Is it Unwise to Buy a SOTA Two Channel System at This Time?

witchdoctor · Sep 15, 2016

Looking at the threads here it seems the conversation is basically "what do I buy now that isn't a waste of money?" Whether it is a CDP or $$$$ speakers you run the risk of spending more for getting less. Facts:

1) Vinyl sales are the fastest growing physical medium.
2) As CD sales and even itune purchases dry up streaming takes more market share.
3) Headphones and headphone amp sales seem to be exploding.
4) There is another format war in home theater for immersive audio.
5) It seems more equipment is being sold online and boutique audio dealers sales are going down.

Does it make sense to buy all of the components necessary for a SOTA two channel system given all this change?
Why not just get a good pair of headhones and an amp or just setup an immersive audio HT?

caesar · Sep 15, 2016

witchdoctor said:
Looking at the threads here it seems the conversation is basically "what do I buy now that isn't a waste of money?" Whether it is a CDP or $$$$ speakers you run the risk of spending more for getting less. Facts:

1) Vinyl sales are the fastest growing physical medium.
2) As CD sales and even itune purchases dry up streaming takes more market share.
3) Headphones and headphone amp sales seem to be exploding.
4) There is another format war in home theater for immersive audio.
5) It seems more equipment is being sold online and boutique audio dealers sales are going down.

Does it make sense to buy all of the components necessary for a SOTA two channel system given all this change?
Why not just get a good pair of headhones and an amp or just setup an immersive audio HT?

Witchdoctor, interesting use of the word "wise", LOL.

The impression I get is that for guys in the upper-middle class and upper class who have a passion for high-end gear, it's more of an obsession than anything else to get the best sounding gear possible. All other trends be damned, they just don't get off on that.

For elderly guys with $1M, $3M, $5M+ in their bank accounts, buying a piece of gear is kind of like going on a nice vacation. But with the vacation, though, you only get to keep the memory. With great gear, you can go back to it multiple times. And maybe resell at 50% of original purchase price...

NorthStar · Sep 15, 2016

There is no limit about being passionate. ...Including a state-of-the-art two-channel stereo high fidelity sound system....It's all about the MUSIC ?

witchdoctor · Sep 15, 2016

caesar said:
Witchdoctor, interesting use of the word "wise", LOL.

The impression I get is that for guys in the upper-middle class and upper class who have a passion for high-end gear, it's more of an obsession than anything else to get the best sounding gear possible. All other trends be damned, they just don't get off on that.

For elderly guys with $1M, $3M, $5M+ in their bank accounts, buying a piece of gear is kind of like going on a nice vacation. But with the vacation, though, you only get to keep the memory. With great gear, you can go back to it multiple times. And maybe resell at 50% of original purchase price...

I am smiling because I opened this post right after listening to my gear and yes, I find myself to continue to go back to it. I think "obsession" pretty much nails it. This is not necessarily 100% about absolute SQ but the fun you have tinkering around with the tech and trying new brands. I think buying new gear can exactly be like going on a vacation, even if you don't have the million bucks. Two channel is now relegated to my desktop but that doesn't mean I have lost my passion for it. Every time I score a deal on Craiglist for vintage gear it feels almost like hitting the lotto. However, this is far far removed from SOTA.

Johnny Vinyl · Sep 15, 2016

This question has the potential for a thousand answers and many more about what exactly is SOTA.

Saturntube · Sep 15, 2016

Benefits of listenig to music

Listening to music has so many benefits, forget about it being an obsession, which it is, the actual event of sitting down closing your eyes and playing music will do wonders for yur stress level, your inner peace and your rest.

Feed your brain!

witchdoctor · Sep 15, 2016

Johnny Vinyl said:
This question has the potential for a thousand answers and many more about what exactly is SOTA.

Of course the actual answer is subjective. In the context of this thread I meant SOTA as in EXPENSIVE. Is it wise to spend a lot of coin on two channel right now or can you be better off getting good SQ for less money with something else? Such as a mid-fi or vintage two channel system for not a lot of coin, a headphone system, an immersive audio HT system, etc. Is it unwise to spend the big bucks on two channel while the industry may be changing. For example a pair of Phantoms come in at $5K and includes full range speakers, DAC, amp, and I think you can just stream using blue tooth from your phone. This type of setup will only get better, cheaper, and easier to use in the future. Why spend $$$ on a rack of 2 channel components today?
Maybe it is better to just go immersive for the best SQ since it works great and is fairly straight forward to setup.

https://www.wired.com/2015/06/review-devialet-phantom-2/

treitz3 · Sep 15, 2016

It is IMO. The reason why is the end result as to what hits your ears.

Tom

Johnny Vinyl · Sep 15, 2016

witchdoctor said:
Of course the actual answer is subjective. In the context of this thread I meant SOTA as in EXPENSIVE. Is it wise to spend a lot of coin on two channel right now or can you be better off getting good SQ for less money with something else? Such as a mid-fi or vintage two channel system for not a lot of coin, a headphone system, an immersive audio HT system, etc. Is it unwise to spend the big bucks on two channel while the industry may be changing. For example a pair of Phantoms come in at $5K and includes full range speakers, DAC, amp, and I think you can just stream using blue tooth from your phone. This type of setup will only get better, cheaper, and easier to use in the future. Why spend $$$ on a rack of 2 channel components today?
Maybe it is better to just go immersive for the best SQ since it works great and is fairly straight forward to setup.

https://www.wired.com/2015/06/review-devialet-phantom-2/

SOTA as in expensive is something that several members here have partaken in and, from what I've read, are very pleased to have done so. I imagine therefore that to them it's a wise or at least a worthwhile investment. I don't think those members would consider spending less for something that is just good enough, which is not to say that lower-priced gear is less SOTA.

Although I am far removed from being able to afford SOTA (expensive) I do buy what I think is the best value for my money and has the sound I enjoy. And what I enjoy is physical media playback on a traditional 2-channel setup. Frankly speaking, I think I've made some excellent choices in that regard. Could I get the same sound using a streaming service, or downloads? Perhaps I could and it would likely result in a lesser investment, but I'd be giving something up that means as much to me as sound quality... the interaction between me and my physical media collection. I'm not prepared or interested in doing so as that loss would be greater than any supposed improvement in sound quality (of which I'm not convinced there is).

fas42 · Sep 15, 2016

witchdoctor said:
Does it make sense to buy all of the components necessary for a SOTA two channel system given all this change?
Why not just get a good pair of headhones and an amp or just setup an immersive audio HT?

Yes.

Pretty easy to answer - because it doesn't do the job! I've tried the headphone thing, with a set of top notch headphones lent to me - and I couldn't go more than 5 minutes or so; reverting back to the stereo which was also playing at that moment was an enormous relief! And "immersive HT" to me is just a gimmick - playing with knobs and hoojahs, just because one can; in the end I just want to listen to music as if I was there at the edge of the musical event being created, and just move around with respect to that position without losing anything by doing so - this is what gives me long term pleasure.

witchdoctor · Sep 15, 2016

Johnny Vinyl said:
SOTA as in expensive is something that several members here have partaken in and, from what I've read, are very pleased to have done so. I imagine therefore that to them it's a wise or at least a worthwhile investment. I don't think those members would consider spending less for something that is just good enough, which is not to say that lower-priced gear is less SOTA.

Although I am far removed from being able to afford SOTA (expensive) I do buy what I think is the best value for my money and has the sound I enjoy. And what I enjoy is physical media playback on a traditional 2-channel setup. Frankly speaking, I think I've made some excellent choices in that regard. Could I get the same sound using a streaming service, or downloads? Perhaps I could and it would likely result in a lesser investment, but I'd be giving something up that means as much to me as sound quality... the interaction between me and my physical media collection. I'm not prepared or interested in doing so as that loss would be greater than any supposed improvement in sound quality (of which I'm not convinced there is).

That's a good point, the process of getting good value for money is always important, regardless of the amount you spend you want great value. I think you made another good point is this isn't all about SQ, the interaction with the media is a great reason to go the traditional route.

witchdoctor · Sep 15, 2016

fas42 said:
Yes.

Pretty easy to answer - because it doesn't do the job! I've tried the headphone thing, with a set of top notch headphones lent to me - and I couldn't go more than 5 minutes or so; reverting back to the stereo which was also playing at that moment was an enormous relief! And "immersive HT" to me is just a gimmick - playing with knobs and hoojahs, just because one can; in the end I just want to listen to music as if I was there at the edge of the musical event being created, and just move around with respect to that position without losing anything by doing so - this is what gives me long term pleasure.

For me the headphone thing is just uncomfortable, I don't like music pouring right into my brain from point blank range, I like to feel it surround me like I was at a concert. As for gimmicky immersive audio I agree 100% from the marketing side of things, they have screwed it up big time. The sales pitch from Dolby is sickening. DTS kicked their ass in blue ray so how else could they get back market share? Then they have the gall to tell you to drill holes in your ceiling at the precise locations they specify or stick a 3 inch driver somewhere and point it up at the ceiling- gimmicks. Then they got another angle, you need to trash all those old BRD you bought and shell out more dough for the Atmos/UHD/4K version and have you priced those things? Ouch! Then not to be outdone the bozos at DTS announced their own competing codec, released it late, then it had bugs and it still can't do music. Fortunately there is a Switzerland in this format war, Auro 3D. Use a 5.1 setup you already have and place a speaker above your l-r and surround channels. The upmixer works great with PCM on both movies and music and you are done. I am so happy never needing to buy a disc again for a stupid codec and everything I stream sounds state of the art in either music or movies. So is it still gimmicky? All you need to do is add 4 speakers to your rig and plug and play, pretty straight forward IMO.

Folsom · Sep 15, 2016

This reads as nonsense to me.

First what the hell does home theater have to do with 2 channel? When I hear about home theater tech I think, "oh neat, but I don't really give a ****."

The medium war is not... if you like CD's you like them. No one not an audiophile cares at all about DSD, which is the only format in digital contention with the CD so CD's are not going anywhere just yet until the general public decides that they're forever dead. MQA we don't know anything about really... it's not much more likely to survive than SACD or anything else.

Headphones are popular probably just as time coming where people travel, people that didn't have Stereo's, and people that can't afford most SOTA items.

I don't see any downfall in sales in what you're talking about. The sales are down in the lower priced items for two factors. First it's almost senseless to buy cheaper products with dealer markup because direct purchase gets you something at least twice as good. Frankly dealer stuff at low prices isn't worth a damn usually, and it's made in China most of the time. There's just no way to make things cheap enough these days. In reality most are cheap, but compared to expenditure ability they don't appear so, which is the second issue of stagnant wages preventing people from purchasing as much. People still purchase but there's a middle ground gap where purchasing is lower than in the past. I believe it's still somewhat of a myth that it's really a dead zone. The reality is people have wised up to the fact that you can get soooooo much more for their money in certain price zones. The SOTA tech, or modern even, for sub $10k primarily exists in direct sales. No one wants old dried up boring products... especially these days when they look at all the fancy stuff online.

It's not unlike the myth that "vinyl is dead" or "film is dead" when the reality is neither are true but both struggle to charge enough money that people want to pay since they aren't as mainstream as when they were the only option. In fact consider this... there are more expensive turntables than ever, and film cameras have achieved an all time high price. There's no question about the fact that they're in use, it's just the production of the periphery items that do best in quantity.

witchdoctor · Sep 16, 2016

Folsom said:

This reads as nonsense to me.

First what the hell does home theater have to do with 2 channel? When I hear about home theater tech I think, "oh neat, but I don't really give a ****."

Click to expand...

Folsom said:
I'll bet there are a lot of people who feel the same way you do about HT so I guess for them the answer would be yes, it does make sense to buy a SOTA 2 channel system, that makes sense. But if SQ is the ultimate goal is 2 channel the best format or MCH for music? In my experience MCH sounds better, and not by a little.

Folsom · Sep 16, 2016

I'll get back to you if I ever that experience... which is pending on vinyl becoming multilec channel or at least music I'd want to hear being released even in multi channel.

Robh3606 · Sep 16, 2016

Does it make sense to buy all of the components necessary for a SOTA two channel system given all this change?
Why not just get a good pair of headhones and an amp or just setup an immersive audio HT?

Hello Witchdoctor

Any decent surround set-up can do stereo quite well so that's kind of a no brainer. I listen to 2 channel in 2 channel any the surround formats just make up crap to give you the extra channels. The new formats with height channels I don't get for music simply because there is nothing over my head at a real show just ambiance. With movies it makes sense but music??

Rob

bonzo75 · Sep 16, 2016

Robh3606 said:
Hello Witchdoctor

Any decent surround set-up can do stereo quite well so that's kind of a no brainer. I listen to 2 channel in 2 channel any the surround formats just make up crap to give you the extra channels. The new formats with height channels I don't get for music simply because there is nothing over my head at a real show just ambiance. With movies it makes sense but music??

Rob

Hi Rob, if the height channel is used well it gives you a depth from stage feeling. It is easier to get a distant yet close, 8th row kind of seat, rather than the 8 - 12 feet from your speakers. It works particularly well for chorals and MCH full symphony. And just like at a show it gives ambience, not sound. The trick is to have so little sound coming out from the surround speakers that it gives ambience. Not like the batmobile going from the left side to the right behind your head

witchdoctor · Sep 16, 2016

Robh3606 said:
Hello Witchdoctor

Any decent surround set-up can do stereo quite well so that's kind of a no brainer. I listen to 2 channel in 2 channel any the surround formats just make up crap to give you the extra channels. The new formats with height channels I don't get for music simply because there is nothing over my head at a real show just ambiance. With movies it makes sense but music??

Rob

Hey Rob, Let me give you some context. MCH can mean music that was mixed into more than 2 channels (SACD, DVD-A, BRD, etc). My context is the Auro 3D upmixer called auromatic. You push a botton and it upmixes the music into 10.1 channel surround sound. In my room the height channels interlock with the bed channels to create a sound stage that encompasses up and down height in addition to the usual left to right and front to back. I followed the auro setup instructions as closely as possible and this does not sound like the other codecs I have used before like PL-IIx or DTS-Neo X. With a good recording the auro 3d creates a very life like image in front of you. Those other codecs kind of introduced a sound which was too easily localized as coming from the speaker, especially with rear surround channels.which sometimes sounded natural and sometimes not.

FrantzM · Sep 16, 2016

Hi

Intellectually I am all for MCH and believe it can carry more of the cues that gives Real Music its ... reality :b ... With the few MCHalbums that are well recorded and take advantage of MCH and in a system correctly set-up, the effect is spooky...
The thing is : Most of what I care to listen to is in 2-CH and I have not been able to digest artificial MCH constructs very well. On top of that, MCH is very difficult to set-up. I would think more so than 2-CH. And there could well be a serious dose of prejudice too !!! :b ...

Thus I stick to 2-CH and will invest gladly in my version of a SOTA 2-CH Audio system... One thing in it will be multi (>2): the subwoofers

microstrip · Sep 16, 2016

FrantzM said:
(...) One thing in it will be multi (>2): the subwoofers

Yes, audiophiles love to make simple thinks complicated ...

Is it Unwise to Buy a SOTA Two Channel System at This Time?

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