FWIW my experience with local BMW maintenance is as follows. I have a good independent maintenance shop that I trust. They charge about 30% less on average - which is still not cheap. The local dealer says he will match independent maintenance prices. What am I supposed to do, get quotes every time? I certainly don't trust this dealer. Here's why. If I take the car to the dealer for a minor repair, no charge air bag recall replacement, etc, I can be sure that they always take extra time to find things (sometimes real, sometimes NOT) that need work, and I will not get the car back until they have 'found' over $1,000 worth of recommended maintenance. Honestly, I think their service dept. has a $1,000 bogey to meet. Well, not from me.
2018 Toyota Camry Photo Leak ?
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well; I don't want to totally mess up this already major train wreck of a thread, it has had such a complete lack of relevancy to reality I hate to give it life.
but.....I will respond...anyway.
here's the deal. the dealer has liability and assets to lose. the independent repair facility can claim ignorance, and just shrugs when there is a problem and claims poverty. he is just a guy trying to get by. so when you go to a dealer that dealer will be responsible for what they don't find. if they repair one thing but another thing fails you as the consumer will stick that failure to diagnose up their butts. and the dealer has an obligation to recommend the manufacturers recommended maintenance. the customer does not want to hear this professional factual report.
OTOH the independent repair facility skates off scott free and just fixes what you tell them to fix and can wash their hands of things that fail later. or if they fix something but that does not solve the problem it's on you to pay additionally. I've even seen it where the customer comes back to the dealer who at no charge diagnosed the problem, but the independent repair facility did the repair, and it did not fix the problem. the customer was upset with the dealer, not the independent repair facility that did the work. and the customer could not understand why the dealer should not make it right. sounds crazy? it's how customers view things and how dealers are crapped on by the independants.
so the dealer demands that every car gets properly inspected and disclosed; because they are a large target and vulnerable. they would rather be safe than sorry. better for you to walk away than they miss something.
the independent points fingers accusing the dealer of over-diagnosing when that is the wrong cause and effect.
I live this scenario every single day. it's not going to change any time soon.
the average repair order at an independent repair facility is about 33% higher than at a dealer for any particular make. the dealer does the warranty work and diagnosis. the independent gets the gravy repair work heavy on parts and efficient higher labor hour jobs.
and the customer stops by the dealer and expects all sorts of freebies.
it's all about expectations. to a certain group of customers dealers are guilty till proven innocent.
you mention the airbag replacement at the dealer. last week we provided a free rental car to a customer who brought in their 2005 Honda Pilot with 250,000 miles on it while the airbag was done. it was a 2017 Honda CRV with 1000 miles on it. she brought it back with $500 damage on it, and agreed that the damage was not on the car when she took it. but refused to pay for it since we had plenty of money and it was not fair as she was a single mother.
that is my world.
so when I read stuff about not trusting dealers I want to scream.
I think I need a cigarette.
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Mike, I appreciate you explaining how a lot of that really is...
My experience has been that dealers today have to be competitive for most repairs on non-luxury cars; so their prices and work are generally similar or better. I don't even care about seeking an independent shop if the dealer is good. Right now I haven't a clue whom a good independent shop even is since I moved a few years ago. In fact I want to take other vehicles that are not from the dealer I go to, to them, because I like them so much (no idea if they even service other things). As far as many of the super cheap places, well... there are some options out there for big company things like Midas, but I don't exactly find them to be very professional, or smart... or, well, anything but a pain.
Sorry that you must deal with such... uh, well we probably share some similar descriptions for people like that. There are a lot of crazy people out there, and I have to imagine as busy as dealers are, they see a lot of them.
My experience has been that dealers today have to be competitive for most repairs on non-luxury cars; so their prices and work are generally similar or better. I don't even care about seeking an independent shop if the dealer is good. Right now I haven't a clue whom a good independent shop even is since I moved a few years ago. In fact I want to take other vehicles that are not from the dealer I go to, to them, because I like them so much (no idea if they even service other things). As far as many of the super cheap places, well... there are some options out there for big company things like Midas, but I don't exactly find them to be very professional, or smart... or, well, anything but a pain.
Sorry that you must deal with such... uh, well we probably share some similar descriptions for people like that. There are a lot of crazy people out there, and I have to imagine as busy as dealers are, they see a lot of them.
well; I don't want to totally mess up this already major train wreck of a thread, it has had such a complete lack of relevancy to reality I hate to give it life.
but.....I will respond...anyway.
here's the deal. the dealer has liability and assets to lose. the independent repair facility can claim ignorance, and just shrugs when there is a problem and claims poverty. he is just a guy trying to get by. so when you go to a dealer that dealer will be responsible for what they don't find. if they repair one thing but another thing fails you as the consumer will stick that failure to diagnose up their butts. and the dealer has an obligation to recommend the manufacturers recommended maintenance. the customer does not want to hear this professional factual report.
OTOH the independent repair facility skates off scott free and just fixes what you tell them to fix and can wash their hands of things that fail later. or if they fix something but that does not solve the problem it's on you to pay additionally. I've even seen it where the customer comes back to the dealer who at no charge diagnosed the problem, but the independent repair facility did the repair, and it did not fix the problem. the customer was upset with the dealer, not the independent repair facility that did the work. and the customer could not understand why the dealer should not make it right. sounds crazy? it's how customers view things and how dealers are crapped on by the independants.
so the dealer demands that every car gets properly inspected and disclosed; because they are a large target and vulnerable. they would rather be safe than sorry. better for you to walk away than they miss something.
the independent points fingers accusing the dealer of over-diagnosing when that is the wrong cause and effect.
I live this scenario every single day. it's not going to change any time soon.
the average repair order at an independent repair facility is about 33% higher than at a dealer for any particular make. the dealer does the warranty work and diagnosis. the independent gets the gravy repair work heavy on parts and efficient higher labor hour jobs.
and the customer stops by the dealer and expects all sorts of freebies.
it's all about expectations. to a certain group of customers dealers are guilty till proven innocent.
you mention the airbag replacement at the dealer. last week we provided a free rental car to a customer who brought in their 2005 Honda Pilot with 250,000 miles on it while the airbag was done. it was a 2017 Honda CRV with 1000 miles on it. she brought it back with $500 damage on it, and agreed that the damage was not on the car when she took it. but refused to pay for it since we had plenty of money and it was not fair as she was a single mother.
that is my world.
so when I read stuff about not trusting dealers I want to scream.
I think I need a cigarette.
You all
are just mad because Toyota made a great car this time around!The 2018 Accord looks like something from the 90's, inside and out
...WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???THIS NEW ACCORD WITH IT'S TURBO
ENGINE IS NOTHING BUT JUNK NOW!! THAT'S VERY SAD NEWS FOR HONDA LOVERS NOW!:b
You all
The 2018 Accord looks like something from the 90's, inside and out
THIS NEW ACCORD WITH IT'S TURBO
how the moderators have put up with your act in this thread is pathetic. we can go back to the childish Toyota commercial now. truth is out of place here.
I have hundreds (maybe thousands) of great long term customers I've known for 20 or 30+ years. I would do anything for them. but a certain group of customers are skeptical of dealers....which comes with the territory. a cost of doing business......the dark side.
as far as repair costs for older cars, there is package selling, and step selling, of repair jobs.
a new car dealer typically will quote a whole package, which includes likely related repairs to the job. so there are no surprises, but the quote is higher.
the independent will quote the base repair job, then charge more for the steps when they get into the repair and find other things wrong.
the dealer is afraid of the blow back when they will ask the customer to pay more, the independent repair facility is not afraid.
I've lost techs to independent shops because they make more money and have no comebacks. less accountability.
obviously there are independent shops with better processes and accountability. but they are rare. dealers are held to a consistently much higher standard.
I cannot comment on every specific situation i'm not involved with, but when a diagnosis we make is questioned it's a big deal to investigate the issue. the techs in our shop will not stand for one of them causing doubt in a diagnosis and having our credibility questioned. the peer pressure on that is considerable. I have a quality control manager who inspects a percentage of the jobs and diagnosis to deal with that.
so your 'making stuff up' comment only passes muster if you take the time to ask the dealer to investigate your suspicions. otherwise it is just your opinion, based on what facts exactly?
I have this exact conversation with customers, which is healthy. this typically leads to a great long term relationship since they see our processes and how much we care about the truth.
so your inference of a 'reputation' is based on what? it's based on consumer ignorance and advertising by independent repair facilities (the national chains mostly).
Toyota has made a great 4 cylinder engine in their 2018 Camry, it has all the power most will ever need!
New Turbo Engines are Junk TOO, go look on the forums and see for yourself! Go to the car repair shops they will tell you there Junk too!!
New Turbo Engines are Junk TOO, go look on the forums and see for yourself! Go to the car repair shops they will tell you there Junk too!!
I know nothing about cars, zippitditdo. This thread is 20 pages long. The new 2018 Camry looks ravishingly young and dynamic. Her lines are sexy, her interior is splendid, her specs are peppy, her base price is attractive, etc., etc., etc.
Toyota Camry, according to expert car people, is a solid piece of reliable/affordable Japanese engineering, one of the best.
I know nothing about cars, I'm just a simple guy happy reading about them and participating in good spirit the best that I can afford to.
I drive a very humble car, I ride a very simple bike, I listen to music from a very simple hi-fi rig, I watch movies from a very humble TV, I live in a very gorgeous environment, I have the best friends and the best family, I love life immensely.
I know nothing, I only smell the flowers to be content. When I open the hood to check the oil level it's like second nature, all is good. When I ride around town and on the highway I see all kind of cars, trucks and bikes going in all directions.
When my private chauffeur takes the wheel, I see the country side, the sweet little houses, the people walking, the kids playing, the skyscrapers, the gardens, the trees, the mountains, the lakes, the eagles, the ocean, ...life without being concentrated on the road and other drivers.
I know nothing about cars, this thread is twenty pages long.
* http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business/marketplace-dealerships-service-upselling-1.4300557
Toyota Camry, according to expert car people, is a solid piece of reliable/affordable Japanese engineering, one of the best.
I know nothing about cars, I'm just a simple guy happy reading about them and participating in good spirit the best that I can afford to.
I drive a very humble car, I ride a very simple bike, I listen to music from a very simple hi-fi rig, I watch movies from a very humble TV, I live in a very gorgeous environment, I have the best friends and the best family, I love life immensely.
I know nothing, I only smell the flowers to be content. When I open the hood to check the oil level it's like second nature, all is good. When I ride around town and on the highway I see all kind of cars, trucks and bikes going in all directions.
When my private chauffeur takes the wheel, I see the country side, the sweet little houses, the people walking, the kids playing, the skyscrapers, the gardens, the trees, the mountains, the lakes, the eagles, the ocean, ...life without being concentrated on the road and other drivers.
I know nothing about cars, this thread is twenty pages long.
* http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business/marketplace-dealerships-service-upselling-1.4300557
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Right now Toyota will only let you have the better sounding JBL Stereo if you buy the Camry with the V-6.
I hope that changes next year, if not, I will wait until I can get it with the 4-cylinder engine!
http://www.jbl.com/automotive-toyota.html
I hope that changes next year, if not, I will wait until I can get it with the 4-cylinder engine!
http://www.jbl.com/automotive-toyota.html
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If I had the money right now
I would buy some Yamaha ns 5000's and get lost in the Live Music!
With some of your favorite quality MQA music recordings?
You can even play them in the 2018 Toyota Camry via the USB port connected to your iPod.
You can even play them in the 2018 Toyota Camry via the USB port connected to your iPod.
But I would be so spoiled with the sound of my Yamaha speakers that I would have to put my Yamaha ns 5000 speakers in the back seat
of my new 2025 Camry and listen to very bad Live Music until Yamaha comes out with ZYLON CAR SPEAKERS!
Or you can put one or two real live musicians in the back seat, only one, in the passenger seat.
I am listening to Jesse right now:
I am listening to Jesse right now:
Or you can put one or two real live musicians in the back seat, only one, in the passenger seat.
I am listening to Jesse right now:
But I could not afford to pay real live musicians.. after spending $15K on the Yamaha ns 5000 speakers!
See there!, the 2018 Camry 4-cylinder has all the power most will ever need!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdkuvAJj1M4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdkuvAJj1M4
I guess I missed where it had 4 passengers going up a 6% grade at 80mph while not being revved to 6krpm.
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