Wave Kinetics NVS Reference Turntable Review on Positive Feedback

Status
Not open for further replies.

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,318
1,427
1,820
Manila, Philippines
I already have a product in the same price bracket. It wouldn't be fair to either given how small our market is and how little time for the audio business I now have. If JT wants, I can ask around for him if he wants representation here. All the distributors here get along very well.
 

jtinn

Industry Expert
Apr 20, 2010
503
70
483
It's a fabulous TT. Every time I hear it, I find things that I like more and more. Jonathan's rooms at shows have always been in my top 3

Thank you Steve.
 

jtinn

Industry Expert
Apr 20, 2010
503
70
483
Jaime and I have yet to meet up again despite his wife's brother being one of my closest friends from childhood. I hope to hear his MM7s and Darts soon. Life just keeps on getting in the way.

I can't wait. Jaime is such a great guy and has a beautiful room and setup.
 

jazdoc

Member Sponsor
Aug 7, 2010
3,326
736
1,700
Bellevue
I've also had the opportunity to hear the NVS/Telos/Anna combo many times and it is certainly world class.
 

jtinn

Industry Expert
Apr 20, 2010
503
70
483
+1

Jonathan's room was, I think, the best I heard at T.H.E. Show Newport this year.

Thanks so much Ron. It was a pleasure listening and spending time with you.
 

jtinn

Industry Expert
Apr 20, 2010
503
70
483
I've also had the opportunity to hear the NVS/Telos/Anna combo many times and it is certainly world class.

People I trust have told me how nicely your system has evolved. Congratulations!
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,318
1,427
1,820
Manila, Philippines
I can't wait. Jaime is such a great guy and has a beautiful room and setup.

His music library is insane. I guess it helps to be the owner of the biggest high end book and music store in the country. Lucky dog!
 

Nevillekapadia

VIP/Donor
Aug 30, 2010
231
27
933
I've also had the opportunity to hear the NVS/Telos/Anna combo many times and it is certainly world class.

Having being fortunate of hearing it twice at the same place as you do, I would say a resounding +1 too.
 

Solypsa

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2017
1,811
1,400
275
Seattle
www.solypsa.com
. I don't think I've ever seen a DD table that didn't use a coreless motor, and cogging is the primary culprit with iron core motors and why they shouldn't be used.
Was common in the 70s to have motors with core but yes not the current s.o.t.a
I've not seen any instrument or software that could measure W&F or speed accuracy to 6 places right of the decimal point. One of my criticisms of mfrs is that they sometimes appear to pull numbers out of the air
Yes claiming specs below the threshold of test equipment does seem like it invites scrutiny...
 

djsina2

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2019
1,165
1,006
243
I had the chance to spend some time with the Wave Kinetics NVS table this weekend to do some measurements and analysis. I was most impressed by the metal work and overall mechanical design as well as the platter and bearing, which appear to be top notch. That said, the electronics and the actual performance was rather shocking, especially at this price point. Looking at their website and the review is even more shocking, given the specs they flout and how far off they are from actual measurements.

My first surprise was when I opened the lower cover that houses the motor. The motor is an Anaheim Automation BLY172D-24V-1000 ($102) with some minor modifications from the stock offering (BLY172D-24V-2000). The stock motor has 8 poles, the modified version in the NVS has 24 poles. The motor is packaged in an standard NEMA 17 footprint (42mm square) and is commonly used for industrial purposes. They refer to this motor as "laboratory-grade" in the PF review (I can't believe how naive reviewers can be). The motor also has an iron core for the stator windings which means it will have cogging. I don't think I've ever seen a DD table that didn't use a coreless motor, and cogging is the primary culprit with iron core motors and why they shouldn't be used. The motor uses an optical encoder for feedback and speed control, but it only has 2500 PPR resolution, similar to the VPI HW40 which produces equally bad results.

I measured the speed accuracy and stabilty directly off the encoder which will not have any record eccentricity or other defects to skew the results. At 33 1/3 RPM, the encoder should produce 1388.88888Hz, but ran slightly high at 1389.2Hz (+0.0224%), a long way from 1PPM.

The speed stability was quite poor actually, measuring ~0.1625% as shown on the polar plot:

View attachment 118990

There are 24 distinct "lobes" where the magnetic rotor passes each pole of the stator which causes cogging and speed instability. 1PPM?

The controller uses a Motorola MC56F80 16 bit fixed point DSP which was designed specifically for motor control, but it's limited resolution and math capabilities does not make it suited for high end audio IMHO. The display uses an Arduino Uno to drive a TFT color LCD shield which are commonly used by hobbyists. The interconnects between the controller and the table use a pair of CAT5 cables with RJ45 connectors; sensible enough for the control lines but woefully undersized for the motor as the windings are just over one Ohm and require considerable current. It leads me to believe the controller was designed for other purposes, possibly as a development kit or demo PCB.

The metal work, bearing and platter are most impressive and I could understand where that could take a lot of time and effort to achieve. But assembling a team of aerospace engineers etc. to do this kind of motor drive seems a bit incredulous. The 1PPM spec really strikes me as odd for a number of reasons: It obviously does not measure anywhere close to that and secondly, what would they have used to produce such a number in the first place? I've not seen any instrument or software that could measure W&F or speed accuracy to 6 places right of the decimal point. One of my criticisms of mfrs is that they sometimes appear to pull numbers out of the air for specifications and are never able to back them up with actual measurements or data; unless someone can post some rationale for these specs, I'd have to conclude that WK are doing the same thing here.

How did it sound?

Music has little to do with lab measurements. Recently, most people thought an AF3P sounded better than the OMA K3 (which we’re told is one of the greatest engineering achievements of mankind).
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Johan K

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
11,662
4,410
Send me one and I will be glad to, although it is belt drive and doesn't have an encoder so it will be apples and oranges.

If you still have a WK NVS, I'd be glad to test that one as well and you will know the provenance of that machine.

Let me ask you a question: Are you not bothered when a mfr makes claims that defy common sense that are not borne out by simple measurements?
if i saw you test 10 turntables i don't own, in the same "disassembly way" it would then appear to be 'random' testing one of mine (you picked on the Esoteric too). but this is you being a blatantly obvious tool with an agenda. if an end user owner publicly asks you to dissect their turntable that is a different thing.
 
Last edited:

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
11,662
4,410
..........so why would you even care?
3 posts above your post are three by jtinn, who's product it is. he passed away 6 months ago yesterday, and was one of my closest friends, and i was at a memorial for him a week ago Saturday. i miss him greatly. so that in addition to me clearly being targeted.
 
Last edited:

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,185
13,611
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
. why don't you do this for an AS-2000?

does not pass the smell test for me.

I have no dog in this hunt. But unless there is a reasonable basis to believe the measurement was not performed honestly or correctly it sounds to me like a public service. I would be curious to have this test performed on a variety of popular turntables.
 

mtemur

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2019
1,406
1,346
245
48
I have no dog in this hunt. But unless there is a reasonable basis to believe the measurement was not performed honestly or correctly it sounds to me like a public service. I would be curious to have this test performed on a variety of popular turntables.
I totally agree. Even though measurements don't always relate to final sound and bad measured products can sound great it's still good to see measurements.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
11,662
4,410
the real story.

A non-functioning Wave Kinetics NVS tt owned by Ed Sudario (The Audio Association—HiFi Dealer in SoCal) was sent for repair to CGI (manufacturing facility) and a rogue employee plus a contractor (Phoenix Engineering) did measuring and then posting about it without authorization. CGI was informed about the posts and demanded they be removed. The posts have been removed.
 
Last edited:

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,646
10,898
3,515
USA
the real story.

A non-functioning Wave Kinetics NVS tt owned by Ed Sudario (The Audio Association—HiFi Dealer in SoCal) was sent for repair to CGI (manufacturing facility) and a rogue employee plus a contractor (Phoenix Engineering) did measuring and then posting about it without authorization. CGI was informed about the posts and demanded they be removed. The posts have been removed.

I am curious how a non-functioning turntable could be tested for speed accuracy.

It is also interesting that a manufacturing and repair facility could make such a demand on an independent audio forum.

I am also curious now about the rest of the story. How did the turntable become non-functioning, and is it possible to repair it?

I think, in fairness, disparaging remarks and accusations about Phoenix Engineering should also be removed from this thread. Once the decision to edit the content of this thread was made, why just not remove everything involved with this recent discussion? Why leave the plug for the repair facility and the accusations against a fellow member?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing