Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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My understanding is they use ultra pure copper alloyed with rare earth elements but why not just read what they say on their website - http://www.masterbuiltaudio.com/technology

Generally speaking in regards to your comments about the relevance of CERN & aerospace applications etc., being an engineer like you, I can appreciate that the deep experience the MB folks gained in designing cables for ultra low reactance and very low noise & distortion (shielding), would be directly applicable to designing cables for audio. I've never heard or read (through VSA or the new MB website) that they use the same cable formulations for audio as they did for those other applications - simply that they gained a lot of insight into the constituent elements of cable/shielding design for very demanding applications and applied that knowledge to their designs of audio cables.

As you'll note on their website, they applied their scientific approach specifically to the design of their audio cables but also augmented this with blind ABX testing and feedback from folks in the industry using their cables with various equipment and speakers.

While I appreciate a scientific view and skepticism, I think perhaps folks are taking some of the (mostly anecdotal) information too literally - I've personally tried to get details about the construction and alloys used in these cables but the MB folks are not disclosing this as it is highly proprietary information (as anyone can appreciate). The other factor with MB is that they have access to test equipment that can measure extremely low levels of reactance and distortion - I don't know for a fact, but I would guess that most other cable manufacturers out there don't have access to the same test equipment as the cost of these is not justified if you are just building audio cables. This is another bleed-over form their work in the aerospace industry.

Cheers, Joe

Yes, I've read the Technology section, and that's how it all started last week. Moreover, I found the source of Amir's quote, plus a little more information about this aerospace connection - see http://dimfshifi.com/index.php/master-built/

Master-Built cables are designed and fabricated by a subsidiary of Delphi Aerospace. These cable use lab-grade Single-Crystal laboratory-grade copper solid core wire with aerospace shielding, Pat. Pend noise reduction technology; and German or Japanese made hi-purity plugs. The Standard and Signature cables use Teflon shielding for super clean high frequency response.

The new Ultra Extreme alloy was developed during a contract with CERN to provide a “super conductivity” cable with close-to-zero resistance and/or signal loss; this alloy was used in the Large Hadron Collider. The new S-C alloy is available as speaker or interconnects only and will be available until the current supply of alloy runs out.

The last highlighted sentence - "to provide a super conductivity cable" - is simply absurd. FWIW, you can guess how much respect I have left for those making these claims. At least they put "super conductivity" in quotes, but wow, what a claim.
 

kernelbob

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2011
102
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What is MB cable swap priority when changing just one cable? Source - preamplifier - speaker?

The first MasterBuilt Ultra cablesI had (the first prototype) was a two meter XLR pair. I installed them between my DAC and preamp just because it seemed logical. I never moved it. The rest of my cables and power cords were MB Signature.

That one set of ICs made a huge improvement in the sound, convincing me to eventually get a full set of Ultra ICs and SCs a couple of years later, keeping the Signature PCs.

Best,
Robert
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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something he doesn't understand Joe but you are right on in your assessment
Help me here Steve. When I first met you and decided to create this forum, you would repeatedly tell me that you don't believe in cables making a difference. And that you had spent your money on that but that was the past. Did a quick search and you indeed said the same in public here in 2010: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?327-The-Great-Cable-Debate

Having read with interest the brief bio put up on our site by Audioguy re the late John Dunlavy it got me remembering John's famous article on Cable Nonsense

I am on record as being cable neutral. I am content with my Nordost Valhalla IC's, power cords and speaker cables having owned many of the high end cables. Re-reading John's dissertation re cables should give everyone (regardless of the camp they are in) pause to reflect on his findings

A few years later you said you changed your mind and Shunyata was the reason. You swore by them and introduced me to the good folks there.

Then last year you started to advocate cheap cables that ddk/David uses after visiting him.

Now, I see praise for MB cables after visiting the good people who use that.

What is it that I need to understand about reliability and durability of your cable observations given this set of events? If you were me you would put a lot or little weight on it?
 

kernelbob

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2011
102
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Seriously, I am just surprised Steve has moved on from Shunyata after so much praise for it in the past.

I also had Shunyata Python and Anaconda CX power cords and was very happy with them. However, the MasterBuilt power cords were in an entirely different league. I still have the Shunyatas, but use them in less critial positions, for example powering the amps in my VSA XS-15 subwoofers.

I still remember the immediately obvious improvement when I switched in the MB's and powered on the first of a pair of monoblock amps. Just standing between the speakers at the amp, the difference was striking.

Just goes to show, "you don't know what you don't know".

Robert
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
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NSW Australia
Help me here Steve. When I first met you and decided to create this forum, you would repeatedly tell me that you don't believe in cables making a difference.
Sometimes, it's just a bit of, "whatever works!!". I've used or tried silly things over the years, just because it made a difference - first, get a positive effect from the variation in the system; second, understand what's really going on; third, implement the smartest, best value for money method of achieving that benefit ...
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Help me here Steve. When I first met you and decided to create this forum, you would repeatedly tell me that you don't believe in cables making a difference. And that you had spent your money on that but that was the past. Did a quick search and you indeed said the same in public here in 2010: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?327-The-Great-Cable-Debate

A few years later you said you changed your mind and Shunyata was the reason. You swore by them and introduced me to the good folks there.

Then last year you started to advocate cheap cables that ddk/David uses after visiting him.

Now, I see praise for MB cables after visiting the good people who use that.

What is it that I need to understand about reliability and durability of your cable observations given this set of events? If you were me you would put a lot or little weight on it?

Can I ask what is the purpose of this post?

Are you going to google in WBF all the equipment changes of members to question their opinion reliability and durability? Please note my signature needs upgrading! :)

And yes, I think Steve still has a lot to tell us about his choice and, as usual, will do it in interesting and enjoyable posts that will also enlighten us about his preferences and how these new cables match them.
 

mountainjoe

Industry Expert
Mar 25, 2015
168
74
260
Bay Area, California
eigenaudio.com
Yes, I've read the Technology section, and that's how it all started last week. Moreover, I found the source of Amir's quote, plus a little more information about this aerospace connection - see http://dimfshifi.com/index.php/master-built/



The last highlighted sentence - "to provide a super conductivity cable" - is simply absurd. FWIW, you can guess how much respect I have left for those making these claims. At least they put "super conductivity" in quotes, but wow, what a claim.

Hi ack - thanks for the link - I hadn't seen this website nor this page.

The way I read it they put "super conductivity" in quotes, which to me says to take that term as more of a marketing claim than a technical one (or at least it should be taken with a grain of salt). They also mention "with close-to-zero resistance and/or signal loss" - this to me means not superconducting as that achieves non-measurable resistance (i.e. as close to zero resistance as we can determine). I think it's rather an attempt to reduce resistance as much as possible (at room temp) compared to standard wire technology.

That's of course my own interpretation of the wording - and colored by the direct discussions I've had with Albert and Leif - they never at any time suggested that these cables were superconducting and I would be as skeptical as you if they did.

Cheers,
 

kernelbob

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2011
102
103
948
The thing I've found is you can't imagine better sound than the best that you've heard so that is always your baseline until you hear something better.

Yes Joe, I've tried to describe that using a graphic analogy. Think of the best audio system you've ever heard as an asymptote and you make individual improvements in your system to gradually improve it's performance to approach that asymptote ever more closely. It seems that the closer you get, the more expensive each remaining increment becomes. Think of how an object's mass increases as it approaches the speed of light and take more energy to accellerate further, but I digress. Then, back in our quest, you come across something that completely raises the target asymptote to a new level. That's the experience I had when I heard the first pair of Ultra interconnects.

That difference that I'm describing isn't hyperbole (defined as "an obvious and intentional exaggeration"). From the feedback from other owners, it is a common reaction.

Robert
 

kernelbob

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2011
102
103
948
The way I read it they put "super conductivity" in quotes, which to me says to take that term as more of a marketing claim than a technical one.

Yes, that is exactly the point. Trust me, the MasterBuilt engineers know that the cables aren't superconductive. They, like many of the posters here who own or have heard them, struggle to find metaphors to describe their characteristics. Chasing the the words "super conductivity" in quotes is a straw man argument. The composition of the cables is also not identical to what is used in CERN. The composition, configuration, and conformation of the cables are from the ground up designed for audio signals.

Robert
 

mountainjoe

Industry Expert
Mar 25, 2015
168
74
260
Bay Area, California
eigenaudio.com
Yes Joe, I've tried to describe that using a graphic analogy. Think of the best audio system you've ever heard as an asymptote and you make individual improvements in your system to gradually improve it's performance to approach that asymptote ever more closely. It seems that the closer you get, the more expensive each remaining increment becomes. Think of how an object's mass increases as it approaches the speed of light and take more energy to accellerate further, but I digress. Then, back in our quest, you come across something that completely raises the target asymptote to a new level. That's the experience I had when I heard the first pair of Ultra interconnects.

That difference that I'm describing isn't hyperbole (defined as "an obvious and intentional exaggeration"). From the feedback from other owners, it is a common reaction.

Robert

Hi Bob - well said. :cool:
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
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NSW Australia
Yes, that is exactly the point. Trust me, the MasterBuilt engineers know that the cables aren't superconductive. They, like many of the posters here who own or have heard them, struggle to find metaphors to describe their characteristics. Chasing the the words "super conductivity" in quotes is a straw man argument. The composition of the cables is also not identical to what is used in CERN. The composition, configuration, and conformation of the cables are from the ground up designed for audio signals.

Robert
Their characteristic is that they very effectively reduce certain types of distortion and noise that most systems have, which is difficult to eradicate by other, conventional means. So, they are allowing the intrinsic quality of the system they're in to show through - can't ask for much more than that ...
 

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the heads up on these cables. Genuinely interested to hear more about them as they seem to have flown under the radar a bit and their background in other non-audio technology sounds quite fascinating. Glad they are proving a great experience for you. Hyperbole is just expressing enthusiasm so is perfectly valuable in this passionate hobby. If you are genuinely excited that is a data point. Not sure why we should constrain ourself in sharing happiness honestly.

Just as a guide in terms of a costs (without getting too specific) for the MB Ultra are we roughly talking in the ballpark of Nordost Odin territory or are we at perhaps even more than that.

Also it was a bit brave and optimistic to think that you could just start a thread like this asking for people's specific experiences with the cables only and that we avoid the usual attendant flat earth debate and any off topic noise. Nice try.
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
Hello All,

The MB Ultra cables are very close to Odin 2 pricing. I believe MB is a little under. The Signature line is roughly half the price of the Ultra. If anyone has any questions your welcome to call or email me.

Leif
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,521
10,687
3,515
USA
Help me here Steve. When I first met you and decided to create this forum, you would repeatedly tell me that you don't believe in cables making a difference. And that you had spent your money on that but that was the past. Did a quick search and you indeed said the same in public here in 2010: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?327-The-Great-Cable-Debate



A few years later you said you changed your mind and Shunyata was the reason. You swore by them and introduced me to the good folks there.

Then last year you started to advocate cheap cables that ddk/David uses after visiting him.

Now, I see praise for MB cables after visiting the good people who use that.

What is it that I need to understand about reliability and durability of your cable observations given this set of events? If you were me you would put a lot or little weight on it?

I can try to help out. Remember how a former member praised a new DAC called the NADAC with HQPlayer and how quad DSD was the most accurate copy of the original master tape that was possible, or some such thing? A few people raved that it was the best, and not particularly expensive by high end standards, and the speculation was that this was the future of audio, here and now. Well, that was then. I wonder what happened. People must have moved on and found the next best thing that became the future of audio.

If that is not convincing, then perhaps it is as simple as finding something new that sounds better in one's system, reassessing past assumptions and enthusiastically sharing the discovery with friends on a member based forum. I'm sure if one does a complete history check of my past posts, he will find posts riddled with inconsistencies, contradictions, and embarrassing pronouncements, and a few examples of someone learning something new and changing his mind. Such is life.
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
3,076
774
1,700
Mass
Hello All,

The MB Ultra cables are very close to Odin 2 pricing. I believe MB is a little under. The Signature line is roughly half the price of the Ultra. If anyone has any questions your welcome to call or email me.

Leif

How many cables do you have to lend out as demos, Leif? I can see a lot of people ringing you up asking to try these...
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
How many cables do you have to lend out as demos, Leif? I can see a lot of people ringing you up asking to try these...

Yes it has already started. We are investing in more demo sets. Most of our demos are making their way around to dealers. Best to email me or call so I can get a better idea of how many cables are needed and which line they may be interested in.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
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435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
I have no personal experience with any Master Built speaker cables, not because I cannot afford them but for other reasons.
So normally I shouldn't post in this thread, but looking @ other members who also have no experience with them either, I don't feel too much out of place.

Talking prices seem to be taboo, better use the underground channels; sounds almost like that to me, but that's fine because we're talking serious money here, serious business; sound improvement over other inferior cables that aren't neutral and transparent, and yet are very expensive.

I did research online from various sources; forums, advertisements, VS website, reviews, ...brief I am more equipped with info now than previously.
I've also read scientific audio articles on cable's sound differences. There are differences indeed; we all know that.
We have several threads already right here on resistance.

What I think has no value without real first hand experience, so I'm not thinking. :b
I'm here to learn, from people who have first hand experience, like Steve for example.
I also appreciate learning from the manufacturer.

I have accumulated few articles on speaker cables' measurements, and with differences. But it's the Master Built speaker cables that I want to see those measurements from and with numbers/graphs. And of course from the listening evaluations, like from this one for example, @ Audiogon:

Review: Master Built by Dephi subsidiary Signature Speaker cable
Category: Cables

Master Built Signature Cables Review

You may not believe what I am about to tell you, because I barely do and I am listening first-hand. I was willing to accept that wire (above high quality but non-stratospheric) made a small difference in mega systems, but that it was probably not as important in normal systems as a serious upgrade to preamp or source.

I heard many power cords, interconnects and speaker cables, in the $500 to $1,500 range and auditioned and purchased many CD transports, preamps (tube and solid state) and amplifiers. Using live acoustic music and a grand piano in the same room with the system as reference, I finally had my system to a very nice place where all commented that it was clean, clear, resolving without harshness, and involving. It should be noted that I am blessed with very clean power. I am the only house on the outside transformer and the system is wired into a panel separate entirely from the main house.

When asking Albert Von Schweikert (distributer for these cables) for help in deciding what’s next, with me considering new amps, and possible subwoofers, he suggested that I try wiring my system completely with the Master Built Signature series. Having learned to trust him, and the generous return policy – I assented and he sent three power cords, one balanced IC and a set of biwire speaker cables, already broken in.

I used two CD’s compiled with all my reference tracks spanning orchestral, classical solo (particularly piano and violin), jazz, pop, and rock. Immediately I noticed sound that was about 5% cleaner and clearer, with 10% more air, bloom, and a better sound stage. But the “HOLY COW!” part was that the music was at least 25% more natural and 50% more liquid. As days passed, I used torture tests: harpsichord, harmonica, organ, brass, woodwind, strings, and percussion all were realistic and wonderful. I tried Metallica and Led Zeppelin to make sure that the liquidity was not artificial and when the music was supposed to be driving and edgy – it was in spades. Yet lovely and liquid music was more so than I have ever heard on any system. Piano which is both liquid and percussive with wood, string, and felt-hammer timbre was spot on.

The overall presentation is shockingly better and more natural. Timbral density and attack/decay at the very high and low frequency extremes is greatly enhanced. Also lowest level detail such as the variations in in-breath for singers from one phrase to another is more naturally apparent – adding greatly to the excitement and realness of the performance. As I relax into listening, the feeling of enjoyment is very close to the best vinyl rigs in density, richness, and naturalness but with the strengths of digital. When I open my eyes the sense of of the singers and instrumentalists being in the room with you actually increases, speaking to a big increase in presence without any forwardness. This is more than a significant equipment upgrade – it is equivalent to an entire system upgrade! It is substantially better than the changes noticed when I auditioned equipment at four times the current prices of my stuff. I would encourage an audition for people with revealing systems at any price. The investment, while significant is likely to produce more significant satisfaction than any other change you could make.

Associated gear
Equipment:
Ayon CD5’s with 1980 NOS Reflector tubes (Transport, DAC and preamp combined). Nuforce Reference 9 V3SE monoamps (highly modded with on/off and fuse circuits removed, Furtech IEC, Mosaic boxes on top and mass-loaded with lead bags, isolated mechanically and electrically). Von Schweikert VR5 Anniversary MK2 speakers.

Similar products
I heard and owned many power cords, interconnects and speaker cables, in the $500 to $1,500 range, including Guerrilla Audio, Morrow Audio SP6, Gold Silkworms, Audio Horizons Reference IC

gammajo | 10-28-2013 8:54pm

_________

Like I said, I'm here to learn. And I go everywhere online for that; AudioCircle, AudioKarma, AudiophileReview, StereosAbout, PositiveFeedback, TheAbso!uteSound, Stereophile, HeadFi, etc., etc., etc.
If I find owner's reviews that are of interest I'll post the links. So that way we are open to the entire planet of the Internet, because open minded people they have expanded horizons.

Last, personally I have no vested interest other than learning from the Masters and real life demonstrations. Only in search of the truth, and I know that the truth is often what we don't expect or want to hear. But it's always the best, because only then can we truly advance in our life's quests.
The balance is in our hands.
 

gammajo

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2013
33
1
140
NC
www.SyncCreation.com
Amirm - I hesitate to jump in on this because it is not my area of expertise, so VSA or Masterbuilt may answer more cogently. But what I understand is that they were not aiming for a superconductor at low temp but rather greatly increased conductivity (super conductivity may be a sloppy term here) at room temp. To that end I was told that under microscope even six 9's copper looks like Swiss cheese in terms of the gaps in material that then necessitates electrons jumping these gaps. Somehow the metallurgy of the ULTRA is allowing electrons to pass with much less turbulence. This is but one feature among many including excellent rare earth shielding. Since they will understandably keep much of what they do proprietary, I rely on my own ears, and the reports of fellow audio travelers that have heard many cables at all prices including higher and have opted for Masterbuilt. I surely subscribe to YMMV and an audition in your system being the way to decide.
 

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