Ambivalent About 2 Channel Stereo

Hello Northstar

Anyone else who likes multichannel music listening besides the OP, Carl, Kal and me?

I sure do! Think it can be great depending on the mix. I look at it as a completely different experience than 2 channel and find the 2 have their respective strengths. Actually I really like some of the 3 channel stereo original mixes on SACD. Wish that was what stereo was standardized too.

Rob:)
 
Hi Rob. :cool:

I deleted my entire previous post; only kept couple lines. Because I thought that without real experience with Auro-Matic my opinion had no foundation. :b
I do have experience like you with SACD multichannel and others, but not with Auro-Matic...just yet.
And it's true that I started experimenting with surround sound in 1969. But that doesn't count; I was just a young teenager.

Anyway I'm real glad that the OP started this thread and the comments I've been reading.
 

What many don't realize is that there's enough music info embedded in the recording medium (even some grossly inferior recordings) to literally fill the front half a listening room with volumes of natural sounding 3-D music via 2-channel only. But due to serious universal distortions (inducing a much raised noise floor) much of that music info, though processed, remains inaudible (below the noise floor) by the time it reaches the speaker drivers.

You (and many others) may like the phenomena of many point sources attempting to fill the room with music, but rest assured it's the phenomena you're impressed with as you ain't hearing any more actual music info with 14.1-channels than you could with sufficiently set up quality-oriented full-range 2-channels.

But there's also the lowest ranges of the frequency spectrum that very few full-range drivers can reproduce and for which sufficient sub-woofers are required so maybe I should qualify by saying 2.1 channels.



I totally agree. As for "raised noise floor": yes, that can suppress lots of spatial info and potential for 3-D presentation. Since I have BorderPatrol external power supplies for my amps, which allow for a much quieter noise floor, I obtain so much more low-level spatial info from recordings on plain Redbook CD that the difference with before is just unbelievable.

For my review of the power supplies discussing this, see:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...trol-MB-external-power-supplies-for-tube-amps

So yes, I agree. If you miss spatial info through your 2-channel system, something is not optimal with it.
 
Back to the OP's issues. I am not ambivalent at all about 2 channel stereo. About 99% of the time, I just do not listen to it, preferring discretely recorded Mch instead. I find that is a much, much closer approximation to what I hear in the hall live at concerts. And, there is no "raised noise floor" with discrete Mch recordings in hi rez. I think that is a bogus issue.

If I listen to a stereo recording, I listen in plain-vanilla stereo. I do not add synthetic Mch. But, some of those artificial synthesis systems are not terrible. I would just rather hear what the engineers heard themselves as they mixed, processed and mastered the recording for distribution, for better or for worse, without a layer of artificial processing applied. I am a purist at heart.

I have heard nothing but good things about Auro 3D discrete recordings or about synthetic Auromatic. But, they are a very long way from being an established consumer market paradigm whose very survival is even assured. They might still be a bust. There are perhaps only 10's, not 100's or 1,000's of discrete Auro 3D recordings.

Auromatic might be the most advanced synthesis tool to date, but I do not plan to update or reconfigure my system to support it. I agree with the premise that we hear live music in 3D, not 2D, space, but adding a third dimension to the 2D 5/7.1 Mch we now have will deliver diminishing sonic returns compared to 2D Mch vs. Stereo. I am in no rush to embrace 3D until its survival as a particular technology format is assured and we have a growing catalog of discrete recordings that use it.

One's music genre interests are a key. There are thousands of excellent 5/7.1 discrete Mch recordings available in classical on SACD and BD. I have > 1,000 myself. But, other music genres are not so fortunate. Hence, even 2D Mch is a tiny niche for music, though it is huge for movies. And, 3D sound is not necessarily a guaranteed success even for movies.

So, I am personally keeping my powder dry for now in a wait and see posture.
 
Back to the OP's issues. I am not ambivalent at all about 2 channel stereo. About 99% of the time, I just do not listen to it, preferring discretely recorded Mch instead. I find that is a much, much closer approximation to what I hear in the hall live at concerts. And, there is no "raised noise floor" with discrete Mch recordings in hi rez. I think that is a bogus issue.

If I listen to a stereo recording, I listen in plain-vanilla stereo. I do not add synthetic Mch. But, some of those artificial synthesis systems are not terrible. I would just rather hear what the engineers heard themselves as they mixed, processed and mastered the recording for distribution, for better or for worse, without a layer of artificial processing applied. I am a purist at heart.

I have heard nothing but good things about Auro 3D discrete recordings or about synthetic Auromatic. But, they are a very long way from being an established consumer market paradigm whose very survival is even assured. They might still be a bust. There are perhaps only 10's, not 100's or 1,000's of discrete Auro 3D recordings.

Auromatic might be the most advanced synthesis tool to date, but I do not plan to update or reconfigure my system to support it. I agree with the premise that we hear live music in 3D, not 2D, space, but adding a third dimension to the 2D 5/7.1 Mch we now have will deliver diminishing sonic returns compared to 2D Mch vs. Stereo. I am in no rush to embrace 3D until its survival as a particular technology format is assured and we have a growing catalog of discrete recordings that use it.

One's music genre interests are a key. There are thousands of excellent 5/7.1 discrete Mch recordings available in classical on SACD and BD. I have > 1,000 myself. But, other music genres are not so fortunate. Hence, even 2D Mch is a tiny niche for music, though it is huge for movies. And, 3D sound is not necessarily a guaranteed success even for movies.

So, I am personally keeping my powder dry for now in a wait and see posture.

Thanks, the onlu Mch recordings I have checked out are on DVD and BRD. Can you recommend some SACD's? As for what the engineers heard I think JBL speakers are a good choice. I use JBL 230's in my desktop rig and find them very clear and detailed. The LSR series are like the 230's little brothers. I prefer choosing my own amp instead of the class D's used in the LSR 305 and 308. But the 3 series s are cheap and are what a LOT of engineers are using to mix.Thanks
[video]https://youtu.be/LG8AfSAhbQY[/video]

[video]https://youtu.be/qOySstGCMRg[/video]
 
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Thanks for that link to Brent Butterworth's comments on MQA. Which IMO, only substantiates my opinion that those like Bob Stuart, Robert Harley, John Atkinson, et al have sold out big time for this new format that claims to be all things to all people.

I've never heard MQA nor do I need to as I already know for a fact (and have said so routinely over the past year) that it's impossible for MQA to provide anywhere near the performance levels the sellouts (or the naive) claimed.

Moreover, when Stuart claims that MQA borrows storage space from below the noise floor I grow concerned that, at least for those with potentially tremendously resolving systems, MQA may turn out to be a significant downgrade in resolution and hence performance. I wish somebody would ask Stuart whose noise floor is he referring to.

Damn, you should run for office. You would fit well with others who make comments on what they haven't heard. That is worse than being a shill for the MQA format.
 
If you can find them for reasonable money the two first selections from that list are good: http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/music/top-10-surround-sound-recordings/

There are thousands and thousands of classical multichannel hybrid SACDs out there. With Auro-Matic many will provide a higher level of music listening experience.
But yeah, you like Santana, you probably like the two above....Beck - Sea Changes and Pink Floyd - TDSOTM.
 
Damn, you should run for office. You would fit well with others who make comments on what they haven't heard. That is worse than being a shill for the MQA format.

I admire your enthusiasm but instead of posting about someone else opinion why not take one for the team and form one like you said, based on experience. Please let us know if you will grace us with your own opinion of MQA:

https://shop.klicktrack.com/2l/474324
 
If you can find them for reasonable money the two first selections from that list are good: http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/music/top-10-surround-sound-recordings/

There are thousands and thousands of classical multichannel hybrid SACDs out there. With Auro-Matic many will provide a higher level of music listening experience.
But yeah, you like Santana, you probably like the two above....Beck - Sea Changes and Pink Floyd - TDSOTM.

Great link, now I can start shopping. i like baroque music when I listen to classical, I mainly just switch to a curated list on tidal or an HD radio station but will try some of these.
I hope they aren't all priced like this, ouch!
https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-An...id=1473205791&sr=8-3&keywords=pink+floyd+sacd

Thanks
 
You mentioned Santana previously...so I thought of that.

There are also some DVD-Audio that I like, but I don't know if today you can still find them for a reasonable price.

One that I really like is this one ?

1364501368_folder.jpg


One on Blu-ray is this one ? (only $15 @ Amazon - 2-BD set)

12873_large.jpg


On Blu-ray Audio ? ($22 on Amazon - 1 BR Audio + 1 CD)

129744_large.jpg


That's now five multichannel hi-res music selections I personally mentioned with direct involvement; those five should blow you away real good when adding Auro-Matic on top of them.
_______

If multichannel classical music is also your thing; Kal and John (the OP of the classical music thread) are two of the experts. I know some too, and you can always check this link for ideas and reviews: http://www.audaud.com/music-category/sacd-other-hi-res-reviews/
 
SACDs, Blu-rays Video/Audio, DVDs Video/Audio? /// A multitude. ...Several multichannel hi-res audio media...in the thousand plus.

You're a Santana fan like me (most of us):
Hybrid SACD Stereo
1) https://www.musicdirect.com/optical-disc/santana-abraxas-numbered-limited-edition-hybrid-sacd
2) https://www.musicdirect.com/store/santana-santana-numbered-limited-edition-hybrid-sacd
3) http://www.mofi.com/product_p/udsacd2079.htm
_______

Yes - Tales from Topographic Ocean is a very special double album to me...price is not important.
This one is also a little less expensive (there are two links per line...above): http://stevenwilsonhq.com/sw/headphonedust/yes-tales-from-topographic-oceans-2cd2dvda/
_______

I buy discs for $40, I buy discs for $10, I bought discs for $100. We're all different...hi-res downloads are from $15 to $50. Some WBF members bought tapes and LPs for $200-400 each.
Nous sommes du soleil, we love when we play

 
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SACDs, Blu-rays Video/Audio, DVDs Video/Audio? /// A multitude. ...Several multichannel hi-res audio media...in the thousand plus.

You're a Santana fan like me (most of us):
Hybrid SACD Stereo
1) https://www.musicdirect.com/optical-disc/santana-abraxas-numbered-limited-edition-hybrid-sacd
2) https://www.musicdirect.com/store/santana-santana-numbered-limited-edition-hybrid-sacd
3) http://www.mofi.com/product_p/udsacd2079.htm

Wow!! That is some collection! Do the different formats have about the same SQ?
 

I'm a big Yes fan, can you tell.
______

Some multich. SACDs are excellent, some DVD Audio are excellent, some Blu-ray Video music concerts are excellent, some Blu-ray Audio are excellent...all high-res. Uncompressed, lossless, higher or equal to 24/48 (DSD)...all multichannel...from 3.0 to 7.1

I don't have a preference for the medium. I buy the music I like in the hi-res audio format that is avail @ the time.
Yes - TFTO ...I will get the DVD Audio format (2 DVD-A + 2 CDs).

Classical music is CD/SACD. Some Jazz, Blues too. ...And Blu-ray.
Other music stuff is Blu-ray and DVD Audio.
I don't buy Hi-Res music downloads...DSD, Flac, Wav, etc., but some here do. The majority...I think...buy music from stereo LPs. ...WBF members. ...And stereo CDs too.

Kal and John are big on Classical music from SACDs...both multichannel and stereo. I'm big on Classical music too, but I have more CDs than SACDs.
I don't have Auro, but it would suit me...because I love immersive music.

Without music we would probably become drug dealers and addicts. :D

? http://www.firstimpressionmusic.com/Default.asp
? http://www.chesky.com/
 
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My first concert was Yes when they were touring to support the release of guess what album? Tales From Topographic Oceans. It was unbelievable how long those songs were hearing them in concert for the first time.

The "Union" tour was pretty memorable with all of the guys from the sixties to the eighties lineup on a revolving stage together. How do these live recordings compare to the hirez discs?

Check out track #7

http://www.concertvault.com/yes/boston-garden-december-11-1974.html

this is good too

https://qello.com/concert/Symphonic-Live-In-America-2517/6#
 
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http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Yes-Close-to-the-Edge-Blu-ray/88559/
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Yes-Fragile-Blu-ray/138114/
________

I have this one ?

51-ZxukN6ZL._SY355_.jpg


But I don't have Auro-Matic.
_______

In the past, somewhere, we discussed hi-res multichannel from SACD and DVD Audio, with some of our favorites. Too many moons ago I cannot relocate those like without spending some more time... And it's true that Auro-3D doesn't have an extended list of music recordings...you probably already checked.
? http://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/bluray/
 

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