Is it Unwise to Buy a SOTA Two Channel System at This Time?

witchdoctor · Sep 16, 2016

FrantzM said:
Hi

Intellectually I am all for MCH and believes it can carry more of the cues that gives Real Music its ... reality :b ... With the few MCHalbums that are well recorded in such a way to take advantage of MCH and in a system correctly set-up, the effect is spooky...
The thing is : Most of what I care to listen to is in 2-CH and I have not been able to digest the artificial MCH constructs very well. On top of that MCH is very difficult to set-up. I would think more so than 2-CH. And there could well be a serious dose of prejudice too !!! :b ...

Thus I stick to 2-CH and will invest gladly in my version of a SOTA 2-CH Audio system... One thing in it will be multi (>2): the subwoofers

Hey Frantz, I listen exclusively to two channel recordings, most of them live recordings upmixed in Auro3D. Atmos is difficult to set up if you need to put in ceiling speakers. Auro 3D involves taking 4 speakers and placing them above your l-r and surround channels. I used stands and it was easy, no drilling, hammering, etc. But it is still more involoved than plopping down 2 speakers so in that regard you are right, it is complicated comparitely speaking. So that is another good reason to invest in SOTA 2 channel, speaker setup is much less involved.

edorr · Sep 16, 2016

Native MCH will beat 2 channel any day of the week. THe issue is lack of availability of native MCH content. In classical I listen to MCH only - plenty content available. other genres not so much.

NorthStar · Sep 16, 2016

Yes, but there are many many, tons of high-res multichannel audio music recordings (discrete surround) on DVD Audio, SACD and Blu-ray out there.
And! All two-channel stereo music recordings, from any resolution...from highly compressed MP3, to lossy/compressed (and lossless/uncompressed) music streaming, to lossless Dolby TrueHD, to lossless DTS-HD MA, to lossles vinyl album, to lossless R2R tape, to PCM CD regular RedBook 16/44, to DSD music files, to hi-res music downloads (32/352), all that can be upmixed to surround 3-dimensional immersion...Dolby Surround (Dolby Atmos), DTS Neural:X (DTS:X), Auro-Matic 2D and 3D (Auro-3D) plus all the other surround sound audio codecs available all over the world including America, Japan, UK and Europe. ...Classical, Rock, Jazz, Blues, International, New Age, Electronica, ...

We have several choices; we are NOT limited to mono or stereo or solid stereo (3-channel) or 4 or 5 or 5.1 or 6.1 or 7.1 or 9.2 or 10.2 or 11.2 or 5.2.1 or 5.4.1 or 7.2.1 or 7.4.2 or 9.4.2 or 9.6.2 or 24.8.10 or 32.10.12 or 64.12.16 or 128.20.32 etc. ...D-BOX, TRINNOV, Steinway Lyngdorf, Barco, System Synthesis (JBL, Trinnov), Dolby Vision, IOSONO, etc., etc., etc.

It is conventionalism to believe that ultra high-end stereo systems are best @ 3-dimensionality audio space in the best acoustic rooms in the world.
It goes way beyond that. ...The science of sound envelopment in a realistic 3D space. There are many methods that have never been discussed here @ WBF since its very first inception in spring 2010.
Because for most ultra audiophiles more than two speakers is a grand sacrilege that breaks the law of principle barrier from the audio bible written on platinum tablets @ the same time of the ten commandments when Moses was in direct talk with the Voice Of God. :b

Do we all know all there is to know in our planet of the universe? No, so. ...Many ways to get 3-Dimensionality. What's best? ...A whole bunch of combinations and methods...that's what. ...Including ultra hi-end audiophile fuses, filled with beeswax and gold plated caps. :b

stehno · Oct 3, 2016

witchdoctor said:
Looking at the threads here it seems the conversation is basically "what do I buy now that isn't a waste of money?" Whether it is a CDP or $$$$ speakers you run the risk of spending more for getting less. Facts:

1) Vinyl sales are the fastest growing physical medium.
2) As CD sales and even itune purchases dry up streaming takes more market share.
3) Headphones and headphone amp sales seem to be exploding.
4) There is another format war in home theater for immersive audio.
5) It seems more equipment is being sold online and boutique audio dealers sales are going down.

Does it make sense to buy all of the components necessary for a SOTA two channel system given all this change?
Why not just get a good pair of headhones and an amp or just setup an immersive audio HT?

If performance is your thang and you strive for perfection, knowing you'll never quite achieve it, and otherwise have an open mind, then absolutely yes it makes tremendous sense to buy a 2-ch only system. But only if you forget about your "buy all the components necessary" comment as anything more than 2 or 3 components is unnecessary baggage and potentially gets in the way of performance.

witchdoctor · Oct 3, 2016

stehno said:
If performance is your thang and you strive for perfection, knowing you'll never quite achieve it, and otherwise have an open mind, then absolutely yes it makes tremendous sense to buy a 2-ch only system. But only if you forget about your "buy all the components necessary" comment as anything more than 2 or 3 components is unnecessary baggage and potentially gets in the way of performance.

I do have a nice (but not SOTA) 2 channel only system on my desktop and completely agree, you can be completely satisfied, how else could 2 channel still be around since the 1930's.
Earlier this evening I went to www.qello.com and played the Queen Live in Montral concert upmixed into Auro 3D. When Bohemian Rhapsody came on I was sitting wondering how big would the speakers need to be to approach these dynnamics in 2 channel and would this type of a soundstage even be possible. The answer is I don't know but my guess is you would need to spend a lot more money and even then you may not be able to replicate it. Until I experienced it for myself in my own space I could not have imagined it, even using the older upmixers like Dolby PLiix didn't even come close to this level of realism.

stehno · Oct 3, 2016

witchdoctor said:
I do have a nice (but not SOTA) 2 channel only system on my desktop and completely agree, you can be completely satisfied, how else could 2 channel still be around since the 1930's.
Earlier this evening I went to www.qello.com and played the Queen Live in Montral concert upmixed into Auro 3D. When Bohemian Rhapsody came on I was sitting wondering how big would the speakers need to be to approach these dynnamics in 2 channel and would this type of a soundstage even be possible. The answer is I don't know but my guess is you would need to spend a lot more money and even then you may not be able to replicate it. Until I experienced it for myself in my own space I could not have imagined it, even using the older upmixers like Dolby PLiix didn't even come close to this level of realism.

Well I don't know nothin' bout any of that.

But I have Queen Rock Montreal 1981 DVD. I never really cared for Queen even though I grew up in that era. But the audio and video are both so well-engineered, not only is this my favorite video concert I discovered Queen is a pretty incredible band.

witchdoctor · Oct 4, 2016

stehno said:
Well I don't know nothin' bout any of that.

But I have Queen Rock Montreal 1981 DVD. I never really cared for Queen even though I grew up in that era. But the audio and video are both so well-engineered, not only is this my favorite video concert I discovered Queen is a pretty incredible band.

Qello.com has that video plus 5 other Queen concerts, you will find a lot of other concert videos from all types of music as well. +1 on them being an incredible band.

https://qello.com/artist/Queen-66

witchdoctor · Nov 8, 2016

I am looking at this review of the SOTA 2 channel systems at the NY Audio Show. I think this reflects that these types of systems are incredibly complicated to create. It takes professionals or extremely seasoned audiophiles with years of experience to understand the alchemy of component interaction to put these systems together.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/arts-day-new-york-audio-show

It is extremely complex and expensive to create the illusion of live music from just two speakers. Talk to me about WAF and the size of some of these speakers seem ridiculous.

IMO a 3D audio system comprised of book shelf speakers is actually more spouse friendly, cheaper and easier to set up, and using an auro 3d upmixer, sennheiser ambeo or harman quantum logic codecs will still produce music that has a sound closer to the live event then a system built with just 2 speakers for the same budget.

SCAudiophile · Nov 8, 2016

"I am looking at this review of the SOTA 2 channel systems at the NY Audio Show. I think this reflects that these types of systems are "surviving" but certainly not "thriving"-

http://www.stereophile.com/content/a...ork-audio-show"

I would not agree that SOTA 2 channel systems are only surviving, not thriving. After a lot of research into streaming and server-based solutions there is a long way to go (IMHO) before these solutions, and the media that are served out (via streaming) truly hit the level of refinement of the best 2 channel analog or digital systems.

witchdoctor · Nov 8, 2016

SCAudiophile said:
"I am looking at this review of the SOTA 2 channel systems at the NY Audio Show. I think this reflects that these types of systems are "surviving" but certainly not "thriving"-

http://www.stereophile.com/content/a...ork-audio-show"

I would not agree that SOTA 2 channel systems are only surviving, not thriving. After a lot of research into streaming and server-based solutions there is a long way to go (IMHO) before these solutions, and the media that are served out (via streaming) truly hit the level of refinement of the best 2 channel analog or digital systems.

Well I edited my post, any industry that can charge $20K+ for a system and still have a market is not on the verge of dying out.
But a customer could take take half of that budget and build a 3D audio system that would deliver an outstanding result. It would be simpler to setup, if built with good book shelf speaker have better WAF than some of those giant towers, and as an added bonus would be excellent at both music and movies.

I think the industry is going to smaller form factor, convenience with one system for music, movies and gaming, and the SQ keeps getting better for dollars spent.

Here are some examples of small form factor systems that Sound and Vision magazine feels are of the reference variety, You would need two of these 5.1 systems for a 10.2 auro 3d system that would be amazing:

https://rslspeakers.com/product-comparison/

witchdoctor · Nov 8, 2016

Case in point, check out the new system from electrocompaniet, and I think the speakers are active too:

https://ecliving.electrocompaniet.no/what-is-ec-living/?lang=en

SCAudiophile · Nov 8, 2016

witchdoctor said:
Well I edited my post, any industry that can charge $20K+ for a system and still have a market is not on the verge of dying out.
But a customer could take take half of that budget and build a 3D audio system that would deliver an outstanding result. It would be simpler to setup, if built with good book shelf speaker have better WAF than some of those giant towers, and as an added bonus would be excellent at both music and movies.

I think the industry is going to smaller form factor, convenience with one system for music, movies and gaming, and the SQ keeps getting better for dollars spent.

Here are some examples of small form factor systems that Sound and Vision magazine feels are of the reference variety, You would need two of these 5.1 systems for a 10.2 auro 3d system that would be amazing:

https://rslspeakers.com/product-comparison/

Great feedback,....thank you. I'm not sure I get how going from 2 large tower speakers to a multi-speaker surround speaker setup plus at least 1 subwoofer is moving to a smaller form factor per se when you take all the additional cables and speaker placement into consideration (I've actually had a great 7.1 HT+surround sound/music setup) but I agree with the rest of the points including the "WAF" angle!

witchdoctor · Nov 8, 2016

SCAudiophile said:
Great feedback,....thank you. I'm not sure I get how going from 2 large tower speakers to a multi-speaker surround speaker setup plus at least 1 subwoofer is moving to a smaller form factor per se when you take all the additional cables and speaker placement into consideration (I've actually had a great 7.1 HT+surround sound/music setup) but I agree with the rest of the points including the "WAF" angle!

Here is how Electrocompaniet is doing it. I am not saying this syetm is better than the ones at the NY Audio show, just an example of where things seem to be heading and how they dealt with the issue of placement, subs and wires:

https://ecliving.electrocompaniet.no/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016_Aug_HIFI138_EC_Living_LR.pdf

SCAudiophile · Nov 8, 2016

NorthStar said:
There is no limit about being passionate. ...Including a state-of-the-art two-channel stereo high fidelity sound system....It's all about the MUSIC ?

Amen Brother!!!

SCAudiophile · Nov 8, 2016

witchdoctor said:
Here is how Electrocompaniet is doing it. I am not saying this syetm is better than the ones at the NY Audio show, just an example of where things seem to be heading and how they dealt with the issue of placement, subs and wires:

https://ecliving.electrocompaniet.no/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2016_Aug_HIFI138_EC_Living_LR.pdf

Electrocompaniet is a fantastic company; they make some wonderful sounding products! I've respected their approach to things for quite a while now

stehno · Nov 8, 2016

witchdoctor said:
Case in point, check out the new system from electrocompaniet, and I think the speakers are active too:

To the contrary, based on what I think I know about mechanical distortions inducing their horrific harm on amplifiers outside the speakers, I'm pretty much convinced one could never get beyond the traditional and lowly me-too "hi-fi" sound when employing amplification inside the speakers, regardless of mfg'er and cost.

microstrip · Nov 9, 2016

SCAudiophile said:
Electrocompaniet is a fantastic company; they make some wonderful sounding products! I've respected their approach to things for quite a while now

I have no experience with their recent products, but having owned almost all their amplifiers in the 80's and 90's and their excellent CD player I can say they sounded great. They need very careful matching, and the preamplifiers were too reserved for my taste, but I could assemble excellent systems with them. I have found that Electrocompaniet amplifiers sounded particularly good with electrostatics when driven by a tube preamplifier. They had one drawback - they had a long warm-up period : typically around one or two hours before sounding good.

witchdoctor · Nov 11, 2016

stehno said:
To the contrary, based on what I think I know about mechanical distortions inducing their horrific harm on amplifiers outside the speakers, I'm pretty much convinced one could never get beyond the traditional and lowly me-too "hi-fi" sound when employing amplification inside the speakers, regardless of mfg'er and cost.

I haven't measured so you may be right. It seems to work pretty well for companies making powered studio monitors like JBL, Focal, Tannoy and Genelec. I think the manufacturers take that into consideration during the testing phase of their speakers. I don't think there is a definitive answer it is a matter of preference.

witchdoctor · Nov 11, 2016

microstrip said:
I have no experience with their recent products, but having owned almost all their amplifiers in the 80's and 90's and their excellent CD player I can say they sounded great. They need very careful matching, and the preamplifiers were too reserved for my taste, but I could assemble excellent systems with them. I have found that Electrocompaniet amplifiers sounded particularly good with electrostatics when driven by a tube preamplifier. They had one drawback - they had a long warm-up period : typically around one or two hours before sounding good.

I like the fact that purchasing those speakers and a controller you would have electrocompaniet products , custom matched and purpose built from one end of the signal chain to the other with.

stehno · Nov 11, 2016

witchdoctor said:
I haven't measured so you may be right. It seems to work pretty well for companies making powered studio monitors like JBL, Focal, Tannoy and Genelec. I think the manufacturers take that into consideration during the testing phase of their speakers. I don't think there is a definitive answer it is a matter of preference.

Measurements most likely won't tell much.

Besides that, some-to-many will claim active speakers "work for them" because they generally think "hi-fi" sound is the cat's meow. Including the manufacturers of active speakers.

Is it Unwise to Buy a SOTA Two Channel System at This Time?

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