership. Ethically??????? That's a different question.
I would welcome that. I have no clue what the tests would show but I'm not afraid to find out.
Actually that's not true. You are the one who wants to talk about anything but the test results.
But I understand. You had a close relationship with the Wave Kinetics owner. You have invested a lot of time on this forum writing about the NVS turntable, a lot of time telling us about how great it is. Maybe it is -- no one is attacking it or you, although you may feel that way.
The test results and parts description is a bit embarassing. I understand. This entire incident is sad in the way it took place.. It would be better for the industry if it had not happened, in terms of the Elsburgish revelation, in terms of the test results themselves and in terms of the mismatch between reality and advertising claims. None of that should change your enjoyment in owning the table as you have expressed; no doubt its sound is the same as it was a month ago.
The Karmeli twins just won’t give up. Anyone else imagine master David directing their next moves? So weird.
So David Karmeli , not even making any turntables currently, is orchestrating this "smear campaign " against another turntable manufacturer. By using Bill from Phoenix Engineering, PeterA and Tima as his pawns. Sure, that makes sense !
You are a Genius !PeterA and Tima as his pawns. Sure, that makes sense !
It does not make any sense. David hates DD TT. Any David’s potential customers will not consider DD TT in the first place. There is no need for any smear campaign. Someone is watching too much Netflix.So David Karmeli , not even making any turntables currently, is orchestrating this "smear campaign " against another turntable manufacturer. By using Bill from Phoenix Engineering, PeterA and Tima as his pawns. Sure, that makes sense !
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