Hey Big Dog, Presumably you have seen that CJ now have a new Reference Amp...using KT150s. Do you know anything about it? Have you heard it?
The marvellous Martin Logan CLX ART – is definitely a work of “ART”
- Thread starter Big Dog RJ
- Start date
Hey Big Dog, Presumably you have seen that CJ now have a new Reference Amp...using KT150s. Do you know anything about it? Have you heard it?
Hi mate,
Sorry for the late reply, I've been orbiting to other planets... finally down to earth as of this week and will be based back in the North East suburbs for at least a while.
Nice point about the "wife" and definitely agree on that. However, now I am trying to understand her better and especially after 16 years of "heartfelt marriage" it's high time I spend more time with family and dedicate my priorities in a more positive way, other than towards audio systems all the time...
Having said that, I had the awesome experience of listening to the new Martin Logan Ren15 with a CJ classic 120 and a Kondo Overture, both fitted with EL34's. The main difference though, the CJ is EL34 in ultra-linear mode and the Kondo is pure class A in triode delivering just 32w of pure bliss- wow what a combination!
What system do you have there in your home land of Italy? Is it a Martin Logan as well or something else?
Cheers and have a good one,
RJ
G'day matie,
Sorry for the late reply, been held up across town with new projects/teams to manage and stores to set up, finally got some time off and will be heading back to the North East. I thought I must reply after quite a few messages have been piling up... and especially during our long weekend, where I probably got the best listening experience to remember for a long time...
To answer your question about CJ's new anniversary amp edition with the KT150's, no I have not heard this one, and it probably won't arrive in Melbourne /Aus for that matter. Why? because the CJ importer/main distributor (who I happen to know very well) needs to sell off their old/existing CJ stock first. They just took delivery of the Classic 60SE and the CAV45, plus the CA150. Therefore, they haven't yet ordered the new Classic range of amps as yet or did they ever order any top line gear such as the ART amps or GAT.
These systems are costing a fortune over here, and will retail over 30 grand for just one item. Hence, the market in high-end audio on those terms is very minimal, plus if someone had the means of making such purchases, you would probably see more sports cars and 4 wheels running around rather than hi-fi...
The last time I inquired about the GAT series 2 was quoted around 38 grand, that's nearly 40 grand just for a preamp! All the high-end of CJ gear that I have listened to and compared even at home with the ARTsa and GAT, have been purchased in Asian markets and imported directly under personal affects. This is because it costs far too much in $AUD. This was also a similar form few decades ago in Colombo when people who were capable of direct imports would actually import directly from Spore rather than place orders through us, hence we lost numbers in the long run and CJ gear was starting to get mega exorbitant... eventually closed up the dealership.
The system that I listened to this last weekend comprised of some very lofty standards along with lofty prices. Therefore, I could only guess that this chap would be the first person to acquire CJ's anniversary edition KT150 amp, if at all. He seems extremely pleased with the Kondo overture that retails for 20 grand and delivers 32w in pure class A. I have tried this amp on my Quads and it was superb up to a certain point. On the Martin Logan Ren 15 it's just outstanding! I just don't have the words to describe it but I will form a post tomorrow when I get the time.
The Classic 120 in EL34's is one remarkable amplifier and is a "true classic" in every sense of the word. That midrange on the Ren15's stat panel- oh my gosh! Talk about the "absolute sound" in full glory... what I missed though was any of these amps driving a stat panel, such as the CLX in full range, now that would have been the ultimate.
And, now I know why Roberto's ears are having a time of their life! One superb and outstanding system Roberto would be enjoying- his CLX's driven full range with the Classic 120.
As soon as I do come across the new KT150 anniversary edition, I will certainly let you know/ I do know for a fact that CJ will be putting out some new models incorporating the kT150's and these are going to cost even more than the existing range. Oh well, might as well just sit back and listen and enjoy as much as possible based on what we can afford.
There is a Kondo Overture (demo unit) available at half the suggested retail, I was going "mmmm" but the "good wife!" Got to love her for it, I must stay strong and content with the humble CAV45, for now...
Cheers and have a great one, RJ
Hi,
a had MArtin Logan CLS many years ago,and i read this thread about CLX because i think is a very interesting speaker
I have an Italian speaker Montagna with CH Precision amp
I show you one pictures to show you this speaker that for me is very special
Regards
a had MArtin Logan CLS many years ago,and i read this thread about CLX because i think is a very interesting speaker
I have an Italian speaker Montagna with CH Precision amp
I show you one pictures to show you this speaker that for me is very special
Regards
wow! nice one indeed mate. Looks like a similar topology to the Avant Garde's. Must be some pretty impressive bass from those drivers. Now I can only imagine what the wife would say if I had something like this, she'll say "walk the plank matie... arrr"
I just got the electrical layout sorted out for our new house, to be ready by mid next year. The only approval I managed to get so far was the dedicated 10Amp AC line for the system- and that's all she wrote!
Cheers mate and enjoy your music! Thanks for sharing that pic, looks fantastic.
RJ
I just got the electrical layout sorted out for our new house, to be ready by mid next year. The only approval I managed to get so far was the dedicated 10Amp AC line for the system- and that's all she wrote!
Cheers mate and enjoy your music! Thanks for sharing that pic, looks fantastic.
RJ
Thank you for the photo Gian60. I have read about the Montagna speakers. Very impressive. Would you mind saying what their retail price is?
Thank you. And I appreciated the article about all the Italian music systems. You are lucky to have such good friends.
G'day folks, just wanted to add a few comments to this already lengthy post, which has seen pas its expiry but nevertheless always good to say something positive!
My dad arrived last Wed, and he's off this coming Sun, after having spent a great time in Melbourne. At 84, he definitely has slowed down a lot, it made me quite sad when he seems to struggle to walk even short distances (thinking they're long...) and ends up huffing and puffing. I try to get some exercise going but he rather enjoys our almost daily wine & cheese sessions followed by superb music. And speaking of music, he has finally proclaimed that Martin Logan's definitely have more detail and ambiance not only in the soundstage but also that critical and precise space around the notes/instruments and performers. Once he got used to the Ethos and CJ system, I told him that I was keeping a the best for last and will be auditioning a ML system that I find to the ultimate in total naturalness and unhindered level of musicality.
And this took place as of yesterday at my dear friends place, Mr. Kostas and the CLX's! Wow wee indeed! The CLX's sound even better, and this was partly due to the new digital playback component he has acquired lately, called the CD/SACD/DSD playback system by T+A. What an outstanding precision piece of German engineering. Superb circuitry, discrete power supplies and input/output connections, high voltage topology with an added warm sort of analog sound but can deliver some hefty dynamics when called for. I have not heard a digital playback system of this finesse, and believe me I have heard some ultra-level crazy priced systems. Pucini digital systems/Dac's from Meitner, 40 grand DAC's and transports from MBL plus some ridiculous digital music servers costing over 30 grand... forget it! The T+A delivers a knock out with all of them in the ring. I don't have the exact words to describe the sound but it is like no other and has to be experienced on a top quality system to be appreciated in its true essence.
I inquired about the price, which I generally don't like to do, and it turned out the pricewise was not too far from the McIntosh SACD unit I paid for few years ago! Dammit, seems like I missed that one too, apart from the possibility of owning the CLX's few years back, if I was more informed about the reliability factor of the Quads... I still regret this, and the wifey seems to bring it up in one way or the other during our endless debates over her fancy for diamonds, which never break down, but ah ha! those Quads do...
Anyway, getting back to the sound, Kostas also played simultaneously the LP of the same track and when switched over from LP to CD, there was hardly a difference in levels. The main difference was in the dynamics, subtle notes and the spacial cues around each minute note is fully captured in the T+A. The dynamism and extension of frequency is mesmerizing and that tonal quality is so perfect, you can actually reach out and touch each individual and thank them for their wonderful performance.
Another mesmerizing factor was when a Japanese Jazz ensemble was played, followed by some unknown group playing Iranian music- Wow! My dad has visited Iran on several occasions and remembered, nearly 30 years ago, these small groups of musicians playing, travelling via donkey with the tabla drums hanging on either side. They would play mostly classical Iranian music from that era and this was when the Sha was in rule. Dad could clearly recollect this similar piece straight away and was taken back in time like a warp machine in time travel. He claims that this type of music is not in existence now, hence most people don't even know of these genres nor have even heard these particular instruments live!
This ensemble being played through the CLX's in its true full range form was actually the most lifelike I have ever heard to date! Although the Japanese jazz group was outstanding, this Iranian group was simply mind boggling, the way they compose their music, just playing through feelings and in darkness (according to the liner notes) no lights and in some sort of reverbent hall, which could also he heard to a superb effect of extremely well balanced recorded music.
This is the first time, after a very long time, we were both stopped in our tracks and proclaimed that the Apogee Diva's cannot deliver this sort of detail. Ribbons are of a totally different nature, and for me to say that they cannot deliver similar sonic performance would be unfair. What I'm trying to say is that ribbons are definitely different from stats, they seem to add more weight and slam in certain areas, no doubt but the CLX's are capable of all the required weight and slam when called for, and boy can they deliver some superb sonics!
Anyway, I will leave this post now with these positive experiences since I am now fully convinced what my next stats will be. I reckon it's a matter of time...
Cheers to all, and specially to those who have their CLX's, you just got to love them!
RJ
My dad arrived last Wed, and he's off this coming Sun, after having spent a great time in Melbourne. At 84, he definitely has slowed down a lot, it made me quite sad when he seems to struggle to walk even short distances (thinking they're long...) and ends up huffing and puffing. I try to get some exercise going but he rather enjoys our almost daily wine & cheese sessions followed by superb music. And speaking of music, he has finally proclaimed that Martin Logan's definitely have more detail and ambiance not only in the soundstage but also that critical and precise space around the notes/instruments and performers. Once he got used to the Ethos and CJ system, I told him that I was keeping a the best for last and will be auditioning a ML system that I find to the ultimate in total naturalness and unhindered level of musicality.
And this took place as of yesterday at my dear friends place, Mr. Kostas and the CLX's! Wow wee indeed! The CLX's sound even better, and this was partly due to the new digital playback component he has acquired lately, called the CD/SACD/DSD playback system by T+A. What an outstanding precision piece of German engineering. Superb circuitry, discrete power supplies and input/output connections, high voltage topology with an added warm sort of analog sound but can deliver some hefty dynamics when called for. I have not heard a digital playback system of this finesse, and believe me I have heard some ultra-level crazy priced systems. Pucini digital systems/Dac's from Meitner, 40 grand DAC's and transports from MBL plus some ridiculous digital music servers costing over 30 grand... forget it! The T+A delivers a knock out with all of them in the ring. I don't have the exact words to describe the sound but it is like no other and has to be experienced on a top quality system to be appreciated in its true essence.
I inquired about the price, which I generally don't like to do, and it turned out the pricewise was not too far from the McIntosh SACD unit I paid for few years ago! Dammit, seems like I missed that one too, apart from the possibility of owning the CLX's few years back, if I was more informed about the reliability factor of the Quads... I still regret this, and the wifey seems to bring it up in one way or the other during our endless debates over her fancy for diamonds, which never break down, but ah ha! those Quads do...
Anyway, getting back to the sound, Kostas also played simultaneously the LP of the same track and when switched over from LP to CD, there was hardly a difference in levels. The main difference was in the dynamics, subtle notes and the spacial cues around each minute note is fully captured in the T+A. The dynamism and extension of frequency is mesmerizing and that tonal quality is so perfect, you can actually reach out and touch each individual and thank them for their wonderful performance.
Another mesmerizing factor was when a Japanese Jazz ensemble was played, followed by some unknown group playing Iranian music- Wow! My dad has visited Iran on several occasions and remembered, nearly 30 years ago, these small groups of musicians playing, travelling via donkey with the tabla drums hanging on either side. They would play mostly classical Iranian music from that era and this was when the Sha was in rule. Dad could clearly recollect this similar piece straight away and was taken back in time like a warp machine in time travel. He claims that this type of music is not in existence now, hence most people don't even know of these genres nor have even heard these particular instruments live!
This ensemble being played through the CLX's in its true full range form was actually the most lifelike I have ever heard to date! Although the Japanese jazz group was outstanding, this Iranian group was simply mind boggling, the way they compose their music, just playing through feelings and in darkness (according to the liner notes) no lights and in some sort of reverbent hall, which could also he heard to a superb effect of extremely well balanced recorded music.
This is the first time, after a very long time, we were both stopped in our tracks and proclaimed that the Apogee Diva's cannot deliver this sort of detail. Ribbons are of a totally different nature, and for me to say that they cannot deliver similar sonic performance would be unfair. What I'm trying to say is that ribbons are definitely different from stats, they seem to add more weight and slam in certain areas, no doubt but the CLX's are capable of all the required weight and slam when called for, and boy can they deliver some superb sonics!
Anyway, I will leave this post now with these positive experiences since I am now fully convinced what my next stats will be. I reckon it's a matter of time...
Cheers to all, and specially to those who have their CLX's, you just got to love them!
RJ
INCOMING.........
For my part, as a CLX owner, I hope that you continue to post your periodical considerations RJ, and that in the not too distant future you may share a cheese board and a nice bottle of wine with your father whilst enjoying music via your own pair of CLX's.
Interestingly your post highlights the, at times frustrating, at times incredibly rewarding, Chameleon like nature of this transducer, in that the correct or incorrect partnering of source together with Pre/Power amplification may take one on a pilgramege from Hell via Purgatory onto quicksand,to Terra Firma and thence with good fortune, or a good deal of trial and diligence to ones own personal Nirvana and Heaven, not to mention associated cables, fastidious positioning/ orientation and room/ correction.
With so many factors and variables at play It is of no great surprise nor revelation to me at the diversity of comment with reference to the CLX experience from light, bright and reasonably dynamic, through to astonishingly life like reproduction true to the quality of the recording with pin point accuracy with a faithful rendition of tonality /texture and with impressive enough dynamics for an electrostat, even without sub woofer augmentation.
With the introduction of ML's latest stator technology I find the CLX to be a truely and audibly transparent blank canvas upon which one may paint whatever picture one may desire.
For my part, as a CLX owner, I hope that you continue to post your periodical considerations RJ, and that in the not too distant future you may share a cheese board and a nice bottle of wine with your father whilst enjoying music via your own pair of CLX's.Interestingly your post highlights the, at times frustrating, at times incredibly rewarding, Chameleon like nature of this transducer, in that the correct or incorrect partnering of source together with Pre/Power amplification may take one on a pilgramege from Hell via Purgatory onto quicksand,to Terra Firma and thence with good fortune, or a good deal of trial and diligence to ones own personal Nirvana and Heaven, not to mention associated cables, fastidious positioning/ orientation and room/ correction.
With so many factors and variables at play It is of no great surprise nor revelation to me at the diversity of comment with reference to the CLX experience from light, bright and reasonably dynamic, through to astonishingly life like reproduction true to the quality of the recording with pin point accuracy with a faithful rendition of tonality /texture and with impressive enough dynamics for an electrostat, even without sub woofer augmentation.
With the introduction of ML's latest stator technology I find the CLX to be a truely and audibly transparent blank canvas upon which one may paint whatever picture one may desire.
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G'day Harlequin, well said mate!
I'm not too sure if I will acquire a pair of CLX's anytime soon though... the house and daughter's higher ed have taken precedence. Although the wifey is convinced about them no doubt and the wonderful fact that they don't require huge ugly mono amps to run... I have decided in the future on whatever purchases I make towards the system, I will always consider how it would affect the family/household. This was one huge factor I used to never consider previously, and now after all these years and the good fortune of finding honest & humble people on this very forum, I've realized you really don't have to spend mega bucks to achieve that sublime sound. After all, it's your ears that will be the final judge regardless of cost/expenditure.
And this is why I'm truly enjoying the Ethos & CJ system to the fullest! It still has plenty of potential when we move to the new place, having a much larger space to breathe and position to integrate well with the CAV45. Getting the CLX's will also mean another trip towards memory lane of pre-power once again because I don't think the CAV45 would do justice to the CLX's on it's own.
The CAV45 is a true classic in every form, I would hate to part with it. Therefore, getting the CLX's would mean having to part with it one way or the other. If it could operate as a pre, I would have probably considered the move...
Another factor is the pricing of CJ gear in Aus is starting to get a bit lofty, even on entry level gear. Top of the line and down to ET5, & the new ET7 or Classic power amps are costing a fortune. Forget the GAT or ART amps, these things are in drug money territory, hence like I said if I was to go down that line, I need to put the household first.
Having said that, just the other day I inquired about the restored Apogee's. Up North in Queensland (Qld), they're charging a hefty 16 grand upwards for a pair of the smallest Duetta's! Takes about a month or two to assemble and on top of that, you would have to spend at least another 10 grand or upwards on suitable amplification to drive the bloody things.
Compare that to the CLX's (brand new) + a nice CJ tube pre with a Pass Labs XA series amp is all I would ever require- for half that cost! The CLX system beats it in my opinion and based on my experience, also having owned Apogee's before and also having listened to these "restored" ones lately. No doubt they are superb ribbon transducers, and they do require hefty amplification to drive them properly with adequate control/grip. I'm not even sure if the XA30.8 that's matches extremely well with the CLX's would be suitable to drive Apogee's full range. With the newest designs from Martin Logan and their upgraded efficiency on all their transducers, the XA30.8 will drive any of these effortlessly!
Also, as correctly pointed out, ML's latest stator technology, and I also feel their latest built in Vojtko cross overs plus whatever new DSP or room correction gadget their using, is simply working in perfect harmony! The last statement you mentioned about the CLX's being a "transparent blank canvas upon which one may paint whatever picture one may desire" is so true in every sense of the word "transparent". They are marvelous works of art, hence why I titled this original post as the CLX's being a work of art!
Before I do or not eventually head towards that path, there is one thing I do need to try out and that is the CJ Classic 120 either standard or SE version with the CLX's. Have not yet come across this system over here, although I heard the awesome CJ GAT series 2 with the Classic 120/SE driving the Ren 15A, the levels were far too high for my sensitive ears... I sincerely feel this would have been a far pleasant audition on the CLX's, similar to the Apogee's in full range. The powered bass on the Ren15A were just too over-powering.
I would be fully content with either an Apogee system (already know the sound very well) or the CLX. But what it boils down to, for me is not only cost but also reliable service. Living quite a way from Qld, and having to ship these panels up north just for a check up/service are simply not worth the effort. I will also start to hear the good wife going on about how I spend all this money, and things begin to fall apart and not work properly... just don't want to go there! Whereas ML is concerned, the service center and direct importer are all located right here in Melbourne, and our dealer mate from Class A audio, looks after his customer's very well. Therefore, the obvious choice would be the CLX.
As for now, I am fully content with what I have and what it can deliver to it's best ability. I have learned to be satisfied with the joy of knowing that there are good things along the way, and no matter what said, we must always remain humble and appreciative for what we have. Not many are so fortunate...
By the way, pops was so taken up by the CLX's that upon his next visit to Melb towards the end of 2018, rather than visit the new place, he figured to venture first towards Kosta's place, just to listen to the CLX's, and then head towards our place upon arrival- can't argue with that!
Cheers mate and have a wonderful time with those stats- they are a marvelous work of art!
RJ
I'm not too sure if I will acquire a pair of CLX's anytime soon though... the house and daughter's higher ed have taken precedence. Although the wifey is convinced about them no doubt and the wonderful fact that they don't require huge ugly mono amps to run... I have decided in the future on whatever purchases I make towards the system, I will always consider how it would affect the family/household. This was one huge factor I used to never consider previously, and now after all these years and the good fortune of finding honest & humble people on this very forum, I've realized you really don't have to spend mega bucks to achieve that sublime sound. After all, it's your ears that will be the final judge regardless of cost/expenditure.
And this is why I'm truly enjoying the Ethos & CJ system to the fullest! It still has plenty of potential when we move to the new place, having a much larger space to breathe and position to integrate well with the CAV45. Getting the CLX's will also mean another trip towards memory lane of pre-power once again because I don't think the CAV45 would do justice to the CLX's on it's own.
The CAV45 is a true classic in every form, I would hate to part with it. Therefore, getting the CLX's would mean having to part with it one way or the other. If it could operate as a pre, I would have probably considered the move...
Another factor is the pricing of CJ gear in Aus is starting to get a bit lofty, even on entry level gear. Top of the line and down to ET5, & the new ET7 or Classic power amps are costing a fortune. Forget the GAT or ART amps, these things are in drug money territory, hence like I said if I was to go down that line, I need to put the household first.
Having said that, just the other day I inquired about the restored Apogee's. Up North in Queensland (Qld), they're charging a hefty 16 grand upwards for a pair of the smallest Duetta's! Takes about a month or two to assemble and on top of that, you would have to spend at least another 10 grand or upwards on suitable amplification to drive the bloody things.
Compare that to the CLX's (brand new) + a nice CJ tube pre with a Pass Labs XA series amp is all I would ever require- for half that cost! The CLX system beats it in my opinion and based on my experience, also having owned Apogee's before and also having listened to these "restored" ones lately. No doubt they are superb ribbon transducers, and they do require hefty amplification to drive them properly with adequate control/grip. I'm not even sure if the XA30.8 that's matches extremely well with the CLX's would be suitable to drive Apogee's full range. With the newest designs from Martin Logan and their upgraded efficiency on all their transducers, the XA30.8 will drive any of these effortlessly!
Also, as correctly pointed out, ML's latest stator technology, and I also feel their latest built in Vojtko cross overs plus whatever new DSP or room correction gadget their using, is simply working in perfect harmony! The last statement you mentioned about the CLX's being a "transparent blank canvas upon which one may paint whatever picture one may desire" is so true in every sense of the word "transparent". They are marvelous works of art, hence why I titled this original post as the CLX's being a work of art!
Before I do or not eventually head towards that path, there is one thing I do need to try out and that is the CJ Classic 120 either standard or SE version with the CLX's. Have not yet come across this system over here, although I heard the awesome CJ GAT series 2 with the Classic 120/SE driving the Ren 15A, the levels were far too high for my sensitive ears... I sincerely feel this would have been a far pleasant audition on the CLX's, similar to the Apogee's in full range. The powered bass on the Ren15A were just too over-powering.
I would be fully content with either an Apogee system (already know the sound very well) or the CLX. But what it boils down to, for me is not only cost but also reliable service. Living quite a way from Qld, and having to ship these panels up north just for a check up/service are simply not worth the effort. I will also start to hear the good wife going on about how I spend all this money, and things begin to fall apart and not work properly... just don't want to go there! Whereas ML is concerned, the service center and direct importer are all located right here in Melbourne, and our dealer mate from Class A audio, looks after his customer's very well. Therefore, the obvious choice would be the CLX.
As for now, I am fully content with what I have and what it can deliver to it's best ability. I have learned to be satisfied with the joy of knowing that there are good things along the way, and no matter what said, we must always remain humble and appreciative for what we have. Not many are so fortunate...
By the way, pops was so taken up by the CLX's that upon his next visit to Melb towards the end of 2018, rather than visit the new place, he figured to venture first towards Kosta's place, just to listen to the CLX's, and then head towards our place upon arrival- can't argue with that!
Cheers mate and have a wonderful time with those stats- they are a marvelous work of art!
RJ
All, absolute epiphany. UK Paul can corroborate.
I went to UK Paul's place (just outside London) to listen to his heavily modded Martin Logan spires with concert fidelity electronics. He has added Clarity and Duelunds to the crossovers, taken out the woofers from those boxes and placed them separately to the panel, and heavily damped the panel for vibration control.
Since liking Apogees I have found MLs thinner, less bodied and organic to the apogees. Recent demos at shows and dealers with all SS gear like Constellation have made them sound quite disappointing, thin, anemic, and a bit plastic like.
So after going to Paul's and listening to a few tracks, We first switched over to the Lampi. After trying 242 (too clean and overdrove his pre to distortion) and special 45s (which sounded a bit wispy in that set up), we settled on Kr audio PX25s - with them in, there was loads of energy, drive, full body to each instrument, great body and tone on strings, flutes, oboes, etc.
More importantly, the sound was denser, bass was deeper in stage - the tympani would really kick in from behind, and across the space. Bass should exist in space, not in a woofer inside a speaker. The speakers had merged into a plane instead of music coming each speaker separately. Much more space between the instruments yet dense. The baritone now had a chest like on an Apogee, instead of being lean in the 100 - 200hz region. There was fantastic decay adding to the musicality
With Cecilia Bartoli, Paul used the words "she is floating towards us like an angel" and "her noise floor is just so low". This was because even on softer passages, even at low volumes, there was a lot of drive, and microdynamic energy, that led to music swells and the music flow.
Bach Canata chorus staged perfectly with musical decay, and Gnomus was dynamic, energetic, well separated, with each instrument showing proper tone and decay. Old Castle had energy and drive even through the soft brass and wind movements, extremely involving.
When we shifted to Analog (Sony TS 8000 direct drive, restored by Paul, with an SAEC arm and Art 9 cart through the Allnic 3000 phono), the music again lacked a bit of drive and tone. I remember preferring Zesto to the stock Allnic 3000 (which just seemed to beautify the top), and Myles had then said that the Allnic phono is recti sensitive. I remembered that and realized my KR recti works in it, so we switched the recti, put in my KR Audio 5u4g. Boom! the magic was back - even better. Loads of drive, energy, bloom, body, decay, dynamics.
Bruch violin had better tone and the orchestra was more spread out, Emperor had more floor, explosiveness, and energy in the piano strikes, and Scheherazade 4th movement was just dynamic with excellent slams, speed, and drive, and front to back depth. When we played the below LP, there is a part where the performers clap in chorus...with the KR recti on, we felt like getting involved and clapping and joining in...with the stock recti and the Philips, it was just some distant music being played in a laid back fashion, without any drive, impact, or clarity or dimension.
Personally, this is my favorite (relatively) low budget medium room system, leaving out all out assaults and exotic giant speakers (Apogee Grands, Yamamuras, other big horns), probably slightly pipping Lissnr's apogee duetta system which has a slightly smaller room. I understand some room dimensions here and there as well as electronics changes can shift the balance, but used spires (with Ethos and Montis) are just so low cost and with easy resale, this is a no brainer. MLs along with Apogees are extremely sensitive to electronics and show very high variance that can make or break the system. The valve dac and phon with hybrid pre and 200w SS Concert fidelity amp worked perfect. So if you are listening to an ML at a show that is thin, anemic, lean, ignore it and walk away. It needs the density, then it sounds like ribbons but with more coherence and details. Here there was just total transparency, as if there was no speaker there, music coming from the walls, just front to back depth of the size of a small stage, properly proportional to the room. Yes, brass will have more density and grunt on ribbons and piano will have fuller tone, Kick drum and tympani like impact will be shockingly good on Apogees, and rock will be better on the ribbons too. But decay, coherence, details, and musicality is easier to get on this
This system is straight into my category of "yes, you can improve on this if you spend a lot more in the right room and if your effort clicks and all pieces fall together, but the majority might be better off just simply enjoying this set up". Nothing fancy with the room, just good length and width. There is even glass behind and an uneven front wall, yet that did not seem to matter.
I would really be interested in listening to a good valve CLX set up to see how it manages the bass without the hybrid woofer. Chatting with awsmone, one can bump up the mid bass by 3db in the crossover, he has 5 subs in a massive room, and runs them on valves. This calls for a Martin Logan deep dive.
I went to UK Paul's place (just outside London) to listen to his heavily modded Martin Logan spires with concert fidelity electronics. He has added Clarity and Duelunds to the crossovers, taken out the woofers from those boxes and placed them separately to the panel, and heavily damped the panel for vibration control.
Since liking Apogees I have found MLs thinner, less bodied and organic to the apogees. Recent demos at shows and dealers with all SS gear like Constellation have made them sound quite disappointing, thin, anemic, and a bit plastic like.
So after going to Paul's and listening to a few tracks, We first switched over to the Lampi. After trying 242 (too clean and overdrove his pre to distortion) and special 45s (which sounded a bit wispy in that set up), we settled on Kr audio PX25s - with them in, there was loads of energy, drive, full body to each instrument, great body and tone on strings, flutes, oboes, etc.
More importantly, the sound was denser, bass was deeper in stage - the tympani would really kick in from behind, and across the space. Bass should exist in space, not in a woofer inside a speaker. The speakers had merged into a plane instead of music coming each speaker separately. Much more space between the instruments yet dense. The baritone now had a chest like on an Apogee, instead of being lean in the 100 - 200hz region. There was fantastic decay adding to the musicality
With Cecilia Bartoli, Paul used the words "she is floating towards us like an angel" and "her noise floor is just so low". This was because even on softer passages, even at low volumes, there was a lot of drive, and microdynamic energy, that led to music swells and the music flow.
Bach Canata chorus staged perfectly with musical decay, and Gnomus was dynamic, energetic, well separated, with each instrument showing proper tone and decay. Old Castle had energy and drive even through the soft brass and wind movements, extremely involving.
When we shifted to Analog (Sony TS 8000 direct drive, restored by Paul, with an SAEC arm and Art 9 cart through the Allnic 3000 phono), the music again lacked a bit of drive and tone. I remember preferring Zesto to the stock Allnic 3000 (which just seemed to beautify the top), and Myles had then said that the Allnic phono is recti sensitive. I remembered that and realized my KR recti works in it, so we switched the recti, put in my KR Audio 5u4g. Boom! the magic was back - even better. Loads of drive, energy, bloom, body, decay, dynamics.
Bruch violin had better tone and the orchestra was more spread out, Emperor had more floor, explosiveness, and energy in the piano strikes, and Scheherazade 4th movement was just dynamic with excellent slams, speed, and drive, and front to back depth. When we played the below LP, there is a part where the performers clap in chorus...with the KR recti on, we felt like getting involved and clapping and joining in...with the stock recti and the Philips, it was just some distant music being played in a laid back fashion, without any drive, impact, or clarity or dimension.
Personally, this is my favorite (relatively) low budget medium room system, leaving out all out assaults and exotic giant speakers (Apogee Grands, Yamamuras, other big horns), probably slightly pipping Lissnr's apogee duetta system which has a slightly smaller room. I understand some room dimensions here and there as well as electronics changes can shift the balance, but used spires (with Ethos and Montis) are just so low cost and with easy resale, this is a no brainer. MLs along with Apogees are extremely sensitive to electronics and show very high variance that can make or break the system. The valve dac and phon with hybrid pre and 200w SS Concert fidelity amp worked perfect. So if you are listening to an ML at a show that is thin, anemic, lean, ignore it and walk away. It needs the density, then it sounds like ribbons but with more coherence and details. Here there was just total transparency, as if there was no speaker there, music coming from the walls, just front to back depth of the size of a small stage, properly proportional to the room. Yes, brass will have more density and grunt on ribbons and piano will have fuller tone, Kick drum and tympani like impact will be shockingly good on Apogees, and rock will be better on the ribbons too. But decay, coherence, details, and musicality is easier to get on this
This system is straight into my category of "yes, you can improve on this if you spend a lot more in the right room and if your effort clicks and all pieces fall together, but the majority might be better off just simply enjoying this set up". Nothing fancy with the room, just good length and width. There is even glass behind and an uneven front wall, yet that did not seem to matter.
I would really be interested in listening to a good valve CLX set up to see how it manages the bass without the hybrid woofer. Chatting with awsmone, one can bump up the mid bass by 3db in the crossover, he has 5 subs in a massive room, and runs them on valves. This calls for a Martin Logan deep dive.
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I am sure I would like very much Paul's system!
This is an interesting report Kedar, but a bit puzzling. You have been down the MartinLogan road before, and you came to your conclusion about them versus Apogees.
I feel that I traveled very far down the same road and achieved the sound you heard at Paul's using the VTL MB-750s and Prodigys with REL subwoofer fronted by Io and TNT Mk. IV and Benz Ruby 2 for 18 years (high power tube amps + all tubes bloomy phono pre-amp + warm and rich midrange-centric cartridge). That system, to my ears, created the density and deep bass and transparency and disappearing act you heard at Paul's.
Respectfully I feel that maybe you gave up and drove off of that MartinLogan road prematurely?
At the end of the day I still came to similar conclusions as you, but less strongly. Ultimately I decided I was willing to trade an iota of ML transparency for the slightly greater density and tone of ribbons.
I predict you will never be able to achieve the sound you want (or which you heard at Paul's) with CLXs unaugmented with stereo subwoofers. (I know RJ will strongly disagree with me on this.
Even with external subwoofers I believe you would find the CLX to be lacking power and density and realism in the 100 Hz or so to 200 Hz or so frequency range (i.e., above subwoofer augmentation range). See MartinLogan Neolith, post #64:
I never loved the full-range CLS or the CLX because I find them to be too lacking in dynamics and impact in the 200 to 400 Hz range. I don't know anything about musical instruments so I do not know exactly what goes on in that frequency range, but, to my ears, something important and impactful and realism-creating goes on there.
With the CLX I was missing warmth and impact in that frequency range. I have learned that I prefer a hybrid speaker system in which the panel crosses over to an integrated cone at a higher frequency than the frequency at which a full-range panel (i.e., the CLX) would cross over to external subwoofers.
This explains why I like the Prodigys, which have two 10” cones crossed over at 250 to 400 Hz. This also explains why I liked the Statement E2, whose panel crossed over to eight 7” cone drivers at up to 200 Hz.
This is an interesting report Kedar, but a bit puzzling. You have been down the MartinLogan road before, and you came to your conclusion about them versus Apogees.
I feel that I traveled very far down the same road and achieved the sound you heard at Paul's using the VTL MB-750s and Prodigys with REL subwoofer fronted by Io and TNT Mk. IV and Benz Ruby 2 for 18 years (high power tube amps + all tubes bloomy phono pre-amp + warm and rich midrange-centric cartridge). That system, to my ears, created the density and deep bass and transparency and disappearing act you heard at Paul's.
Respectfully I feel that maybe you gave up and drove off of that MartinLogan road prematurely?
At the end of the day I still came to similar conclusions as you, but less strongly. Ultimately I decided I was willing to trade an iota of ML transparency for the slightly greater density and tone of ribbons.
I predict you will never be able to achieve the sound you want (or which you heard at Paul's) with CLXs unaugmented with stereo subwoofers. (I know RJ will strongly disagree with me on this.
Even with external subwoofers I believe you would find the CLX to be lacking power and density and realism in the 100 Hz or so to 200 Hz or so frequency range (i.e., above subwoofer augmentation range). See MartinLogan Neolith, post #64:
I never loved the full-range CLS or the CLX because I find them to be too lacking in dynamics and impact in the 200 to 400 Hz range. I don't know anything about musical instruments so I do not know exactly what goes on in that frequency range, but, to my ears, something important and impactful and realism-creating goes on there.
With the CLX I was missing warmth and impact in that frequency range. I have learned that I prefer a hybrid speaker system in which the panel crosses over to an integrated cone at a higher frequency than the frequency at which a full-range panel (i.e., the CLX) would cross over to external subwoofers.
This explains why I like the Prodigys, which have two 10” cones crossed over at 250 to 400 Hz. This also explains why I liked the Statement E2, whose panel crossed over to eight 7” cone drivers at up to 200 Hz.
Hi Ron, I gave up ML more because of boredom. At that time I hadn't really looked out and wanted CLX, sound labs, (neither of which were heard, just aspirational, as were dCS and trinity at that time lol), analysis, tune audio Anima, and multichannel. Also, my room is not big enough to do full orchestral with summits. I would need at least 3 feet more space if not more. And I was a bit bored of sitting in one place while listening to music, though if I change to a more downward firing room like Paul's that will be less off an issue. I am am intense audiophile on the days of the week I travel, but I hate being confined to a spot on a daily basis.
I had heard other Summit X systems then, with AR 610, 75, Krell, Levinson, MSB amps, and even Devialet. I then chose Analysis, soon was struck by many horns and the might of the big Apogees.
The FR and the grands are still breath taking, but way out of reach due to room size and amp and power requirements.
But I think these MLs can do a lot to be better options to duetta and scintilla especially in terms of sonics balanced by pragmatism, and great resale.
To others, I did text Ron after my visit from Paul's that his Aesthetix IO prodigy combo will be tough to beat.
I had heard other Summit X systems then, with AR 610, 75, Krell, Levinson, MSB amps, and even Devialet. I then chose Analysis, soon was struck by many horns and the might of the big Apogees.
The FR and the grands are still breath taking, but way out of reach due to room size and amp and power requirements.
But I think these MLs can do a lot to be better options to duetta and scintilla especially in terms of sonics balanced by pragmatism, and great resale.
To others, I did text Ron after my visit from Paul's that his Aesthetix IO prodigy combo will be tough to beat.
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Kedar, I am glad you got to listen to Paul's modified Logans!
He and I were lusting over each other's ML modifications years ago at the martinloganowners.com site. From the stock Logans I have heard, including the CLX with subs but not the Neolith, I can safely say there is NOTHING coming out of the factory that would compare to our modified speakers. In fact, I hate to say this, but I just finished tweaking the bass crossover and sub integration, after probably 7+ years. I strongly suspect Paul's Spires are better than my Logans. I was going to point you to his thread on MLO, but I can't see his images - and if you were to see them, your jaw would drop on the floor at the engineering quality of his work, and I have seen nothing like that come out of the factory. Perhaps he can post them here as well.
Just beautiful stuff!
He and I were lusting over each other's ML modifications years ago at the martinloganowners.com site. From the stock Logans I have heard, including the CLX with subs but not the Neolith, I can safely say there is NOTHING coming out of the factory that would compare to our modified speakers. In fact, I hate to say this, but I just finished tweaking the bass crossover and sub integration, after probably 7+ years. I strongly suspect Paul's Spires are better than my Logans. I was going to point you to his thread on MLO, but I can't see his images - and if you were to see them, your jaw would drop on the floor at the engineering quality of his work, and I have seen nothing like that come out of the factory. Perhaps he can post them here as well.
Just beautiful stuff!
I understand. That all makes sense and is consistent.
I agree the MLs need to be several feet into the room from the front wall. Playing with the reflected wave by adjusting the front wall to speaker distance, I think, is a critical piece of the ML puzzle.
It also makes sense to me that you can achieve most of the sound quality capability of the MLs with less aggravation and more pragmatism than it takes to achieve most of the sound quality capability of the Apogees.
I absolutely loved my all tube, all analog, Prodigy system for 18 years! If I had not embarked upon my current effort I would've been happy with that system literally for the rest of my life. I would have switched to stereo subwoofers and put a Herzan under the Io, but that would've been about it.
ack, I wonder whether you might quantify a few points that you have recently made in response to bonzo's excellent review of Pauls system.
Have you spent time with the recently released ESL13A or ESL15A models either in your own system or under very well set up private or dealer conditions? as many Logan owners and now Kedar can attest, depending on all the many variables ML's may perform from poorly through to the phenomenal with everything in between.
We're the factory CLX's you heard sporting the older generation Descent Subs or the Latest generation BF210/BF212? As still currently the owner of the former the BF series in my friends CLX system are notably improved in all areas ergo when running the subs so are his factory CLX's.
Whilst I enjoy reading about after marked modifications I do find it slightly disingenuous to compare modified equipment, often extensively as in yours and Pauls case, with stock factory products, which should we follow the local may in almost all circumstances benefit from extensive modification themselves, I cannot see the point other than perhaps comparing the exact same models of ML speaker..
http://http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-and-exotics/179196-martin-logan-clx-mods.html
Have you spent time with the recently released ESL13A or ESL15A models either in your own system or under very well set up private or dealer conditions? as many Logan owners and now Kedar can attest, depending on all the many variables ML's may perform from poorly through to the phenomenal with everything in between.
We're the factory CLX's you heard sporting the older generation Descent Subs or the Latest generation BF210/BF212? As still currently the owner of the former the BF series in my friends CLX system are notably improved in all areas ergo when running the subs so are his factory CLX's.
Whilst I enjoy reading about after marked modifications I do find it slightly disingenuous to compare modified equipment, often extensively as in yours and Pauls case, with stock factory products, which should we follow the local may in almost all circumstances benefit from extensive modification themselves, I cannot see the point other than perhaps comparing the exact same models of ML speaker..
http://http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-and-exotics/179196-martin-logan-clx-mods.html
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