Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
In my zeal to discuss MB cables and how they sounded in my system I seem to have opened a hornet's nest as I posted my findings in my system blog. The problem was that many MB owners who were lurking in the wings all expressed great comments in my blog however the "Hyperbole Police" lead by my partner Ron Resnick along with some doubters have raised questions about these cables. Rather than discussing them in my system blog I thought I would start a thread here asking for comments from existing MB owners as to what differences they heard in their systems after installing MB cables

My experience with the cable has caused me to interject some hyperbole but honestly one has to hear the cables in their system to appreciate the changes and of course as they say YMMV and all that other stuff


For my ears the change in my bass response was an immediate and noticeable change. My amps are 32 wpc class A SET and although the bass previously was very good it wasn't in the big leagues. When this cable went in both Leif and I looked at one another as we both had the same WTF moment. There is also top end detail on these cables as well that I just have never heard before as well. The change however is full spectrum as the micro detail fills in all the empty space.

For my ears the dynamic range, the decay, the resonance, ambient sound and timber were better than I have ever heard in my system as when I compare it to what I have used before

Finally these cables IMO are about as neutral as any cable I have ever heard. They add nothing and when listening there is nothing jumping out at you saying "listen to what I can do here"

The fact that I had to lower the gain on my preamp from levels that I was previously accustomed to listening suggested to me that this is a better cable but also what I removed was restricted and rolled off at the top and bottom end. These cables are also more extended than any I have previously used.

As JackD201 said so wisely it is difficult to enter a cable thread thumping one's chest without a "show me it's so" comment

For this reason I thought it would be better to start this thread and have members comment accordingly. BTW, I have no desires to get into a measurements debate or DBT or whatever. There is another audio forum locally that seems hell bent on doing those things so I am going to suggest ABX and DBT all be dealt with there if there are those so inclined to do such

So what are other users hearing or am I going to face the hyperbole police alone :)
 

still-one

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I believe that certain cables have the ability to get us closer to the sound we are looking for. With cables (as with most other components) I always want to A/B them in my set-up. It is unfortunate that there is no local dealer (or The Cable Co) that I can do this with in these cables.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I believe that certain cables have the ability to get us closer to the sound we are looking for. With cables (as with most other components) I always want to A/B them in my set-up. It is unfortunate that there is no local dealer (or The Cable Co) that I can do this with in these cables.

Call Leif and have him send you a pair of IC's from your CD player to your preamp
 

microstrip

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Call Leif and have him send you a pair of IC's from your CD player to your preamp

What is MB cable swap priority when changing just one cable? Source - preamplifier - speaker?
 

still-one

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Call Leif and have him send you a pair of IC's from your CD player to your preamp

Steve, thanks. I wil contact him tomorrow. Do you think that the connection from the 808 to the pre will be that noticeable?
 
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Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I wish I knew Jim. In my case I think the pop that I heard was due not only to the MB cables I inserted but so also to the cables I removed. I guess it is a try it and see. Leif was terrific in taking the time to explain things to me. They are very cordial and can explain better than I
 

gammajo

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Oct 28, 2013
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Microstrip - I found that starting with the IC between preamp and amp(s) gave me great bang for the buck. This was advised by VSA because it is a lower signal than for SC. That said I already have great power (own transformer on pole serving only my home + dedicated lines. If my power was dirty I might start with PC to the preamp.
 

gammajo

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Oct 28, 2013
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Steve, So that you are not hanging out in hypebole land all by yourself I am repeating what I said on your system blog here.

Commenting context: I have had a full loom of Masterbuilt with all Signature PC and Ultra IC and Ultra SC since March 2016. Equipment is Von Schweikert VR 55 Aktive speakers wired internally with Masterbuilt Signature, Ayon CD5s with NOS tubes, and Nuforce Reference 20 mono amps. I am a classically trained amateur pianist and used a 7 foot Grand Piano in the same room for reference as to what live music sounds like as well as auditory memory from many concerts. Also, I am a psychologist wary of placebo effects. I have no financial relationship with with VSA or Masterbuilt. Since installing the Masterbuilt loom I have changed nothing in my system for what is for me a long while, having reached a level, particularly with solo piano and large orchestral music (which having been the most challenging)that is finally extremely satisfying.

This is part of my initial and later impressions as I upgraded from Signature to Ultra speaker cables which I hope will give a taste of my experience with these excellent cables:
In the first hour of play, the Ultras seemed less relaxed, liquid, open, and warm which I attributed to break in. Yet I immediately noticed the bass (particularly deep bass) sounded and physically felt more dynamic. It was fuller with better differentiation of tone and timing cues. For example soft background drum strikes could now be heard as hitting slightly different parts of the drum head and what I thought before was a uniform beat could now be heard as perhaps a half tone alternation of frequency and slight variations in loudness to maintain the beat. Thus rhythm and timing were better conveyed. Double bass string and wood were better conveyed and all bass had more punch and finesse.

Other enhancements were much more subtle - they did not jump out but unfolded as I relaxed and enjoyed the music. These included cleaner definition, a substantial increase in air, and clearer positioning of instruments within the sound stage. I newly noticed very faint sounds such as the shift of musicians position right before playing as they approached their instrument, I could more easily hear shifts in my equipment's warm up cycle, soft massed strings deep in the background sounded more differentiated, lively, and life-like, massed strings that before tended to sound a bit smeared sounded clearer. where the recording allowed there was a dramatic increase in depth.

Approaching the twenty hour mark I noticed that grand scale music such as full organ sounded grander and better grounded in the bass, and beautiful lyrical music sounded even more gorgeous and lilting. The pieces I was playing felt shorter than usual in the sense that I would be absorbed in them and then surprised to hear that they were ending - this has never happened to me before in auditioning any system change. There was also a sense of being drawn deeper into the musical field and the story being created by the players, and a better sense of the players and their personalities if you will, not just instruments.

Again all these changes except the killer bass and the amazing expansion of the soundstage air and depth, were very subtle because the Signatures are already so excellent. Yet taken as gestalt the effect was a substantial increase in feeling that you were at a live performance and being invited to be swept away with the music rather than by the music - if that makes sense. Paradoxically given that the bass was much fuller yet better defined, the whole of the music felt much more nimble and airy in the way that live music sounds

As the Ultras relax and open they are soaring in a straight line towards perfection. They do not seem cool, rather dead-on-neutral. I suspect that what you will hear is mostly what your other equipment is capable of and this may be a good bit more quality than you thought, given that with Ultra you are removing so much distortion from the system. If you want a touch of warmth or forgiveness of any harshness, the copper Signatures may be better, for example with a computer front end and mid solid state. And the Signature cable is indeed stellar in its own right. But with most turntables (I suspect), with very high quality digital, and with my tubed Ayon preamp, there is a natural warmth conveyed. In any case all this enhanced detail is never glassy, hard, harsh, peaked, or at the expense of the organic wholeness and balance of the music. It just sounds like a clearer window. At this point you would have to pry the Ultra out of my cold dead hands!

Update - My wife has been in Hawaii for two weeks as a balance to my stereo purchases. Meanwhile I have played my system nearly non stop, putting many hours on my new Ultra speaker cables, so thought I would post a follow-up.
The Ultras, great out of the box, continue to improve. They became more open, relaxed, and liquid. I have been working through many recordings that I have not played in a long time, and about a third of them surprise me with shockingly new levels of sound stage depth with the Ultras. Other recordings are revealing delights in new found micro detail particularly in the highs yet still with no etch, grain, or over-prominence. Bass also continues to improve in impact and definition, enough so that I turned down the bass adjustment of my 55's a touch compared to when using the Signature cables. I am happy enough with the Ultra to consider this a substantial system upgrade which I judge to beat any currently contemplated upgrade to pre-amp or amp, and so I boxed up my Signatures to ship back to VSA as part of the trade upwards.

My past context with wire in my own system is not extensive. Have used Analysis Plus, John Praytor's top line Gold IC, Guerilla Audio, Morrow Audio SP6 among others.
Hope this helps!
Joe
 

amirm

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Whatever this cable does, is not what its manufacturer thinks it does. This is what they say:

"The new Ultra Extreme alloy was developed during a contract with CERN to provide a “super conductivity” cable with close-to-zero resistance and/or signal loss; this alloy was used in the Large Hadron Collider."

LHC has a site dedicated to their superconductors: http://lhc-machine-outreach.web.cern.ch/lhc-machine-outreach/components/cable.htm

"Copper is an insulation material between the filaments in the superconductive state, when the temperature is below -263C. When leaving the superconductive state, copper acts as a conductor transferring the electric current and the heat. Niobium-titanium is an superconducting alloy."

Translating into English, normal conductors increase their resistivity as you lower temperatures. Hence the reason copper becomes an insulator at -9 deg. Kelvin.

Superconducting material such as Niobium-titanium however, suddenly enter a state where they lose all resistance and hence become superconductors. They are used to build powerful magnets to accelerate particles at LHC/CERN.

Our interest is of course room temperature. At room temp, the reverse of all this happens. Niobium-titanium at room temp has 20 times higher resistance than copper! Let me repeat: Niobium-titanium has twenty times higher resistance than ordinary copper.

So clearly they have their wires crossed at MB if they think making such statements actually hold water, pun intended. :) What they produce better not be a superconductor....
 

microstrip

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Whatever this cable does, is not what its manufacturer thinks it does. This is what they say:

"The new Ultra Extreme alloy was developed during a contract with CERN to provide a “super conductivity” cable with close-to-zero resistance and/or signal loss; this alloy was used in the Large Hadron Collider."

LHC has a site dedicated to their superconductors: http://lhc-machine-outreach.web.cern.ch/lhc-machine-outreach/components/cable.htm

"Copper is an insulation material between the filaments in the superconductive state, when the temperature is below -263C. When leaving the superconductive state, copper acts as a conductor transferring the electric current and the heat. Niobium-titanium is an superconducting alloy."

Translating into English, normal conductors increase their resistivity as you lower temperatures. Hence the reason copper becomes an insulator at -9 deg. Kelvin.

Superconducting material such as Niobium-titanium however, suddenly enter a state where they lose all resistance and hence become superconductors. They are used to build powerful magnets to accelerate particles at LHC/CERN.

Our interest is of course room temperature. At room temp, the reverse of all this happens. Niobium-titanium at room temp has 20 times higher resistance than copper! Let me repeat: Niobium-titanium has twenty times higher resistance than ordinary copper.

So clearly they have their wires crossed at MB if they think making such statements actually hold water, pun intended. :) What they produce better not be a superconductor....

I referred it in Steve's thread before, but perhaps it is how they want to use it - the niobium-titanium core is used as a support of the core conductive layer. The strands are just thin copper tubes tubes filled with a resistive material. They do not claim to use SC's - just materials being used in SC's,
Anyway, I am just hypothesizing!
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
They also said as you pointed out


Our interest is of course room temperature. At room temp, the reverse of all this happens. Niobium-titanium at room temp has 20 times higher resistance than copper! Let me repeat: Niobium-titanium has twenty times higher resistance than ordinary copper.
 

LL21

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Hi Steve,

Congrats on the new cables. As a big fan of Transparent myself which has plenty of fans who have gone to the edge of beyond with their Opus (myself included), i fully appreciate what happens when you step out onto the ledge to proclaim a newfound level of everything in your system. You are brave to stand out on the ledge in a new thread, but I for one am very interested in reading more as you get to know your cables more. Enjoy.
 

LL21

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mountainjoe

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So what are other users hearing or am I going to face the hyperbole police alone :)

No worries - I'll jump in with some hyperbole! :cool:

In regards to my system, this is described in my account settings but can elaborate here if folks have particular interest or questions. Highlights of my system include:

VSA VR-55 Aktive speakers
VTL TL6.5 preamp
VTL MB450III monoblocks
Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT with Triplanar MKVII tonearm and Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum cart modified with Soundsmith ruby cantilever and diamond line contact tip
Zesto Andros 1.2 phono stage

My SCs are 8' bi-wired MB Ultras which replaced a pair of Audio Art SC5 cables (and previous using older Nordost purple line bi-wire cables). For ICs, I use MB Ultra 1m RCA between the phono stage and preamp (which replaced a 1m pair of Darwin Ascension Plus cables); the preamp to monoblocks use 12' Darwin Ascension Plus XLRs.

I'm an electrical engineer so appreciate the science and engineering that has gone into the design of the MB cables and the fact that they have access to measurement equipment and tools that few (if any) audio cable manufacturers have access to. Having also discussed the design approach of the MB folks with Albert Von Schweikert in some detail, I feel confident that they take a measurement based, scientific approach to cable design but they also include ABX listening tests against competitive solutions and voice their cables to achieve best possible sound. In the end, we all know that's the only thing that matters (i.e. how they sound).

So how do these cables sound in my system? As Steve alluded to in his posts, like nothing at all! They simply get out of the way and allow the music to flow as though my speakers were bolted directly to the source.

The other comments about the MB cables are on point imo so I won't repeat much of what others have already said.

For me, the one outstanding characteristic of these cables is the natural, life-like representation both in terms of soundstage but especially in terms of frequency response. The MB cables give visibility into the lower and upper registers in a manner that doesn't call attention to any particular audio band, but rather simply lets the music come through as recorded.

To reiterate what Steve and others have said about the bass, I was not expecting a dramatic difference as my speakers are full range (rated to 21Hz) and have powered woofers with built-in 500W plate amps but the difference with the MB SCs was significant. It's not that I heard stronger or more bass but rather the bass became more articulate, directional, and filled in, in a way that is hard to describe but nonetheless very tangible. It's as though the bass gained another dimension - a dimension of body for lack of a better term. It became full and projected a solidity that emulated a real instrument unlike anything I've heard before in my system.

In fact, these cables had a similar effect on the rendition of all instruments in the soundstage - that is, instruments gained a 3-dimensional solidity in space with a palpable physicality as though they were actually present in the room. I'm not talking about a 3-dimensional soundstage - they do that exceptionally well too - but of 3-dimensional instruments!

In regards to the high frequencies, at first I actually thought the MB cables were rolling off my highs but then I began to hear high frequency sounds that I never heard before on some of my recordings. This surprised me so I started paying closer attention to what was happening in my system. I finally concluded, these cables introduce no discernible high frequency roll-off (to my aging ears at least) but rather present high frequencies in such a natural, neutral way that it sounded rolled-off to me at first. What I quickly realized was happening is that all the glare and harshness introduced by my old cables was no longer present and that my ears having become accustomed to that sound, found the natural balance of the MB cables at first to be lacking in the upper registers.

The highs with these cables are so free from the usual colorations introduced by other cables that it took time for my ears to settle into the sound and appreciate what was being presented - natural, extended, unadulterated, crystal clear highs. As a testament to the natural presentation of these cables, and without exaggeration, I've held listening sessions with audiophile friends where we listened to music at high levels for 8 hours straight without any listening fatigue whatsoever. In fact, I continued listening to music for a couple more hours even after my friends left (and much to my wife's chagrin) :D

If you think you've heard cables with good high frequency response, you should take a listen at MB Ultra cables - they will change your perception of what are natural sounding highs.

How's that for hyperbole? Certainly as audiophiles we are prone to getting excited and caught up in the latest widgets and technology, buying into the latest fad or well-reviewed component only to find after some time that the magic you first heard has somehow worn away or never materialized in your system in the first place. In my case, I've had these cables in my system for a good length of time and I'm still amazed at what they do in my system. The ICs between my phono stage and preamp were more recently added and I'm now going back and re-visiting all my vinyl as it's like all my records got upgraded. I'm hearing detail and spatial queues that I never knew existed. Also, the tonal correctness and articulation of human voices is sublime - it's the closest I've come to feeling the artist is in the room with me.

In closing, I don't know that these are the only cables in the world that do what I'm hearing as I haven't listened to them all (and certainly only a limited number of them in my system); I can only say that for me, in my system, these are the best cables I have ever heard and worth your time and dollars if you have interest in getting the most out of your system and the means to purchase them.

Cheers, Joe
 

PeterA

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Thanks for opening/starting a dedicated thread on this topic, Steve. It saves us from having to search the thousands of posts in your system thread, LOL. I don't see hyperbole in your opening post, just an extremely enthusiastic report from a new user who hears something he really likes. Now, if you had said that the addition of these cables made a more profound difference than the addition of any other single component to your system, I would ask about your adding an analog front end to your system and the relative change that brought about.

I remember getting my new cables and being so enthusiastic that I wrote a mini review posted on this forum. I admit to some hyperbole in that piece. It is sometimes difficult to resist.

It will be interesting to read if current owners of these cables name the brands of cables they replaced and describe specifically how the sound changed. I am curious about the technology and why these cables sound the way they do.

Reading of the subjective differences in the sound of your system that these new cables bring, I'm curious to know if you're prompted to experiment with your multiple speaker adjustments to optimize the new levels of extension and clarity. If you hear more resolution, and tonal differences, I wonder if some set up changes would improve things further or are all changes for the better with no audible shortcomings? What about subwoofer integration changing? I only ask this because I just read a rave review of the new Kronos power supply and because of the improvements, and more audible information from the grooves, the user fine tuned his VTA setting for further gains, basically because he was able to hear more to help him with more accurate tonearm adjustments. As just one example, perhaps the differences between your two arm/cartridge combinations will be even more audible with the clarity the new cables bring.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I'm listening to Mahlers 2 now and have heard it a dozen times. Today I hear things I've just never heard. There is nothing that jumps out the bass was my first jaw drop reaction yet as Joe says it has a finesse tonit. I agree also about drum pieces where I can hear the strike on different parts of the skin

My wife gets back on Wed. I haven't shaved in 3 days because I'm in my room all day. There is no glare. There is no fatigue. I also said in my system blog that the subtle ambience with the timber attack and decay with full range dynamics that accentuates nothing is for my ears the first timer I have truly heard my Lamm gear and I can say that I am loving what I hear.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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